Pay 2 Win in a Free 2 Play MMO is fine because you literally get what you pay for. Someone has to pay in order for those games to exist. Nothing in a commercial F2P game is actually free.
However, if you are a subscription MMO, which Pantheon is going to be, then paying for anything that is considered a benefit is a big no-no. I'm even against paying for cosmetic items. I want to see what gear really looks like. If they ever add that, please give me a way to turn OFF viewing what other people bought.
Kilsin said: If you sell raid spots with our own in-game currency, that is a different story altogether but any form of RWT (Real World Trading) will result in action being taken against the person(s) violating our ToS.
I could see this kind of policy effecting streamers. It's quite common on twitch for streamers to group with viewers who donate money. Some of them even make an official set amount, "You donate $25 you get 1 hour of play with me, or 4 hours for $85."
So what Kilsin is saying is that with Pantheon this could get the streamer banned from the game.
And then there is the possibility that the streamer doesn't actually do this on purpose.
Instead he just has a 'viewer game night' and decides to group with some of this viewers for a few hours of fun without asking for any compensation. He's just having fun with his viewers. He might even swap in/out many players throughout the night. Then after playing with somebody, that viewer decides... "hey I had fun, I think I'll donate some money". Then somebody else see's this and complains saying "Hey that guy is paying him to group up!" and reports it to VR... VR sends somebody to watch the VOD of his twitch and he thinks this 'viewer game night' is just a cover for a 'boosting service' and suddenly the Streamer gets banned because he was just choosing to group with his viewers and one of them decided to donate and it's mistaken for a 'boosting service' according to the rules.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Kilsin said: If you sell raid spots with our own in-game currency, that is a different story altogether but any form of RWT (Real World Trading) will result in action being taken against the person(s) violating our ToS.
I could see this kind of policy effecting streamers. It's quite common on twitch for streamers to group with viewers who donate money. Some of them even make an official set amount, "You donate $25 you get 1 hour of play with me, or 4 hours for $85."
So what Kilsin is saying is that with Pantheon this could get the streamer banned from the game.
And then there is the possibility that the streamer doesn't actually do this on purpose.
Instead he just has a 'viewer game night' and decides to group with some of this viewers for a few hours of fun without asking for any compensation. He's just having fun with his viewers. He might even swap in/out many players throughout the night. Then after playing with somebody, that viewer decides... "hey I had fun, I think I'll donate some money". Then somebody else see's this and complains saying "Hey that guy is paying him to group up!" and reports it to VR... VR sends somebody to watch the VOD of his twitch and he thinks this 'viewer game night' is just a cover for a 'boosting service' and suddenly the Streamer gets banned because he was just choosing to group with his viewers and one of them decided to donate and it's mistaken for a 'boosting service' according to the rules.
Not really the same thing. Streamers have people pay to play with them (I don't get it, but different strokes), they aren't selling or trading anything within the game or that VR has otherwise created.
Kilsin said:Real World TRading and buying accounts, gold, boosting services will be strictly against our ToS and appropriate action would be taken if we can catch them, this is where you guys come in to help too by reporting them and not partaking in these services.
The more people that buy their gold, services and give them money, the bigger they will get and the more they will spread in our game.
Excellent, that's the response I wanted to see! No real life currency should be exchanged for anything in game, it damages the integrity of the game and cheapens the experience.
BamBam said: @Kalok Streamers are marketing Pantheon, you are not, by selling a raid spot. Like YouTube are a marketing tool for VR. sure other ppl make their content, and earn some scraps from each view. But pantheon is getting more attention, this way. So it's worth it for VR also. You selling a few raid spots to provide for you self alone? And to market to whom? Seems not worth it form a marketing standpoint. And what about your guild, they also get paid? I for one would not want to carry ppl through content each week to provide loot and sell it, and our guild master takes the cash :) If you want to live from gaming, do it by streaming or make a YouTube channel with a focus on raid guideing - it seems like your great at that, maybe ppl will like and you earn up 50$ that way?
We do/My guild does. We post to YouTube and make money. Is VR going to stop this too? Then they should have already started, but instead have gone the other way and have encouraged streamers, who make make money from the VR IP. Doesn’t seem fair to pick and choose. Me putting my raids (strats) on YouTube is not different than some streamer getting PA access and making money off VR now.
Kilsin said:Kittik said:Kalok said:Kittik said:So....
I'm going to raid and I'm going to do it at a high level. I also know that I will sell raid spots. (I've done it before) If I'm not breaking any of the EULA, and not abusing any systems in the game and have a market for people who want to pay me/my guild, whats the issue?
Plus, if the game is successful enough and good enough to create a true market IRL then thats a very good sign of the games stenght, depth and future.
Kilsin has already stated that you would be violating it.
No he hasn't. I won't sell money, I won't sell loot, I won't sell anything in game nor will I ask them to give me anything in game. I will sell my knowledge of the game to make money outside of the game. People pay to progress their character. I do nothing inside the game in violation of any rules. It's no different than if I have my friend sit down next to me, we log into our seperate accounts and I give him a raid spot in my raid. For this he hands me $50. This is essentally what I'm doing. Just online, via PayPal or Venmo or any other number of pay sites. No one here is crying foul to any of the streamers who make money from Pantheon already. Beleive it or not streamers get paid the more people that view their channels. So if they have Pantheon on, and it brings in viewers, they make money....from Pantheon...and it's not a bad thing for VR to have a game that is that good that people are willing to do that, or pledge to higher tiers, or donate to YouTube Channel, or FanSites etc. Nor is it a bad thing to think your product is so good it creates jobs.
Selling anything within our IP would be a direct violation of our ToS and appropriate action would be taken. If you sell raid spots with our own in-game currency, that is a different story altogether but any form of RWT (Real World Trading) will result in action being taken against the person(s) violating our ToS.
Is there a way you can stop me from inviting people to my raids? Listen, I know I’m sounding like an ass in this thread, but these are situations and circumstances that will pop up when 50k people are playing. Figuring it out now might be a better plan than just figuring out as we go. And again, VR should be embracing outside markets rather than fighting them all. Plat farmers, sure bad deal, people who make the game more fun for more people, why hinder them? Me selling a raid spot for money that has nothing to do with the market inside the game should be looked at as a win for the game. If its a game that is that much in demand VR should get ahead of the game and think of ways to make this work for them.
Kittik said:Kilsin said:Kittik said:Kalok said:Kittik said:So....
I'm going to raid and I'm going to do it at a high level. I also know that I will sell raid spots. (I've done it before) If I'm not breaking any of the EULA, and not abusing any systems in the game and have a market for people who want to pay me/my guild, whats the issue?
Plus, if the game is successful enough and good enough to create a true market IRL then thats a very good sign of the games stenght, depth and future.
Kilsin has already stated that you would be violating it.
No he hasn't. I won't sell money, I won't sell loot, I won't sell anything in game nor will I ask them to give me anything in game. I will sell my knowledge of the game to make money outside of the game. People pay to progress their character. I do nothing inside the game in violation of any rules. It's no different than if I have my friend sit down next to me, we log into our seperate accounts and I give him a raid spot in my raid. For this he hands me $50. This is essentally what I'm doing. Just online, via PayPal or Venmo or any other number of pay sites. No one here is crying foul to any of the streamers who make money from Pantheon already. Beleive it or not streamers get paid the more people that view their channels. So if they have Pantheon on, and it brings in viewers, they make money....from Pantheon...and it's not a bad thing for VR to have a game that is that good that people are willing to do that, or pledge to higher tiers, or donate to YouTube Channel, or FanSites etc. Nor is it a bad thing to think your product is so good it creates jobs.
Selling anything within our IP would be a direct violation of our ToS and appropriate action would be taken. If you sell raid spots with our own in-game currency, that is a different story altogether but any form of RWT (Real World Trading) will result in action being taken against the person(s) violating our ToS.
Is there a way you can stop me from inviting people to my raids? Listen, I know I’m sounding like an ass in this thread, but these are situations and circumstances that will pop up when 50k people are playing. Figuring it out now might be a better plan than just figuring out as we go. And again, VR should be embracing outside markets rather than fighting them all. Plat farmers, sure bad deal, people who make the game more fun for more people, why hinder them? Me selling a raid spot for money that has nothing to do with the market inside the game should be looked at as a win for the game. If its a game that is that much in demand VR should get ahead of the game and think of ways to make this work for them.
Well... Based on how much you seem to support that I won't see you long in the game. Good luck with that.
Kittik said:BamBam said: @Kalok Streamers are marketing Pantheon, you are not, by selling a raid spot. Like YouTube are a marketing tool for VR. sure other ppl make their content, and earn some scraps from each view. But pantheon is getting more attention, this way. So it's worth it for VR also. You selling a few raid spots to provide for you self alone? And to market to whom? Seems not worth it form a marketing standpoint. And what about your guild, they also get paid? I for one would not want to carry ppl through content each week to provide loot and sell it, and our guild master takes the cash :) If you want to live from gaming, do it by streaming or make a YouTube channel with a focus on raid guideing - it seems like your great at that, maybe ppl will like and you earn up 50$ that way?We do/My guild does. We post to YouTube and make money. Is VR going to stop this too? Then they should have already started, but instead have gone the other way and have encouraged streamers, who make make money from the VR IP. Doesn’t seem fair to pick and choose. Me putting my raids (strats) on YouTube is not different than some streamer getting PA access and making money off VR now.
They don't care about things that have nothing to do with inside of the game and what they have worked on. They don't care what you do on Youtube.
If is THEIR IP so they are well withing their rights to "pick and choose" what they allow and disallow. They don't give two shits if you put your raid streams on Youtube.
Back when I used to play Lineage2 there was literally an alliance against the gold farmers on our server. It was hilarious because they were korean so we never knew what they were saying haha. We used to mess with their farm bots and stuff lol. Every once in a while a high level naked dwarf would come and drop a train on you or something lol.
Iksar said: Not really the same thing. Streamers have people pay to play with them (I don't get it, but different strokes), they aren't selling or trading anything within the game or that VR has otherwise created.
But this is exactly what a boosting service does: You pay them to come play with you. Kilsin basically said "If you pay them in game gold to play with you: that is fine. If you pay them using real world money to play with you: that is not fine and is against the ToS."
If they had an exception for streamers getting donations to play with their viewers, what's to stop a boosting services from just streaming while they boost you and claim "I'm just a streamer playing with a viewer who donated!"
And these kinds of services would not just offer leveling services, but would offer farming items with you too. So this fake 'streamer' could accept donations to join his group farming the 'Rare Item' that said viewer is interested in.
So the ToS is going to apply to streamers too, even if it's not the reason for the rule.
What I was warning about is the fact that Streamers may need to be careful about grouping with any of their viewers even if they don't ask them to donate. Because a griefer viewer could play with the streamer and then 'donate' a few dollars and essentially making the innocent situation appear to be against the ToS and then they could anonymously report it to VR that the streamer is getting paid to boost... and could get the streamer banned from the game.
Kilsin said:Kittik said:Kalok said:Kittik said:
Selling anything within our IP would be a direct violation of our ToS and appropriate action would be taken. If you sell raid spots with our own in-game currency, that is a different story altogether but any form of RWT (Real World Trading) will result in action being taken against the person(s) violating our ToS.
So as I understand it, Kittik, If you are running a raid in game and you have a guild and you need to fill spots or have a full raid ready to go but have players willing to step out of raid so you can sell spots in raid for in game currency, like coppers, you can. So you can form a raid, pick a target and then say to a member in the raid- ok manouk, please step out because I sold your spot to Soandso for 10 coppers. You boot me out of raid and invite Soandso and he pays you 10 coppers. 10 coppers is the currency dropped in game. Or Manouk offers 11 coppers to stay in the raid and the bidding begins untill all members in the raid have offered the highest price to kittik to keep their position in raid if they can afford it.
How loot is handled, how membership is retained, why manouk then mopes about farming spider silks and esoteric things like loyalty or fun are irrelevant to the discussion and are periphery.
Kalok said:They don't care about things that have nothing to do with inside of the game and what they have worked on. They don't care what you do on Youtube.
If is THEIR IP so they are well withing their rights to "pick and choose" what they allow and disallow. They don't give two shits if you put your raid streams on Youtube.
You're blind devotion and fervent fellowship to the game is admirable, but useless, if not actually damaging to the game.
Communities, companies and developers needs to stop rejecting opposing views just because it's not a match to the shinning picture they have in their minds.
Listening understanding and working towards a plausable resolution that could benifit the company more than just waving torches and pitchfolks might actually be good for something.
I'm playing the devils advocate in this thread. None of the stuff I have saidis something I'd do. I'm not that hardcore of a gamer. And I'm way to lazy to do that much work. However, someone isn't as lazy and many are more hardcore and many will find a way to do exactly what I've said is possible regardless if Kilsen says "TOS".
Nothing I've mentioned can be stopped via a TOS. Know what a TOS is? It's a worded agreement. Know how much force a worded agreement has at stopping an action if someone has decided to do it? Zero. After actions can be taken if the violator is caugt, but that is a lot of ifs. And if a person sees more of a personnal gain then potential lose, they will proceed with that action. One issues companies have is that it takes a lot of resouces to find, follow, track and convict the people doing this. AND if these transactions take place outside of the game VR doesn't have jurisdicition to do anything to anyone. They would have almost zero chance of catching someone and if they did, not even a semi-itelligent person who would say "Oh yes, I was selling goods or services in direct violation of your TOS outside the game for inside the game advantages." Can they ban or suspend accounts without cause? Maybe, if thats what their TOS says but again, someone who's going to do it, is going to do it regardless.
My point in this thread and my stance has been to push back against the mob mentality of the community and to press VR about what they plan on doing when these situations arise, and my single instance where the perpatrator is know (me) and VR's stance and policy is all of "Our TOS, you bad, grrr" but thats not going to cut it against the dozens if not hunreds of people who (won't make themselves known) are going to be doing exactly what I'm menioning when the game goes live.
So instead of wasting resouces to the anti cheat team, they could look at other avenues. Taxes, tarifs, opening markets for this and letting it be known that they know it's going to happen and they have resouces designed to help facilitate it, that way it's tracked, regulated and gives VR an actual cut of the profits.
IDK, that soulds too much like a Marketplaces (which I hate) but I also hated seeing what happened to WoW, EQ with websited that ruined the in game economey and GW2 and EQ2 where the addition of a marketplaces ruined the game as a whole.
Kittik said:Kalok said:They don't care about things that have nothing to do with inside of the game and what they have worked on. They don't care what you do on Youtube.
If is THEIR IP so they are well withing their rights to "pick and choose" what they allow and disallow. They don't give two shits if you put your raid streams on Youtube.
You're blind devotion and fervent fellowship to the game is admirable, but useless, if not actually damaging to the game.
Communities, companies and developers needs to stop rejecting opposing views just because it's not a match to the shinning picture they have in their minds.
Listening understanding and working towards a plausable resolution that could benifit the company more than just waving torches and pitchfolks might actually be good for something.
I'm playing the devils advocate in this thread. None of the stuff I have saidis something I'd do. I'm not that hardcore of a gamer. And I'm way to lazy to do that much work. However, someone isn't as lazy and many are more hardcore and many will find a way to do exactly what I've said is possible regardless if Kilsen says "TOS".
Nothing I've mentioned can be stopped via a TOS. Know what a TOS is? It's a worded agreement. Know how much force a worded agreement has at stopping an action if someone has decided to do it? Zero. After actions can be taken if the violator is caugt, but that is a lot of ifs. And if a person sees more of a personnal gain then potential lose, they will proceed with that action. One issues companies have is that it takes a lot of resouces to find, follow, track and convict the people doing this. AND if these transactions take place outside of the game VR doesn't have jurisdicition to do anything to anyone. They would have almost zero chance of catching someone and if they did, not even a semi-itelligent person who would say "Oh yes, I was selling goods or services in direct violation of your TOS outside the game for inside the game advantages." Can they ban or suspend accounts without cause? Maybe, if thats what their TOS says but again, someone who's going to do it, is going to do it regardless.
My point in this thread and my stance has been to push back against the mob mentality of the community and to press VR about what they plan on doing when these situations arise, and my single instance where the perpatrator is know (me) and VR's stance and policy is all of "Our TOS, you bad, grrr" but thats not going to cut it against the dozens if not hunreds of people who (won't make themselves known) are going to be doing exactly what I'm menioning when the game goes live.
So instead of wasting resouces to the anti cheat team, they could look at other avenues. Taxes, tarifs, opening markets for this and letting it be known that they know it's going to happen and they have resouces designed to help facilitate it, that way it's tracked, regulated and gives VR an actual cut of the profits.
IDK, that soulds too much like a Marketplaces (which I hate) but I also hated seeing what happened to WoW, EQ with websited that ruined the in game economey and GW2 and EQ2 where the addition of a marketplaces ruined the game as a whole.
It must suck mistaking FACTS rpesented by multiple people, INCLUDING the makers of the game for "blind devotion". Byt hey. Don't let that get in the way of your story. I would say it will be fun grouping with you, but you will be gettting banned for trading real world money for in-game loot, so probably not.
Kittik your suggestion has been tried in multiple MMOs, it doesn't help. You already mentioned the EQ2 Marketplaces and you know they did not work, at least if we are saying their purpose was to curb gold selling etc. Since the approach you have mentioned has already been tried and has failed just as badly (I would argue it failed even worse) as outright bans, the solution is to create a system where you can more easily track the actions of the players and allocate the data in such a fashion as to dish out the bans in rapid succession. The goal is not to take a cut of the profits of this game destroying activity of real life money for in game gold...the goal is to destroy the business of those RMT players entirely. There will be difficult cases where VR may look like the bad guy when they ban somebody. Some of the RMT guys run a slick operation like you say, and GoofyWarriorGuy is correct that they may even try to hide the activity as "Streamers". They are not going to catch every single person doing it, certainly not right away especially if they run an elaborate operation to obfiscate the trades. The TOS is the means by which they have to ban you on their own discretion so it is not useless...it servers a purpose. Some game companies refund you money if they permaban you while others don't. But the bottom line is VR would be well served by perma-banning/deleting RMT accounts.
I look at it this way: thieves constantly upgrade their tools and techniques to steal. So enforcing the law gets tougher as the thieves up their game. That doesn't mean law enforcement should just let them steal and demand a cut!! That's just flat out corruption. Law enforcement has to constantly upgrade their operation and keep hammering away. Surrendering to the criminals (RMT companies) is not an option if you want any sort of integrity in the game.
