Chris talked on this when the monk girl asked the question about class customization.
I thought it was super interesting that he said you can have different abilities people who play the same class might not (yet) have.
Do we know if the ability to find these random abilities are going to be a loot thing, or class specific gained ability some way. Still...super cool.
As far as I know there isn't much info on this yet. The idea of finding a sage-like master who has advanced knowledge of your class has been mentioned. I really like this idea, but I also like the idea of certain abilities, such as spells, being found out in the open world (in chests that require keys; off of boss-type monsters; super low drop rate on certain mob types; etc.). Maybe the "epic ability" quests will weave in some dugeon crawling/chest hunting aspects, as well as traversing some nasty zones/bosses.
Kittik said:Chris talked on this when the monk girl asked the question about class customization.
I thought it was super interesting that he said you can have different abilities people who play the same class might not (yet) have.
Do we know if the ability to find these random abilities are going to be a loot thing, or class specific gained ability some way. Still...super cool.
So far, wwhat they've said that they'd like to see is that some, like spells, would be loot, and some, llike skills, would be trained.
I also loved the idea of this. I honestly would love it if some spells could be learned from different NPCs, Discoveries, etc. but they may not be in the same place for a different person.
Like Tiamat would teach Elves "Lava drop" but would teach Humans "Fire Pool" etc. if humans wanted to learn "lava drop" they would need to find it some other way, be it a drop or from a different NPC.
(would just make things more interesting since so many spoilers are on the webs) : (spell names are made up, just showing an example) Jus sayin, they could have a lot of fun with this.
I would mention that Pantheon also has to be careful with this. I don't wanna see groups looking for a wizard like this: "Looking for Wizard dps, must have Fire Pool to join... "
I agree that things like this, especially tying in to perception to make that system more useful, would be good.
Of course, this need not, and in my opinion should not, be the only way to make one character in a particular class a bit different from another.
Occasionally giving a choice between two abilities when you level and gain a new ability is not at all inconsistant with finding new abilities in the world. Thus at level 30 a mage-class might get a 5% increase to damage done by fire magic or a 5% bonus to damage done by cold magic. Or a specialization point to be used on a specialization table. Or perhaps the epcialization table only kicks in at level-cap to gave maximized characters an incentive to keep getting experience. The downside being that groups may sometimes take only the character that specialzed the "right" way. This has been debated in other threads and I don't want it debated here - I just mention this to make the point that the good ideas about learning abilities in the world should not in and of themselves rule out other forms of customization.
I hope that there will be some kind of cap on epic abilities (like max three epic abilities for character),
because if you can (in theory) get all the epic abilities , it eliminates choice, you will be forced to have all of them, and then it will be the "end game" norm and everyone without full ability set on their skill bar will not be welcomed to endgame and it will be "pantheon gearscore", and very weak meta game. i.e.
"[GENERAL]lf2 people for group, only epic decks apply"...
etc...
but, if you can have only three epic abilities out of ten abilities on the skill bar, then you can really have "soft roles" inside the class.
for example some warrior will take shield and defence epic abilities, and some warrior will prefer AOE aggro epic abilities, and some wariors will choose 'DPS only' epic abilities, it will be an expansion of the skill tree ( if such exist) and allow more choice and flexibility.
Either everyone will have them, or everyone will have them eventually. =P
It's great in theory, and makes for great print/press, but unless there is real/designed shortage and a hard-coded inability for paying customers to get these things, and/or gated behind Vex Thal Key type quests, 99% of the players will be the same, skill/spell-wise, at max level.
EQ2 had a similar issue with Master versions of skills. It took time and in-game currency, but eventually, you could get them all, even as a casual player.
Personally? I much preferred the Vanguard method, where you had to observe NPCs performing skills/spells to learn them. That, at least, kept content relavent as the title ages, by making alts continue to consume the content where those spells/skills are demonstrated, as the only method to acquire them.
Project Gorgon has this concept of obtaining faction/favor with trainers. It's... unpleasant in their implementation, especially in the higher levels. Hopefully Visionary Realms doesn't go to that extreme.
Mathir said:EQ1 did this with spells (which are essentially abilities). I thought it worked well. Some were drops, some were quests, some were crafted. The Shadowknight level 48 life tap you had to seek out the guy and quest for was a lot of work.
Yes I loved that kind of stuff in EQ. The original WoW had some of that in the form of the class quests also. Much better than just automatically learning the abilities or having trainers give you everything. This is the kind of RPG element I want to see again, and see more of.
@vjek You have the right of it. As the majority of us want Pantheon to be long lasting then game design decisions need to be based on power over long periods of time.
If there is no limit to the number of epic abilities a character can acquire then the expectation will become that you must have them all. If these epic abilities are in turn gated behind open world raid content then they will quickly become exclusive to the racer raid guilds. They will also become prime target for real money transfer sites.
If instead each character can only learn 3 out of the 10 epic abilities for their class then the ones they have will matter. Additionally if those different epic abilities interact with character stats in differing ways then you could pick complementary epic abilities that draw from the same key stats and gear accordingly though you may loose versatility.
Additionally I would not have any epic abilities require specific item drops unless it was a guaranteed drop if you were on the agro table when something died. Gating very important abilities behind ultra low availability is brutal. Much better to require killing 100 dragons of 10 different dragon tribes than having a 1in 4 drop chance that the entire raid party wants every time you kill a dragon boss. The more interesting the completion conditions the better.
As far as I can tell this is far from a unique idea I have played at least 2 games that have done this. (EQ and Guild Wars) I did not play GW long enough to really have much of an opinion but in EQ I did. What I did not like about it in EQ was it required raiding to get many of the spells. While I was in a raiding guild I never got any of my spells to drop so the guild ended up buying it for me. While I am sure you could make it no trade to solve the selling aspect it still would have required a whole raid to go after a mob they had no interest in other then to get one wizard a spell. But as I am sure this would be the case for many they would rather buy it then to do content they no longer had interest in.
I am fine with the best gear requiring the hardest content like a raid but for abilities I personally would prefer it only requiring a group. But this might have a lot to do with my interest in raiding waning all together.
I have no problem with the best gear being from raid bosses. Though I think high end crafted gear should be able to come close.
I do have a problem with character abilities coming from raid bosses. Many of us do not raid and this is not a raid-focused game any more than it is a solo play focused game.
It will be best if abilities come from exploring and finding things - perhaps out of the way trainers. One may say that a week after release there will be sites that give the exact location of every trainer. But this assumes that trainers are in the same places each time. Perhaps trainers will randomly appear for a particular character after it visits 25 locations out of a list of 50 non-obvious locations. Perhaps a 10% chance the trainer will pop up each additional location (26, 27, 28 etc) visited.
It may then take *two* weeks for the site to list all 50 locations bit even so finding the trainer will not be trivial.
So what is the difference between the best gear dropping from a raid and the best ability dropping from a raid? Both create a disparity between raiders and non raiders. Really these types of concerns lead me back to my big question for Pantheon: is this going to be a raid centric MMORPG? If it isn't then the best gear should not drop in raids and neither should the best skills/spells. I have read multiple times that Pantheon is a "group centric" MMORPG but if the best stuff drops in raids that will make it "raid centric" by default. Players will be striving to do raids if that is where the best gear drops so at that point what is the harm of having the best abilities found in the raid content? I am hoping VR understands that part of making a group centric game is making sure the disparity between group and raid characters is small or nonexistent.
Ziegfried said:So what is the difference between the best gear dropping from a raid and the best ability dropping from a raid? Both create a disparity between raiders and non raiders. Really these types of concerns lead me back to my big question for Pantheon: is this going to be a raid centric MMORPG? If it isn't then the best gear should not drop in raids and neither should the best skills/spells. I have read multiple times that Pantheon is a "group centric" MMORPG but if the best stuff drops in raids that will make it "raid centric" by default. Players will be striving to do raids if that is where the best gear drops so at that point what is the harm of having the best abilities found in the raid content? I am hoping VR understands that part of making a group centric game is making sure the disparity between group and raid characters is small or nonexistent.
I am not sure I can explain it. I am used to never having the best gear and in a lot of ways it gives me hope that each day I might get a better piece of gear. But to not have all my abilities for a class felt more like a personal failure. The sad thing is some of the abilities in EQ for the wizard were hardly even used once I got them.
One of the things that got me excited about Pantheon that it is going to be group centric not raid or solo. I hope I am not tainting my expectations by my own hopes.
vjek said:Personally? I much preferred the Vanguard method, where you had to observe NPCs performing skills/spells to learn them. That, at least, kept content relavent as the title ages, by making alts continue to consume the content where those spells/skills are demonstrated, as the only method to acquire them.
I have never played Vanguard but this sounds awesome.
vjek said:It was pretty awesome, and I don't know why, even optionally, they're not including it with Pantheon. It really felt like you were out there interacting with the Environment.
It really did give you that sense of 'learning through experience' and, at least for a time, did differentiate one person from another.
Just a couple thoughts...
dorotea said: I have no problem with the best gear being from raid bosses. Though I think high end crafted gear should be able to come close. I do have a problem with character abilities coming from raid bosses. Many of us do not raid and this is not a raid-focused game any more than it is a solo play focused game.
It has never clearly been stated that any abilities will drop from Raid level bosses. It's only been suggested that some abilities may come from drops. Maybe they are thinking Raid bosses, but maybe these could be from rare spawn mobs that are relatively easy to defeat, if you can find them. I would hope that if they do put abilities dropping from Raid Tier bosses, they will balance non-raid content so that the 'raid level abilities' are not a requirement.
Ziegfried said: So what is the difference between the best gear dropping from a raid and the best ability dropping from a raid? Both create a disparity between raiders and non raiders.
I think this is partially VR's outlook. They are treating some abilities like they are gear upgrades. You go out adventuring for Gear. In Pantheon you also go out adventuring for Abilities. So if you can obtain 'Raid level Gear' it's logical that they could also have 'Raid level Abilities'.
starblight said: I am not sure I can explain it. I am used to never having the best gear and in a lot of ways it gives me hope that each day I might get a better piece of gear. But to not have all my abilities for a class felt more like a personal failure.
Well... if you end up playing on my server, feel free to hit me up to help you hunt for those spells so we can fill your Living Codex.
The hunt for abilities is actually one of the primary things VR is doing that makes Pantheon different than more modern MMO's. People have come to expect that your 'abilities' or 'spells' are just a product of leveling up. You gain level 10, you get the level 10 abilities. When you reach level 50 you get the level 50 abilities. It's become expected that each class should just have all their abilities or spells. But when it's suggested that you might have to 'go out and find abilities' (as the title of this thread states) suddenly people start saying to themselves "Um... I'm not sure I like that..."
This is fair, you don't have to like everything. But VR has never hidden the fact that this was their plan from the start. This is one of those core tenants of the game.
Let me point you to The Pantheon Difference page. Where it reads:
"In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower."
This is not a new idea that's only now being brought up in the streams. Pantheon has always considered the hunt for Abilities to be just as much a part of the adventure as the hunt for Armour and Weapons.
I am not saying that you must like this. You are free to have your opinions on the matter. But while VR has said time and again that they want our community feedback, and they do listen to our feedback. There are also core Tenents that will not change.
In the recent stream with Alexentual, Kidritch, and Mrhapp1227 Joppa spoke on exactly this concept:
1:00:58 Joppa says: "You want to see developers listen to feedback, and you want Developers that are true to the core vision that you got behind in the first place. Most of the people that are interested in Pantheon are interested because of the Tenants of the game and what we've already communicated publicly really matters to us and what we are intent on doing. So while listening to the community is something that we do and have done, and anyone who is listening who is part of the VIP testing process you know how much we listen and there are things we have done along the way that are very much related to community feedback; but there is also something to be said for the things we have said matter to us, the kind of game we said we are going to make, we are going to stick to that and stay true to that. Because the industry needs games that are able to come out and say 'This is what we are going to be' and then they come out that way. And they are that experience. So that's absolutely what we are committed to."
Since this 'Go out and find abilities' has been part of The Pantheon Difference (linked above) and never hidden. You can be sure this is one of those parts of the game that they are committed to. As Joppa said 'This is what we are going to be' and then the game should come out that way.
Ziegfried said: Really these types of concerns lead me back to my big question for Pantheon: is this going to be a raid centric MMORPG? If it isn't then the best gear should not drop in raids and neither should the best skills/spells. I have read multiple times that Pantheon is a "group centric" MMORPG but if the best stuff drops in raids that will make it "raid centric" by default. Players will be striving to do raids if that is where the best gear drops so at that point what is the harm of having the best abilities found in the raid content? I am hoping VR understands that part of making a group centric game is making sure the disparity between group and raid characters is small or nonexistent.
Starblight said: One of the things that got me excited about Pantheon that it is going to be group centric not raid or solo. I hope I am not tainting my expectations by my own hopes.
As I mentioned before, Raiding is planned to be part of the game. Perhaps the two of you are not planning to participate in Raids, which is fine. So I will just say that VR is also planning to have lots of content at all levels and difficulties that should keep you enjoying the game even if you don't decide to do any Raiding.
There are though many players who do really love raids, and will be excited about the raiding in Pantheon. This also means there will also be rewards to raids, which mostly come in the form of loot. Which mean that Raiders are going to have better loot than non-raiders.
There is a point made in the Game Tenents page: "An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
Now of course not all 'lack of action' is due to Apathy... sometimes it's just because you don't have the time to Raid. But if you choose not to Raid, you won't get the 'rewards' that come from raids.
I also want to bring up 4 points regarding raiding that you might want to consider.
1) Raids are Groups.
Somewhere along the way, people have gotten the idea that when VR says that Pantheon is a 'Group' game that this means a limited group of 6 players and that all of the game is centered around that one group of 6 people. But this is a misconception to assume that all of the game is designed to be consumed in such a limited way. Yes, VR has said that most of the content will be balanced for a single group of 6 people, but they have also committed to multi-group Raid content. And multiple groups is just a larger group. Not all players will choose to participate in Raids, but that does not mean they are not part of the games vision.
To quote The Pantheon Difference again:
"the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play." Nowhere does this say this is limited to 6 characters.
"You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize." Suggesting content designed for guilds not just groups.
2) Raiding does not always require mutli groups.
When we talk about the word 'Raid' this often takes on the image of massive groups of people taking on a Mega Enemy. But this is not always the case. Joppa recently spoke about wanting there to be 'Raid Tier content' designed for a single group. This means that it will be balanced to be difficult enough that not just any group who happens by can take it on, but instead will require a very prepared team, with adequate gear and high levels of communication and strategy to overcome.
3) Raiding does not only need to happen at Max level.
One of the things that VR has talked about with Pantheon is the concept of 'Raid level content' for players throughout the leveling process. This may be single group or multi-group balanced. But it will be 'Raid Tier' difficulty that requires that prepared team I mentioned in the last point. It will be interesting to see if they may choose to prevent higher level groups from coming in to fight a lower level Raid Boss. And if they do... how will they do this. Disposition maybe. We will have to wait and see what they decide.
4) Raiding is not something that will be 'tacked on' just to appease the 'hard core' players.
Right from the beginning, VR had plans for raiding. In the MMORPG interview Joppa said: "We began our whole world building process with the committment to have three raid zones designed and conceptualized and planned and gone through pre-production and all those things from the beginning. That's a Raid 'Zone' not just an encounter, but full zones that are devoted to raid content with several points of that Apex raid encounters within them. That's something that we are committed too. It's something that when Pantheon launches there are already three raid zones planned, conceptualized and ready for players to tackle. Then staying on top of that will be really important as well."
One neat tidbit that came from the recent stream last friday was this part: 37:58 where Joppa was talking about having other incentives to raiding. More than just getting Gear. One idea he suggested is that by completing a Raid boss, this could trigger a faction to be applied to you that will now cause an NPC that never interacted with you in the past to now speak to you. As Joppa puts it "It unlocks seemingly mundane things".
Flapp said:I also loved the idea of this. I honestly would love it if some spells could be learned from different NPCs, Discoveries, etc. but they may not be in the same place for a different person.
Like Tiamat would teach Elves "Lava drop" but would teach Humans "Fire Pool" etc. if humans wanted to learn "lava drop" they would need to find it some other way, be it a drop or from a different NPC.
(would just make things more interesting since so many spoilers are on the webs) : (spell names are made up, just showing an example) Jus sayin, they could have a lot of fun with this.
I would mention that Pantheon also has to be careful with this. I don't wanna see groups looking for a wizard like this: "Looking for Wizard dps, must have Fire Pool to join... "
I too hope this is the case.
Because that reply was rather large GWG I will not be quoting it verbatim. However I take issue with the points you made. Most people who have played MMOs for any period of time will agree a raid consists of more than a single group. Always has. Multiple groups is not merely a larger group this is downplaying the amount of time and effort involved...multiple groups means far more coordination is required, far more time is required to setup the encounter and recover from wipe outs, etc. Multi group aka raid content is hardcore content by design! I've raided quite a bit in MMORPGs and I am fine with doing raid content in Pantheon, but that is not my primary motivation for playing this game. Pantheon is described as a group focused MMORPG and in most of our minds that means single group content is the focus. When raid gear is significantly better than group gear it will create the power issues we have seen in every single MMORPG that has used that model the raid content will end up being considered mandatory in order to acquire the best gear, that's how it works. The answer to this is to only offer unique weapon/armor graphics rather than insanely higher stats on the gear that drops. Extra faction stuff is cool with me too though I'm not sure how others will interpret that.
Raiding before max level is something I don't understand, especially for an MMORPG that is supposedly group focused. And when I say group focused I mean a single group. My concern is that many players will be looking foward to one thing and getting another thing entirely. Three raid zones already planned?! I just don't want people getting the wrong idea...so the next question is what kind of gear disparity are we going to see between "Single Group" content and "Multi Group" content? It sounds like Pantheon will move into a raid heavy design as time goes on if there's already 3 entire raid zones planned.
MyNegation said:I hope that there will be some kind of cap on epic abilities (like max three epic abilities for character),
because if you can (in theory) get all the epic abilities , it eliminates choice, you will be forced to have all of them, and then it will be the "end game" norm and everyone without full ability set on their skill bar will not be welcomed to endgame and it will be "pantheon gearscore", and very weak meta game. i.e.
"[GENERAL]lf2 people for group, only epic decks apply"...
etc...
Huh? You hope there is a cap on number of epics someone can learn but voice a concern of people possibly only looking for people with all epics or being forced to have all of them...but then you advocate for a limit to how many can be learned and forced "choices" which would do nothing to stop exclusion and would in fact only make things worse for players who, in the former system, could remedy their situation but in the latter they are just permantently screwed/excluded if they don't pick correctly.
