I'm rarely critical of Pantheon and rarely am I one to yell about something I heard about regarding the game, typically because I understand the method to the madness and the style of game they're building. However, the idea of class differentiation in Pantheon but also through games in years past, when using certain methods, those methods have to have a structured feel within the class itself. For example, the question came up again and was answered like this...
"1:08:53 - 1:11:27 - Jessica asks about Classes being able to customize themselves. Also mentioning Class identity within Roles. Joppa refers to a ‘soft specialization’ where you choose which abilities you have ready for a fight. You will also be able to go out into the world to find ‘special’ abilities and that will begin to differentiate players because players will have abilities that the base class will not have."
As for ability loadouts in combat, this is a good way to go about it but this is more event based and not class based. For this reason, it's more a flavor in how you play and less in how you build your class.
As for the latter part of his answer, by creating skills, epic abilities etc., that require you to venture out as a means of standing out is simply NOT a way to manage how a class will be different from another. This is similar to Everquest where they borrowed a D&D mechanic where racial bonuses were balanced with experience penalties. That works in D&D because the relative playstyle of the Pen & Paper game and even then felt a bit dispositioned. That was altered in the popularized D&D video games such as Baulder's Gate and others because of the way the mechanics within it worked. Experience penalties in Everquest for instance didn't work, because when you were max level, that penalty had ZERO effect and that class was now at a distinct advantage such as the Iksar Monk vs the Human Monk or even the Ogre Warrior vs the Halfling Warrior. In Pantheon, every class will obtain those useful abilities, you'll have Wikis on it, methods to obtain them in the most efficient way possible, people paying others to help them obtain those abilities, et al.
This is again similar to Everquest where spells were crafted through research, or later quested. Ultimately they didn't differentiate classes, you just entered a group and felt less capable because you didn't have that particular Haste, AE Mez or other spell if I was to use my personal experience. This is as much class differentiation as being properly geared for content. It's tiered capabilities masquerading as customization. You didn't have a strength in another area to make up for that as you were simply missing an aspect of your full potential. Every class will ultimately be the same because they will almost all have the epic or simply quested abilities that Chris mentioned. Everyone will find a way to obtain them in short order. They'll even focus on the ones that are most important, then work down the list.
This was an issue in Everquest with caster classes who simply had no solid form of differentiation and it was accepted at the time because of the era in MMORPGs, but will absolutely NOT be accepted in todays environment of MMO gaming. By relying on gated content to achieve this goal is not a way to go about this. For this reason and I'll stress again, in the end, people will be the same and in the process of leveling, people will feel incomplete, not different.
Pantheon has a system in place that creates the very style of customization that I feel people interested in this game may enjoy. That method is in ability modifiers through statistics. As it was hinted, a person cannot realistically cap more than one stat or attribute. This creates a system allowing for classes to build how they want to play. Take an Enchanter for instance where certain abilities like Charm may rely heavily on your Charisma stat to modify the duration, break chance and potency (If charmed mobs are balanced by creating a limitation in power as it should). Already, Charisma score is said to alter the duration of a mesmerization spell as detailed in the class page. Another method is in your nukes for instance using the Intelligence modifier to alter their potency and damage. Mana regeneration buffs for instance could use Constitution whereas for Hastes to have a gain by a marginal percentage, it would require your Agility score. As to the performance of Agility to Hastes and the Intelligence to Nuke damage, that damage curve for instance can be based on a nominal gradient within that coefficient but also used for all performance based abilities. This creates a structured leveling of dynamics as to allow for balance within that very differentiation sought after by people. That's only a rough example without detailing the breakdown of the coefficients themselves or the customization with other classes. The system is there and there's additionally something in place for more than just stats as for example, Dire Lord has abilities that are modified by a percentage of their total health. You can do the same with AC like with the Cleric or Enchanter by have their particular AC values adjust their shielding spells. Enchanter Runeskin spell for example could be modified by the Enchanter's AC and Constitution.
I'm honestly not sure why this is never brought up when asked about, because it answers the question far better than some 'journey to a mountain to meet an old man' since again that brings you to the gated-differentiation fallacy. If the team used 'ability modifiers within a structured statistical system' as an answer to that question brought up numerous times before, I feel it would better answer what the people are asking for. It would show real actual differentiation within their role throughout the life of their class. Each time I hear the response, it's usually left with silence where you could hear the proverbial pin drop.
I felt it had to be said as there is very much a mechanic in the game that oddly is never talked about. It's also something I feel they should focus on as well regarding this aspect of differentiation within the game. With that said, I'd like to hear from Joppa on this because while I'm amazed by his work thus far and absolutely share his passion, I'm confused why this isn't talked about more or factored into the development cycle as a major point of interest for public consumption. I'd also like to get everyone elses feelings on this because I could very well be wrong in what the majority of the playerbase wants.
I felt similarly. If you haven't done a particular quest or crafted this epic ability, you aren't "customized fully", your class is actually missing key components your future group is going to be seeking. I like the idea of the world having some baring on a class, such as class quests for epic weapons/armor/etc., but to make abilities gates as such, I feel only weakens those who have not done it. Especially with how much more difficult this game is, I would imagine a lot of these will require full fledge groups in order to even obtain.
I don't think they would put abilities that are SO broken, that it would make the classes useless until they get it. I could be wrong, but I find it highly unlikely. They are putting a great deal of effort into planning, and I can tell they are taking hard lessons learned from the past, as well as from other MMOs.
As someone who has dedicated a tremendous amount of time toward theory crafting all things class specialialization in Pantheon ( https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6253/dual-specialization/view/page/14 ), I can say that I am quite pleased with the direction VR is going with soft specialization. An important distinction in this system is that you can bring 2-3 players of the same class to your group/raid and have each one of them functioning quite a bit differently in their respective roles. As far as unlocking new/unique abilities, or upgrades to existing ones, this too is something that I think can be highly fulfilling and meaningful. Some of my favorite MMO memories were of doing something quite similar. Instead of epic weapon quests (though I still want to see these also!), I like to think that there will be many epic spell quests. Rather than having massive step-by-step processes to unlock them, there will likely be faction and/or other requirements involved that allow a more open-ended approach.
All that said, I do not disagree that there is also plenty of potential for differentiation with the stat system. I think these things are directly related. Between situational gear (particularly items that amplify certain stats and their related abilities) and hotbar management (what skills players use at any given point in time) I think there will be a variety of distinctive ways to play each class. More importantly, the art of collecting these special abilities and ability upgrades provides an avenue for fun/meaningful progression in a group-centric game. I think back on my experience in FFXI where the summoner class basically had epic scale quests to unlock some of their espers. The depth of these quests was pretty amazing, and so too was the sense of community that arose from the need for players to work together to help their friends unlock their full potential. When I imagine that same scope of depth being available for each and every class multiple times over, I can really appreciate the direction that things are headed.
Berlock said:I felt similarly. If you haven't done a particular quest or crafted this epic ability, you aren't "customized fully", your class is actually missing key components your future group is going to be seeking. I like the idea of the world having some baring on a class, such as class quests for epic weapons/armor/etc., but to make abilities gates as such, I feel only weakens those who have not done it. Especially with how much more difficult this game is, I would imagine a lot of these will require full fledge groups in order to even obtain.
Precisely. It in no way makes classes different, it simply creates a point where some people are simply missing key aspects to their class. That's not in any way customization.
@oneADseven
"As far as unlocking new/unique abilities, or upgrades to existing ones, this too is something that I think can be highly fulfilling and meaningful. Some of my favorite MMO memories were of doing something quite similar. Instead of epic weapon quests (though I still want to see these also!), I like to think that there will be many epic spell quests. Rather than having massive step-by-step processes to unlock them, there will likely be faction and/or other requirements involved that allow a more open-ended approach."
Which I can understand but like epics in Everquest, they didn't create customization or class differentiation. It was outside of that concept and into having a particular effect or not or in some cases a status. It will be the same with epic abilities and such.
"All that said, I do not disagree that there is also plenty of potential for differentiation with the stat system. I think these things are directly related. Between situational gear (particularly items that amplify certain stats and their related abilities) and hotbar management (what skills players use at any given point in time) I think there will be a variety of distinctive ways to play each class."
The part in red is what I'm talking about. If you noticed, some abilities for some classes are aplified by certain stats. Modifiers. If you noticed with abilities a lot of them have the stat modifiers at the bottom of the tooltips. The Enchanter spell Mesmeriation is directly tied to Charisma, meaning the higher your charisma, the longer your Mesmerization lasts. That's precisely what I'm talking about and would like to see. What I'm asking is why this area isn't talked about more and if they could possibly go more deeply into it as currently it's the only form of customization outside of event based skill selection which for many classes like Wizard, you may not see much of.
"More importantly, the art of collecting these special abilities and ability upgrades provides an avenue for fun/meaningful progression in a group-centric game."
I agree, but that's not unique to character customization or differentiation. Again, the issue is about how classes are going to be too similar outside of gearing options which is one of the aspects of EQ that did not age well with regard to the caster classes.
"I think back on my experience in FFXI where the summoner class basically had epic scale quests to unlock some of their espers. The depth of these quests was pretty amazing, and so too was the sense of community that arose from the need for players to work together to help their friends unlock their full potential. When I imagine that same scope of depth being available for each and every class multiple times over, I can really appreciate the direction that things are headed."
I agree to that, but that has nothing to do with class customization or differentiation which was the basis of the questions asked each of those times and as a vital point about a weakness that existed in Everquest. That was one of the weaknesses that should not carry over much like melee classes not having abilities and mainly had auto attack. Those two segments should not carry over.
As I stated above, the system is there. They seem to be touching on it with some abilities where the ability itself is altered in potency by the prescribed statistics in the tooltip. As I also mentioned, a few of them more directly such as the Enchanter having a longer Mesmerization based on Charisma or the Warrior with War Hero where their Charisma allows the class effected to generate less hate. The latter is a bit off from the concept but it's another example where a statistic has a direct effect on an ability.
To me this is a lot of speculation and being a little bit to worried about max optimization, though the points are valid there is some arguements to be made. For example the point about some races are better than others at certain classes yeah that may be true but the difference wasn't game breaking by any means except maybe the Human monk vs Iskar monk. But being a Human in a fantasy world derserves a penalty, we already murder and destroy everything in our own world let some other races get some time to shine hahaha.
The thing about hidden abilities could be a problem but that depends on when you get them, if they are lower level you should be able to go back at a higher level and murder anything in your way no problem. If you can't get your max level abilities at max level you probably just need to think outside the box who said you can only bring a group of people and not a raid. Since this game is uninstanced and classes have all kinds of tricks I imagine there will be plenty of ways to aquire things you just got to be creative. But I think a game should cull the weak to some degree if not to challenge them to become better at their respective classes. I loved the fact that in original Everquest the game itself weeded out the worst of the worst so you didn't have to deal with them later.
As far as making your class unique that is the most valid point and I think you are correct that it could lead to some major problems with certain classes. I don't know how the leveling process works, if you get a certain amount of stat points to allocate when you level up (which I assume is the case) or you get stats automatically based on your race/class. But if its allocating stat points then certain classes like Paladin are going to have some huge problems and the idea of customization will soon be thrown out the window. There is going to end up being a optimal build based on your class which you will be judged on and if they don't make stat rerolling easy a lot of people are going to be broken. I personally don't think a game needs class customization to be fun because 90% of the time its an illusion anyway, but letting people break their classes can be a huge problem especially if it isn't as easy as a click of the button to fix. In the end though this all is just speculation and we have not seen enough of the game to really have a sound argument with full evidence to back it up.
I think if Pantheon has enough real choices that can be made, then it's all fine by me. Class differentiation really just boils down to choices. You should be able to choose how you want to approach a task and your choices should bear consequences.
A limited action set allows you to make choices just as much as a skill-tree does, except that it's limited in scope so as not to allow you to shift your role. All Enchanters will be able to equip the same spells at any moment in time, but their choice of what to equip is a real choice that bears consequences.
Gear choice is a complementary system. You can equip/slot your Charisma gear/spells or equip/slot your Intelligence gear/spells and be different. Their skill acquisition system just means that they are both based on gating, rather than it just being gear. You may not have access to Cha/Int gear/spells at some point in time, but with enough work then all the options are open. The key for me though is that even once you have everything in the game (not that I expect to ever even get close to that point), you can still make relevant choices.
A few ways true specialization has been done in other games:
Gear that provides tangible, significant adjustments (within hard caps) to class-specific abilities. An example would be gear that adjusted any/all aspects of any skill/spell, such as number of targets, recast time, cast time, damage, duration, and so on. Each numeric value in a skill or spell could be adjusted by the player by collecting or creating the right gear. A particular set of completely custom gear for a Rogue, then, could focus on one poison based ability, while another could focus on altering a damage type, or enhancing backstab damage, things like that. Given the 20+ gear slots, there is a tremendous potential for customization within such a system.
There are no public plans for this to be the case with Pantheon. It could be done, and with appropriately tuned hard caps, it could be done very well, and is a solved problem.
Another innovative solution would be to permit the player to use colored mana or a combination of colored mana + consuming XP (as in, you consume XP to customize your character) to make these adjustments permanent, along with a gear sacrifice, at a particular altar.
Otherwise, as you've surmised, Janus, their terms for specialization are not accurate, in practice. Everyone will simply have all the skills, and all the correct gear set(s), and one Warrior will be just the same as the other. While it's true for core abilities, this scenario is ideal, for distinction and that feeling of ownership, the opposite is true. It is entirely possible to have characters that can fulfill their core role and still distinguish themselves with customized skills & spells.
As far as how such a system would be implemented, the concept of how gear is currently created applies. What that means is, certain features of a piece of gear contribute to a Gear-Cap. Per tier and quality, the Gear-Cap restricts the stats and effects that piece of gear has. A simple example would be a piece of white or grey level 10 gear may have a Gear-Cap of 3. That means it could have +2 AC and +1 to Strength. That's it. however, it could also have, maybe +2 STR and +1AC, or, thinking outside the box, -6 CON, +5 STR, +1AC. Certain values may have modifiers that affect their negative weight and/or their positive weight, so it's not always 1:1, but you get the idea.
If desired, you could also tie skill/spell adjustment enchantments of gear to the crafting system, only, both for temporary normal gear and permanent sacrificed effects.
I've watched all the streams to date, the big class specialization and differentiation is going to be player skill. As it should be. And it's going to make a massive gap between talented players of a specific class and those that are less so. Just like EQ1. Thank God.
Yes, I agree with OP that the Devs should be selling their stat/ability custimization aspect more. It does allow for some potentially unique builds, but how extreme is the question. They've stated that stat gear will be hard to come by, and that they are keeping the numbers small. So, how big is the difference on a warrior with 8 charisma versus one with 16 for the War Hero effect? Is it twice as long, twice as strong? If so, we might be talking. If it's just a few seconds longer or a tad bit stronger, than that level of custimization is insignficant, and while there, I would understand why they don't feature it in their discussions.
As for the people complaining about gated abilities at end game. Too bad. It's the same thing with raid drops and melee weapons/armor. A wizard's nuke is the same as a warrior's sword. They'll have less powerful versions available until they get the drop or complete the quest for the epic version. Until then, there are going to be better equipped wizards and warriors running around in comparison. You're not going to be invited to the groups that require that ability. That should be motivation to work on getting it. If you're in a good guild, you'll probably have plenty of groups despite not having the ability and you'll have people to help you get it. I think gated abilites just promotes the social aspect of forcing you to make friends and get in a guild if you ever want to achieve those abilities.
In the immortal words of Joe Dirt, "Keep on, keeping on" VR! You guys are nailing the design aspect so far. Hopefully, the stat modifiers make a significant difference, and if so, I agree with the OP that you should be selling that aspect more when answering questions and doing interviews.
I think this all has to do with tuning. In Everquest, if you didn't have your epic weapons, you did absolutely fine. It wasn't game breaking in anyway. Sure, you would do much more damage if you had it, but it didn't ruin anything, it only made things a little more easier.
A zone/dungeon has a certain skill/gear cap requirement. Sure you can zone in and run around. But you will not successfully and efficiently kill mobs. VR is smart enough to realize that epic weapons and spells shouldn't be required for any content. (possibly certain raids at end game, but I'm sure they'll be rare)
Also, I like the idea of having to explore around and get certain spells in different places. It makes you explore all avenues of content as well as brings back the adventure.
Janus said:I'm rarely critical of Pantheon and rarely am I one to yell about something I heard about regarding the game, typically because I understand the method to the madness and the style of game they're building. However, the idea of class differentiation in Pantheon but also through games in years past, when using certain methods, those methods have to have a structured feel within the class itself. For example, the question came up again and was answered like this...
"1:08:53 - 1:11:27 - Jessica asks about Classes being able to customize themselves. Also mentioning Class identity within Roles. Joppa refers to a ‘soft specialization’ where you choose which abilities you have ready for a fight. You will also be able to go out into the world to find ‘special’ abilities and that will begin to differentiate players because players will have abilities that the base class will not have."
As for ability loadouts in combat, this is a good way to go about it but this is more event based and not class based. For this reason, it's more a flavor in how you play and less in how you build your class.
As for the latter part of his answer, by creating skills, epic abilities etc., that require you to venture out as a means of standing out is simply NOT a way to manage how a class will be different from another. This is similar to Everquest where they borrowed a D&D mechanic where racial bonuses were balanced with experience penalties. That works in D&D because the relative playstyle of the Pen & Paper game and even then felt a bit dispositioned. That was altered in the popularized D&D video games such as Baulder's Gate and others because of the way the mechanics within it worked. Experience penalties in Everquest for instance didn't work, because when you were max level, that penalty had ZERO effect and that class was now at a distinct advantage such as the Iksar Monk vs the Human Monk or even the Ogre Warrior vs the Halfling Warrior. In Pantheon, every class will obtain those useful abilities, you'll have Wikis on it, methods to obtain them in the most efficient way possible, people paying others to help them obtain those abilities, et al.
This is again similar to Everquest where spells were crafted through research, or later quested. Ultimately they didn't differentiate classes, you just entered a group and felt less capable because you didn't have that particular Haste, AE Mez or other spell if I was to use my personal experience. This is as much class differentiation as being properly geared for content. It's tiered capabilities masquerading as customization. You didn't have a strength in another area to make up for that as you were simply missing an aspect of your full potential. Every class will ultimately be the same because they will almost all have the epic or simply quested abilities that Chris mentioned. Everyone will find a way to obtain them in short order. They'll even focus on the ones that are most important, then work down the list.
This was an issue in Everquest with caster classes who simply had no solid form of differentiation and it was accepted at the time because of the era in MMORPGs, but will absolutely NOT be accepted in todays environment of MMO gaming. By relying on gated content to achieve this goal is not a way to go about this. For this reason and I'll stress again, in the end, people will be the same and in the process of leveling, people will feel incomplete, not different.
Pantheon has a system in place that creates the very style of customization that I feel people interested in this game may enjoy. That method is in ability modifiers through statistics. As it was hinted, a person cannot realistically cap more than one stat or attribute. This creates a system allowing for classes to build how they want to play. Take an Enchanter for instance where certain abilities like Charm may rely heavily on your Charisma stat to modify the duration, break chance and potency (If charmed mobs are balanced by creating a limitation in power as it should). Already, Charisma score is said to alter the duration of a mesmerization spell as detailed in the class page. Another method is in your nukes for instance using the Intelligence modifier to alter their potency and damage. Mana regeneration buffs for instance could use Constitution whereas for Hastes to have a gain by a marginal percentage, it would require your Agility score. As to the performance of Agility to Hastes and the Intelligence to Nuke damage, that damage curve for instance can be based on a nominal gradient within that coefficient but also used for all performance based abilities. This creates a structured leveling of dynamics as to allow for balance within that very differentiation sought after by people. That's only a rough example without detailing the breakdown of the coefficients themselves or the customization with other classes. The system is there and there's additionally something in place for more than just stats as for example, Dire Lord has abilities that are modified by a percentage of their total health. You can do the same with AC like with the Cleric or Enchanter by have their particular AC values adjust their shielding spells. Enchanter Runeskin spell for example could be modified by the Enchanter's AC and Constitution.
I'm honestly not sure why this is never brought up when asked about, because it answers the question far better than some 'journey to a mountain to meet an old man' since again that brings you to the gated-differentiation fallacy. If the team used 'ability modifiers within a structured statistical system' as an answer to that question brought up numerous times before, I feel it would better answer what the people are asking for. It would show real actual differentiation within their role throughout the life of their class. Each time I hear the response, it's usually left with silence where you could hear the proverbial pin drop.
I felt it had to be said as there is very much a mechanic in the game that oddly is never talked about. It's also something I feel they should focus on as well regarding this aspect of differentiation within the game. With that said, I'd like to hear from Joppa on this because while I'm amazed by his work thus far and absolutely share his passion, I'm confused why this isn't talked about more or factored into the development cycle as a major point of interest for public consumption. I'd also like to get everyone elses feelings on this because I could very well be wrong in what the majority of the playerbase wants.
Enchanter doesnt differentiate from enchanter, if you want to differentiate from enchanter play rogue, or warrior, or mage, etc. otherwise why have classes, the class in istelf is not to differentiate within the class thats kicking a dead horse because its never going to be good enough as it clearly isnt enough for you that we have 12 classes to choose from as it, all the abilties through events youre talking about is also class differentiating from the base class as should be, you can have people customizing classes because it enables exploiting, or just lame class balancing, being in this field you should know all this.
I Feel that balancing classes has and will always be a challenge. Also giving them abilities to stand out and make them their own and relevent in groups is a challenge without creating an imbalance. My view on this is that you play a class because that is you choice of play style i.e. tank, support, heals.... those classes should be held within the confines of their roles for the group so you dont have wizzies tanking and chanters healing. As far has specific maximization of abilities for that class it comes down to play style aswell. Within your class you adjust your stats to strengthen those abilities that help that play style.(buff, heals, mezzes, nukes) If I raid I will need the highest level for that ability to help my group/raid to succeed, but if I just enjoy dungeon diving and general group play the need for such abilities, although nice, are not neccessary to be competitave in those instances. These are what make the diffrence within classes.
Everyone wants to get the next level gear and abilities and this is something even a casual gamer can strive for. The call for customization so they stand out within your own class should come from solid game play and showing your a great player and having that piece of gear that shows you are a high end player that causes you to stand out. As far as people helping and getting alist to get in order just don't play in this way and do it as pure as possible. You have the choice to exploit a system or take advantage of the game and enjoyment level. There will always be the hardcore speed players who max out in 2 days to get gear to sell. Just stay away with them and enjoy the game the way you wish too. Thats on you!
I do not think that "differentiation" within a given class will play any role and am not even sure if it has added value for most classes so that it would justify added development costs .
The reason is that most classes are archetypes : tank , healer , DPS , CC and Miscelaneous . So any class that falls within an Archetype (Warrior = tank , Wizard = DPS , Cleric = healer etc) will have a unique distribution of stats , skills and abilities which makes them best at that unique Archetype task . I give it no more than 2 months and you'll have dozens of web pages running the numbers and explaining that for the class X this stat/ability is a must while that stat/ability is "useless" . Like in EQ people ran the numbers and f.ex concluded that having charisma over 100 was useless for enchanters .
This leaves then only a handful of classes which don't fall squarely in an Archetype like perhaps monks , shamans and druids . Warriors will all go to minimize damage taken and to keep aggro and won't care about anything else . Wizards will all go to maximize DPS and minimize aggro . Enchanters will all go to maximize mez duration and minimize the breaking probability . Etc . It is not even the matter whether some stat/ability combo is or is not desirable for groups . I think the large majority of players will spontaneously go the same way like everybody else and will be happy if they fulfill their Archetype task at best . What's beyond that is then only the personal skill - some players simply play their class better than others even if they have the same stats/equipment/abilities .
@SoWplz said:
"You mention the class penalty being broken at max level cause a player gets the bonus with out the penalty? I fail to see the problem with that. Yes in the end an ogre warrior is better then a gnome warrior. This did not break the gnome warriors, I saw a lot of them. In 9/10 cases they were inferior to the ogre warrior. Same with skills. I saw some clerics with their fancy group heal, and some did not have group heal. 1 is better then the other, but not broken."
I agree, but that's not customization or class differentiation. That's an issue of progression which is completely separate from any customization.
"Same with bugs and slows. I agree this is not class "Customization " by any means but I myself don't see a major issue with it. Most of the time you will only have 1 class in a group, and those times you have say 2 druids and one has the special rare skill that heals and puts a DS on or whatever the other druid would memorize the DD spells and be on back up heals. A case like that you have just made the same class of 2 player different. I have never been in a group where they asked if you have the latest and great spell and if not you have to leave the group case your character is incomplete. I do not see this breaking any class at all in my opinion."
The game right now, has stat modifiers to abilities. They are in the tooltip meaning statistics would denote a change to their potency. There's even a few class ability descriptions in the class pages that say the respective stat modifies the performance of that ability.
You're delving a bit too much on an example from Everquest which I only used to show that it's a gated-differentiation fallacy. It's a form of progression, it's not a valid type of customization or differentiation. Ultimately my question to the Devs is since the system is in, why isn't it used as an answer when the question comes up, and why isn't the system talked about more in depth as it can be an absolutely huge aspect within the mechanics of the game.
@Vjek
"A few ways true specialization has been done in other games:
Gear that provides tangible, significant adjustments (within hard caps) to class-specific abilities. An example would be gear that adjusted any/all aspects of any skill/spell, such as number of targets, recast time, cast time, damage, duration, and so on. Each numeric value in a skill or spell could be adjusted by the player by collecting or creating the right gear. A particular set of completely custom gear for a Rogue, then, could focus on one poison based ability, while another could focus on altering a damage type, or enhancing backstab damage, things like that. Given the 20+ gear slots, there is a tremendous potential for customization within such a system.
There are no public plans for this to be the case with Pantheon. It could be done, and with appropriately tuned hard caps, it could be done very well, and is a solved problem."
It's currently in Pantheon as ability modifiers. THey are under numerous abilities currently for every class. You even have some abilities in the class pages that detail verbatim that that particular statistic modifies that particular ability, such as the case with Mesmerization being lengthened by a higher Charisma and Constitution score.
"Another innovative solution would be to permit the player to use colored mana or a combination of colored mana + consuming XP (as in, you consume XP to customize your character) to make these adjustments permanent, along with a gear sacrifice, at a particular altar.
Otherwise, as you've surmised, Janus, their terms for specialization are not accurate, in practice. Everyone will simply have all the skills, and all the correct gear set(s), and one Warrior will be just the same as the other. While it's true for core abilities, this scenario is ideal, for distinction and that feeling of ownership, the opposite is true. It is entirely possible to have characters that can fulfill their core role and still distinguish themselves with customized skills & spells."
That could be done, but using colored mana to make hard coded changes to alter a path is more towards hard specialization than hte idea of statistical modifiers currently in the game on abilities which fits closer to soft specialization. Excellent idea about colored mana though.
"As far as how such a system would be implemented, the concept of how gear is currently created applies. What that means is, certain features of a piece of gear contribute to a Gear-Cap. Per tier and quality, the Gear-Cap restricts the stats and effects that piece of gear has. A simple example would be a piece of white or grey level 10 gear may have a Gear-Cap of 3. That means it could have +2 AC and +1 to Strength. That's it. however, it could also have, maybe +2 STR and +1AC, or, thinking outside the box, -6 CON, +5 STR, +1AC. Certain values may have modifiers that affect their negative weight and/or their positive weight, so it's not always 1:1, but you get the idea."
Yeah but that part plays into how the coefficient play out. That would be entirely class dependent and altered in such a way as it allows a better balance of a piece of Cloth gear when used by a Rogue as opposed to an Enchanter. It's all in the modifying principle formula or the coefficient.
"If desired, you could also tie skill/spell adjustment enchantments of gear to the crafting system, only, both for temporary normal gear and permanent sacrificed effects."
Another good idea, although my original topic was about why they aren't talking about the system they have in game. I haven't gotten to the point of outside attribution or systems yet.
@Mathir
"I've watched all the streams to date, the big class specialization and differentiation is going to be player skill. As it should be. And it's going to make a massive gap between talented players of a specific class and those that are less so. Just like EQ1. Thank God."
That's an aspect in EQ that didn't translate well outside including to a game like Pantheon. Much like melee classes only auto-attacking. There are actual stat modifiers on abilities right now. Check the tooltips for many of them and check the class pages. Some abilities have it. I used Enchanter Mesmerization as an example. Charisma and Constitution gives an increased duration to mez. There's even one for Warrior and others within the class pages.
It's in, but the question is why isn't it spoken about and why if it's in, isn't there more depth in the system at least from a theoretical standpoint.
"Yes, I agree with OP that the Devs should be selling their stat/ability custimization aspect more. It does allow for some potentially unique builds, but how extreme is the question. They've stated that stat gear will be hard to come by, and that they are keeping the numbers small. So, how big is the difference on a warrior with 8 charisma versus one with 16 for the War Hero effect? Is it twice as long, twice as strong? If so, we might be talking. If it's just a few seconds longer or a tad bit stronger, than that level of custimization is insignficant, and while there, I would understand why they don't feature it in their discussions."
I would think the changes are minute as so the minutia of imbalance outside of the modified coefficients are themselves so small, it's generally not considered. There's also far too much subjectiveness to the various abilities as many aren't direct combat focused or based on raw numbers.
"As for the people complaining about gated abilities at end game. Too bad. It's the same thing with raid drops and melee weapons/armor. A wizard's nuke is the same as a warrior's sword. They'll have less powerful versions available until they get the drop or complete the quest for the epic version. Until then, there are going to be better equipped wizards and warriors running around in comparison. You're not going to be invited to the groups that require that ability. That should be motivation to work on getting it. If you're in a good guild, you'll probably have plenty of groups despite not having the ability and you'll have people to help you get it. I think gated abilites just promotes the social aspect of forcing you to make friends and get in a guild if you ever want to achieve those abilities."
I agree, I'm perfectly fine with this system, my only problem was it's progression and not customization
@Sekurity
"I think this all has to do with tuning. In Everquest, if you didn't have your epic weapons, you did absolutely fine. It wasn't game breaking in anyway. Sure, you would do much more damage if you had it, but it didn't ruin anything, it only made things a little more easier."
Epics in most cases for Pure Casters and Healers, you didn't really do more damage. They were mainly for the stats and the effect which was more a convienance than a boost. The stats themselves such as Wisdom or Intellect didn't increase damage. Overall they were more for status and in the case of Enchanter and Cleric, a more efficient form of a spell they already have.
With Melee, I agree, that is the case.
"A zone/dungeon has a certain skill/gear cap requirement. Sure you can zone in and run around. But you will not successfully and efficiently kill mobs. VR is smart enough to realize that epic weapons and spells shouldn't be required for any content. (possibly certain raids at end game, but I'm sure they'll be rare)
Also, I like the idea of having to explore around and get certain spells in different places. It makes you explore all avenues of content as well as brings back the adventure."
I completely agree but that's entirely different than class differentiation or dealing with classes all having the same exact capabilities in terms of performance outside of weapon damage/delay.
@Riqq
"Enchanter doesnt differentiate from enchanter, if you want to differentiate from enchanter play rogue, or warrior, or mage, etc. Otherwise why have classes, the class in istelf is not to differentiate within the class thats kicking a dead horse because its never going to be good enough as it clearly isnt enough for you that we have 12 classes to choose from as it, all the abilties through events youre talking about is also class differentiating from the base class as should be, you can have people customizing classes because it enables exploiting, or just lame class balancing, being in this field you should know all this."
You say that but in Pantheon right now, there are abilities with stat modifiers such as Constitution, Intelligence and Charisma. Focusing in a particular stat increases the potency of that spell line. What the potency means we don't know but we know the answer to one. Mesmerization states in the class page that increased Charisma increases the duration of the mez. The same for the abilities that use Intelligence and Constitution. THe point is, it's in the game, the question is why it isn't talked about more or dealt with more?
@Brofeus
"I Feel that balancing classes has and will always be a challenge. Also giving them abilities to stand out and make them their own and relevent in groups is a challenge without creating an imbalance. My view on this is that you play a class because that is you choice of play style i.e. tank, support, heals.... those classes should be held within the confines of their roles for the group so you dont have wizzies tanking and chanters healing."
I don't mean for a system to allow that. There's a system of stat modifiers to abilities already in the game, but they currently don't allow for a Wizard to tank or Enchanter to heal. They siimply flow their class strengths around within the core structure of the class. If you notice, there is a Utility segment every class belongs to. That's the only way outside of the class roles I would see the modifier function work, but again, only in abilities that allow that. Focusing on Warrior banners or support abilities more would put them more into a utility role. You will not see classes fulfilling the role of another archetype simply by adjusting a coefficient of their different abilities.
"As far has specific maximization of abilities for that class it comes down to play style aswell. Within your class you adjust your stats to strengthen those abilities that help that play style.(buff, heals, mezzes, nukes) If I raid I will need the highest level for that ability to help my group/raid to succeed, but if I just enjoy dungeon diving and general group play the need for such abilities, although nice, are not neccessary to be competitave in those instances. These are what make the diffrence within classes."
That creates an illusion of customization but it is choice, I agree. However, that's event based, not character based. It's determined by the fight. With a stat based modifier as is what is on abilities currently, it allows for a few thousand to a hundred thousand permutations. It comes down to where you want to focus more as to your play style. While you can have different equipment to focus in different patch, that fits similar to teh approach of changing up abilities for an event. Where you can't change abilities mid fight, the same is for armor and weapons. However, the larger issue is there's too much nuance there and you'll use too many abilities that require all different stats and strengths. For this reason you would typically go the generalist approach. Its at that point people will then lean towards one area more then other other depending on how they prefer to play.
I dont really care if we are all cookie cutter characters where out level and class determine our base tools, worked fine in classic EQ and the player made the difference. I kinda prefer where the amount of work I put in to my gear and learning what I can do with my abilities matter more than if I've stumbled across x ability. Yes in eq at end game racial choice disnt matter...everyone was above cap on their stat of choice, with enough aa every warrior was immune to stun, or had increased swim, or or or, the difference was negligable because what mattered was they player. A warrior tanked, they didnt pick up 2 2handed weapons to become a non tankable dps.
Now what I do care is if I need one more dps for my group to replace someone who's leaving and I see "level xx rogue LFG" that they do their role. I dont want "lvl xx rogue LFG, specs and geared for cc so I'm a cc role that only uses smoke n mirror""
Reading over all this again I still don't think we have enough information to really form a solid arguement other then the fact that we need more information haha. The stat thing could be a problem but we don't really know how much the stats actually effect the skills even with the percents unless we see the value that skill increases firsthand. Maybe one Charisma for certain classes like a warrior is like ten Charisma for a class like Enchanter who is more Charisma focused. There is also the factor of how many skills you are going to be able to have on your bar maybe its to the point where if you don't decide what stats your going for you just are not going to have room for those skills regardless thus createing paths for certain classes. I expect we will see all the awnsers in Alpha and maybe peoples worries are very valid but that is what Alpha is for to find those type of problems out.
If the stat modifier situation is, or becomes, a focus for specialization it seems to follow that eventually players will have lists of the ideal items to modify one's playstyle accordingly. I would also support, as kreed99 says, an either/or element where players are forced to choose between two or three options. All would be good choices but each would lend slightly more to one modifier than others. Also, these options would be rare and exceptional choices so that by max level any one player might have only a few to several of these (either/or) items in their inventory.
I would also suggest the possibility of a non-path, chance or miracle aspect where a direct route to an item is not the method of attainment.
Going back to stat modifiers; I wonder if this becomes a 'thing', that there might be a host of trinkets, jewlery, crafted items that give large bonuses to different stats like we've seen in other games: Earings that grant large bonuses to only Charisma, for example? Everyone will have a set (at end game) to modify a stat to a great degree.
I also like vjek's idea regarding the tiered gear cap approach (?) where you could see both stat increases and decreases.
Perhaps they don't have this concept all worked out yet, and maybe that's why they have not put much focus into revealing more information or placing a focus upon it.
Regardless, I think there is a very good case to allow for stat bonuses, modifiers etc. that lend to differentiation in class playstyle. I hope we hear more about this!
kreed99 said: Ok had a chance to read up. I would love specific customization. Advanced class definitions. A healer pally over a dps pally. But that is not this game. This game is about making specific choices matter. About the situational awareness of the player. True we may all be cookie cutter versions of an incomplete class. To be honest that is how mmo’s are. Even if you choose specific specializations someone else can copy that choice. The main purpose of how PRF is being set up is to give unlimited options with specific implementation when it matters - in battle. Say a warrior wants to change his role. There is nothing saying he cant have a full set of agility gear in the bank or have a full set of stamina gear in the bank. What matters is knowing what you will be facing(learning encounters) and making specific choices to overcome those encounters. I respect that even tho min/maxing is a deterent for many i feel that its more of a meta aspect of the game. Gatekeeping mechanics aside i feel that groups will choose a class because of the general skills of that class and those specific epic skills/spells just make it better. This is more of a conceptual argument and i totally respect that. I do agree that more information could be shared about how stats impact skills and such, but i have a feeling they are still working that out internally to figure out the best course of action. Thats prolly why they just give generic brief overview of the concept they have finalised conceptually. I totally love this discussion tho. Its one of the better ones.
Specialization is already done by having CLASSES. This narrative is so bad. You want a tank who can heal? Play a pally. You want a tank who can mitigate? Play Dire Lord, etc, etc, etc. This ALREADY EXISTS and yet people refuse to recognize. There is no need for specialization within a single class.
Keno Monster said:Specialization is already done by having CLASSES. This narrative is so bad. You want a tank who can heal? Play a pally. You want a tank who can mitigate? Play Dire Lord, etc, etc, etc. This ALREADY EXISTS and yet people refuse to recognize. There is no need for specialization within a single class.
This. I feel like this entire "class customization or differentiation" only ever comes up when people that want to play a class like a warrior, also dont want to be a tank.
It's like people that get made certain races cant be certain classes, change your mindset.
We have 3 distinct tanks and 3 healers. They all seem to operate completely different from each other.
Games like rift and wow need to have differentiation between players of the same class because the combat was not engaging. 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 etc...
In a game like eq, all clerics have the same design and spells available to them. But based upon your level of skill. You were a significantly different player than someone who was not as good.