Like anything else political, for those in control (in this case the Devs) whether there is effective influence from those not in control (in this case the community) is less important than those not in control feeling as though they have an influence. When consumers believe they are being listened to, then the devs don't need to worry about alienating their base, so they can concentrate on their work. So it's important that the community believes it is being listened to/influential so the Devs don't have to fight a war on two fronts.
Because so many people have different ideals for what a game should be it can be a mistake to put too much emphasis in what the vocal community wants. The developer should always stick with the core design they set out with, afterall, that is what orginally brought us here in the first place. During the development process the community should, respectfully, voice their opinions on what is a good/bad feature with a reason on how it can positively/negatively impact the game. The dev team can then evaluate those suggestions to determine if it fits into their game.
It is difficult to assess what the community wants as a whole because I believe the majority are not commenting on the forums. In Pantheon's case, many supporters pledged based on the core tenets proposed by VR. Therefore, VR should look to the vocal community for suggestions to improve their tenets, but not diverge from them.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
This is a bit of a double edged sword. You should always examine community feedback, but only adopt it if it fits your vision for the game. All too often a vocal minority will cry for one thing or beg for another and in some cases it might be a good thing. Others, it could be down right disastrous. You're certainly never going to have a 100% consensus as people will always disagree regardless the topic (just look at some of the forum threads here).
So how much? Some, but measured. And very carefully examined for how it will impact all facets of the game if the intention is to impliment.
I think it's important to keep an open mind and listen to the community and be willing to tweak and adapt. That said, I don't think the devs should compromise on their vision for the game. Being open minded and willing to change is one thing but caving is another thing entirely. Keeping in mind that on the forums you hear from 10s or 100s and the game will likely have 10s or 100s of thousands. Just because some are louder and more vocal doesn't necessarily mean the represent the majority of a game's final player base.
Kind of like the death penalty. You know you want it to sting and you have an idea of how much it should sting but your willing to listen to the community and adjust the sting accordingly but your not willing to remove the sting altogether. Bend but don't break.
To be honest, I don't think our opinions should matter much at this point. Very few people have actually played the game, and only in a pre-alpha version with many core mechanics still to be implemented. Stick to your vision about cooperative play, meaningful travel, death with a sting, etc., etc. After all, that's what we have all pledged to support, even though some of the most eager posters sometimes seem to want something different.
On the other hand, these forums contain many, many great ideas that should be carefully considered if they can support said vision.
That's my opinion, at least, so it can safely be ignored. :-)
The ideal of the proposed game should be the baseline and the go to return point when in doubt for the dev's.
They initially started with an idea, one they all could agree upon. A foundation or even several. Fundamental core believes and goals. Have those hung up somewhere in the offices. ;)
When reaching out to the community, it's always good to take note and by some way inform them that they are being heard. When those opinions make even the dev's doubt or wonder, I'ld say go back to the baseline. Does it intervene with it or can it in some way or another coexist? What type and scale of audience to you want to reach and do these suggestions that do not align with your initial baseline stroke with what the target audience is expecting? Get yourself a stable core be that in design and in desired audience. This could help keep the ship sailing it's steady course instead of docking on every isle that comes along. Stay true to your believes!
Especially in test phases of developing the game, there is still a lot of room to experiment and try out those things that fit the most with the baseline of the game's ideal. Players' feedback could be even more valuable and add more constructive feedback to the table.
A community can be valueable in a way that, if the dev's are stuck on a proposition but don't know how to implement or in what shape/form. It's that community that might be your pool of alternative ideas and solutions. It's up to the dev's to take out what they see fit, rather than relating to whichever voice is loudest.
For most problems there can be solutions/alternatives or alterations. If you can't find them yourselves have a dip in the pool that is your community.
Well if you let a tank class rule the game, this time though i am done. They ruined many of the EQ classes that stand today because they had to have thier own way, whinning to the devs i cant do this and cant do that.
They started the nerfs, and the end all result = nobody left to play even the tanks themselves.
It may sound like a whine on my end but its true they started the whole thing, and caused a shift with the devs.
I feel that all opinions should be taken, read and considered while a game is in development.
Sometimes the community can think of things that team may have missed.
As far as how much influence, the final decision should be from the team's perspective after they have done so.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I think that like many other things it's important to stay in tune with the voices of the community. But at the same time realize that a large majority of the playerbase will never engage in forums.
I think developers have a difficult position because no matter what change they make, people will be upset. Being able to determine what changes need to be made for the betterment of the game. That's the task that is most important, and also most challenging.
1. Mobius hit it on the nose. It is important that the community feel that it is being listened to. I think VR has done a good job here. This is important to the game especially when the community in question are the hardcore supporters. Probably most people active on the forums feel that VR will at least read what they have to say if not respond, and believe that if they make a *really* persuasive argument on some debated point it could actually make a difference. Keeping "the base" enthusiastic is helpful now and will be more helpful as we get closer to release and VR wants more word-of-mouth buzz to spread.
2. Among all of us we have a *lot* of experience with playing MMOs. It is entirely likely that from time to time we will come up with good ideas that VR hasn't thought of, or maybe one person thought of them but with everything going on didn't pursue them. Even skilled professionals do not know everything and cannot think of everything. A good think tank is worth the cost of maintaining the forums even apart from the value of our pledges and the hope of getting more.
3. As we near release it is probable that not everything will work perfectly (if everything was going to work perfectly we wouldn't need testing) and some design decisions will need to be reconsidered. And despite all the commitments in the world to not rush and only release when the game is ready there are many reasons why timing is relevant and dragging out the process too long can be worse than releasing too soon. Having a bank of differing ideas on most design decisions to look at when VR needs to reconsider one and wants to do so quickly so as to get the next build out next *week* not next *month* may come in useful.
4. Not at all least - we are not a perfect judge of playerbase sentiment and we tend towards exaggeration and hyperbele to make our points. In general not all of us. But we are the best gauge VR has of what real players quite likely to be playing the game actually think. If we raise a near unanimous storm of protest on some point it is likely (not certain) that ramming it down our throats will result in a feature that many actual players will feel is ...imperfectly desirable .... after release. Better to find out now. If VR is even a bit concerned it can do a Kilsin question to generate very tailored feedback on the point.
Note that disagreement on almost any point is to be expected. Some people here object to corpse runs, trains, any form of broker/auction house, etc. but the objections are quite likely a minority and with great certainty are not near-unanimous. VR should and probably does listen to the *reasons* for any disagreement - there is always the small chance such reasons will be persuasive. But it is when there is a great groudswell of disagreement that the mere *fact* of the disagreement should get them to sit up and listen. Not necessarily do anything but at least rethink the issue.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I say that they should provide "advisement" on what would be a fun game, but in the end it should be left to the developers and their vision. The problem is that there is a small subset, myself included, that is very vocal about what they want. This small subset doesn't necessarily represent the community as a whole, however, because they are so vocal, it may appear that they "speak for the community". This is a phenomenon that doesn't just apply to the gaming community, but life in general
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Should be handled via https://ideascale.com/service/ideation-software/ or similar until VR is ready for public demos open to any and all types of criticism.
Forums can be used, but only if searched, merged and purged into a monthly FAQ. These forums are an abomination compared to better options, and have been for years, despite all the data for everything residing in tables that are a single SQL statement away from migration to any other platform or solution. The community should be seen as a logical deconstruction resource and source of ideas and implementations, rather than the enemy.
But I have yet to see it done well, because community relations is seen as a necessary evil, not a resource to be plundered, historically.
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Pilch said:Because so many people have different ideals for what a game should be it can be a mistake to put too much emphasis in what the vocal community wants. The developer should always stick with the core design they set out with, afterall, that is what orginally brought us here in the first place. During the development process the community should, respectfully, voice their opinions on what is a good/bad feature with a reason on how it can positively/negatively impact the game. The dev team can then evaluate those suggestions to determine if it fits into their game.
It is difficult to assess what the community wants as a whole because I believe the majority are not commenting on the forums. In Pantheon's case, many supporters pledged based on the core tenets proposed by VR. Therefore, VR should look to the vocal community for suggestions to improve their tenets, but not diverge from them.
I agree with this sentiment. The tenets represent the foundation that the game is being built around. If an idea or suggestion is shared that aligns with the tenets then it should be considered. If an existing feature or mechanic can be repurposed to better capture the goals that tie the tenets together, that should be considered as well. The game tenets are the primary reason why I pledged and as long as they are adhered to as much as possible, Pantheon should go on to be a wildly successful game.
Kratuk said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
This is a bit of a double edged sword. You should always examine community feedback, but only adopt it if it fits your vision for the game. All too often a vocal minority will cry for one thing or beg for another and in some cases it might be a good thing. Others, it could be down right disastrous. You're certainly never going to have a 100% consensus as people will always disagree regardless the topic (just look at some of the forum threads here).
So how much? Some, but measured. And very carefully examined for how it will impact all facets of the game if the intention is to impliment.
Very good points. Yes, I don't think the community should have very much influence at all over the game's development. Why? Because as someone on another thread said there are a ton of people keeping their eye on Pantheon. Most of them aren't posting here. More learn about this unique game's development every day. There will always be the small group that cries or complains about major changes to a game - the complaining will happen to any game. What's important is that the devs make the game they believe in. That their expansions bolster the vision of the game they made; not stray from it. That being said, we need a diversity of mmos. Anything on the forums is pure discussion - speaking for myself, I enjoy discussing. This is my opinion here - I think what's important is the devs make the game they want while staying true to their vision. That the devs don't make major changes to their game from a small and very vocal group - because many people don't even post on forums - heck, they are in the game exploring instead. This isn't a swipe at anyone who likes WoW or EQ-Live, but my opinion is that WoW and EQ-Live listened to the minority of people devoting too much of their time complaining and whining about gameplay on the forums that it really just lead to massive subscription loss in the end. If someone likes WoW, EQ-Live, or even P99, then all the power to you. Again, what I think is most important is the devs making the game *they* are working on while then utilizing expansions within the scope of the game they made. There are just too many people who don't post on forums. Pantheon looks soooo awesome!!! <3 #communitymatters
I think it's important that the dev team have their own ideas of where they want to go with the game, and that they stick to those guns - you can't build a game by committee, or you just end up with a mess.
However, I also think it's really important that the dev team listen to *all* of their potential players. That doesn't mean radically changing things because one group or another desires it, but it's really important to understand what resonates with players, and what doesn't, and why. And then that way the team can make educated decisions about their implementation based on their ideas plus the player feedback.
It's been my experience that whenever there is a contentious debate among the community over something - whatever that is - there's almost always an important reason for it. If two sides disagree vehemently over a topic, they probably both have valid points that need to be listened to. At the end of the day, the dev team will have to select an implementation that won't completely satisfy everyone, but that doesn't mean that they should make that decision blindly either. In fact, I'd say that most of the time, the solutions that have the best chance of holding up long term are the ones that are somewhere in the middle of the argument.
I work for a company that develops and sells software. We have all too frequently fallen into the trap of assuming that our customers will love our latest, most awesome innovation, without stopping to think about what they really want out of our products. Often, we fail not because the idea was bad, but because our implementation was flawed - because we didnt listen to what people really want and need to get out of the experiences we were building. My company doesn't make MMOs, but I think the lesson still applies. Have great ideas, and innovate, but also make sure you understand what really matters to your customers, and don't just assume that they'll all love what you do because you think it's an awesome idea.
oneADseven said:Pilch said:Because so many people have different ideals for what a game should be it can be a mistake to put too much emphasis in what the vocal community wants. The developer should always stick with the core design they set out with, afterall, that is what orginally brought us here in the first place. During the development process the community should, respectfully, voice their opinions on what is a good/bad feature with a reason on how it can positively/negatively impact the game. The dev team can then evaluate those suggestions to determine if it fits into their game.
It is difficult to assess what the community wants as a whole because I believe the majority are not commenting on the forums. In Pantheon's case, many supporters pledged based on the core tenets proposed by VR. Therefore, VR should look to the vocal community for suggestions to improve their tenets, but not diverge from them.
I agree with this sentiment. The tenets represent the foundation that the game is being built around. If an idea or suggestion is shared that aligns with the tenets then it should be considered. If an existing feature or mechanic can be repurposed to better capture the goals that tie the tenets together, that should be considered as well. The game tenets are the primary reason why I pledged and as long as they are adhered to as much as possible, Pantheon should go on to be a wildly successful game.
This right here, the Tenets are what they need to stick by.
I'm glad 187 added in "If an idea or suggestion is shared that aligns with the tenets then it should be considered" THAT to me is the main purpose the community should fill, bringing new ideas the Dev's may not have thought of. As far a voting, don't give us a vote...
As I learned being a EQNext supporter, if you open up these forums to free access, and let the community decide whats best, Pantheon will be releasing as Free to Play with a cash shop full of
@Kilsin
Idea's, feedback and suggestions are fine as long as they go hand-in-hand with the vision of the game; which is up to the dev's to state what the actual vision is and often (-in this case Pantheon has pretty much nailed it with the Tenets, videos and The Pantheon difference pages). However most players never really take that into consideration and spout self-wants or features they'd personally like to see without any thought to game balance, other playstyles, vision or direction. I've even spouted a self-want or two in the past without really thinking about it until I wised up.
At the end of the day.. whose opinion/idea really matters? the superfan boys? the vocal minority? the silent majority? Personally; I think that if VR wants an opinion or an idea on something.. they should ask the community directly (with a polite reminder of the games vision/direction) and disregard everything else. Harsh I know but it'd be better in the long run. Dev's need to be careful because not all feedback is good feedback/suggestions; it has to be relative. Game integrity is key; how much does VR/Pantheon have? :P
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
None.
Games cannot be built from the decisions of a committee of thousands. You cannot have a cohesive design and vision for a game when the input comes from thousands of individual viewpoints. As we've seen on these forums over the last 4.5 years concensus on even the simplest of designs sprouts numerous pages filled with differences in opinion.
Players can give opinions and feedback but should never expect that a developer will take their opinion as the best route, not even players pledging money to participate in testing.
Vandraad said: Players can give opinions and feedback but should never expect that a developer will take their opinion as the best route, not even players pledging money to participate in testing.
Everything in moderation - that includes listening to forum feedback. Player feedback is critical to listen to, since you definitely don't want to create features that everyone hates, but one must also take all feedback with a grain of salt in that it's not necessarily representative of the broader playerbase. That requires case-by-case decision making on the part of the devs, of course.
I think the single best way to provide the community a voice is in game polls. Not using forums or social media, but a poll whenever a player goes to log in. This allows the devs to get a sounding board for their ideas and changes. The forums are a great place to get some in depth conversation on different poll options and can help the devs understand why a particular course of action is more popular than another.
One problem with using a poll is when the players feel like the devs hide the results so it looks like the community supports the dev decision even though most players don't know anyone who actually liked that idea. This causes the players to lose faith and move away from a game.
Another problem with using a poll is the devs sometimes find out their good idea isn't really all that good. It is difficult to see one of our pet ideas be dismissed and can be very difficult to accept a new idea instead. I've seen so many games where the majority of players wanted one thing but the dev team went a different route simply because they liked their idea better. This has always resulted in players leaving and ultimately hurting the game overall.
The dev team has a general vision of where they want the game to go and how it should progress. They then build detailed plans where some items have multiple ways of being implemented. It is these details where getting player input and approval can make the game richer and more interesting.
Example: For the next expansion the dev team can code two new class choices or we can do a balance pass on all existing classes. Whichever is selected now the other will take two additional months to implement. Which option would you prefer is done first?
The outcome of the poll would show the players are good with current class balance and want new classes to play, that they think class balance is bad and needs fixing, or are evenly split in which case the devs can do the one that takes the least amount of time first and get to the other option sooner. As long as the devs are communicating their vision and why decisions are made the majority of players will feel like they are part of the process instead of being forced to simply accept the process or leave.
Pilch said:Because so many people have different ideals for what a game should be it can be a mistake to put too much emphasis in what the vocal community wants. The developer should always stick with the core design they set out with, afterall, that is what orginally brought us here in the first place. During the development process the community should, respectfully, voice their opinions on what is a good/bad feature with a reason on how it can positively/negatively impact the game. The dev team can then evaluate those suggestions to determine if it fits into their game.
It is difficult to assess what the community wants as a whole because I believe the majority are not commenting on the forums. In Pantheon's case, many supporters pledged based on the core tenets proposed by VR. Therefore, VR should look to the vocal community for suggestions to improve their tenets, but not diverge from them.
This was such an amazingly accurate and thought out response. This should be at the very heart of everything. If community concerns are about broken mechanics, bugs, stability it should always be taken if confirmed by dev team. If player base is making suggestions for other changes it should only be changed if data supports the claims. The least amount of input community should have is based purely on opinion. I would consider quality of life opinions exempt and at very least heard.
One of the biggest... biggest things that the community needs to stay out of... is balance to pve based on pvp desire. OMG how many games make this mistake of balancing pvp skills to negatively affect pve. This part I will say.... screw the community lol. If you want to put a team to make adjustments to pvp on a pvp only server.... go for it. Do not take input on pvp and put it to pve only servers.... screw that. If this game is intended to be a pve group oriented game focus on suggestions to the pve side of things. Lets not be porsche! They are known as performance car.. and make a stationwagon to appease a small nieche. Just sad. AKA PVE being that performance car its known for.. and PVP being that stationwagon driving around that makes you go WTH.
Overall the community will always play a role because they are the customers. If things go as planned, the community will outnumber the devs by thousands if not hundreds of thousands (I can hope this is true) So there will be chances at little nuggest of genious coming out of it.
P.S. Example of a way to piss off player base by not listening to the players is Neverwinter. OMG. So the community expressed that there was a bug with great weapon fighters unstoppable being blocked from use. Reports were given... gameplay sent in for examples. Early on the devs actually said... it excists but we do not know why it happens or how to fix it. That was an unacceptable response. How lazy was that team percieved to be when they acknowledged a problem but did not find a cause let alone a solution. This was not just a small thing this was a core class mechanic. 6 expansions later and 3 dev teams... they finally found the source code that was the problem and fixed it. They had this on their table for nearly 3 years before they got that fix in. 3 YEARS.
As someone whose job is to build server infrastructure for enterprise environments I think its critial the developers absolutely must have a clear design with well documented requirements, and build to that design. If you're building on the fly you've already lost. The outcome will be a confusing and inconsistent experience that noone really finds they are satisfied with. Stay true to your vision until its proved that something just isn't working, and then perhaps take great care to go thru copious amounts of tester/player feedback to start designing a solution.
Feedback based entirely on people who've never actually touched your product isnt really all that valuable IMO. The theory crafting we engage in here is all tainted by past experiences in specific games, and if you (VR as a whole) havent had all the same conversations a million times already then frankly you arent qualified to be a game developer.
It's easy for all of us potential players to argue a single mechanic to death. But without being able to see the interdependency between all mechanics in a single game, our input is nothing more than speculation at best, or outright hyperbole at worst.
And last, how many players actually know what's good for them?
Make a solid game. Drive to the design goals you've already published. Address bugs that players bring to you in a timely manner, and make this thing run as smooth as poop thru a goose and I'll be a loyal customer. Start putting in all kinds of gimmicky candy for the squeeky wheels in the community and I'll likely not be around all that long, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.