I'm going to talk for a moment about playing on an emulated EQ server. I don't believe the admins here should have issue with it since Daybreak has made it extremely clear that they are ok with it.
A new EQ server was just started with nearly everything set to old-school EQ (It's the EQ Reborn server if anyone is interested in checking it out while waiting for Pantheon to release [it's years away folks]). No expansions, just base game. One of the characters I made was a dark elf enchanter.
I've been soloing and duoing with the wife as she was an EQ player way back when also. It's been so many years. I had forgotten so many things. One thing I just found out (I still don't ever remember doing this back on EQ but I'm sure I had to have) was that starting at level 8 the enchanter pets are no longer sold in your starting city. You have to get them in HHK, a place where the residents are obviously not terribly fond of dark elves.
So at level 8 I leave Neriak, travel the length of the zone south and into East Commons. Invis up. When I zone into EC I head west and travel the length of the zone to West Commons. Zone in, and travel the length of the zone to Kithicor forest. Zone into Kithicor forest and travel the length of the zone to HighPass where I apply my human illusion, but continue to use invis just in case. I enter HP and navigate a few tunnels to the HHK entrance. Check my illusion time -- still plenty left to go. I zone into HHK and spend a few minutes fumbling around the hallways trying to find the merchant, but fortunately he is not far from the entrance so the wrong turns didn't set me back too far. The merchant is right next to an HHK citizen. Yikes. Well, here goes nothing. I click off my invis, buy my level 8, 12, and 16 enchanter pets and gate out.
I got the "you feel yourself starting to appear" message I think 4 times, but had no difficulty finding an area to duck into and reapply invis. Total time for the entire journey was right around 15 minutes.
So what's my point? I think some people are radically overestimating the "difficulty" and "travel times" of old EQ in an attempt to urge this game to be more boring and tedious than it needs to be. I don't recall anyone saying original EQ was "easy" or the always well-conceived "dumbed-down".
Granted, if I had to have taken a boat from a different continent then the travel time itself may have been longer, but it wouldn't have been anymore difficulty (unless you got disconnected and fell off the boat but we're not using 14k modems anymore here, guys).
Take it for what it's worth. It's just my experience. But my experience says this game doesn't need to be tedious and boring to compete with the game play of old EQ.
Good topic to start a war. Eq's difficulty was partially caused by : new genre, unknown mechanics, lack of complete databases, no datamining, low and unstable connection, slow computer, lack of proper tools, hardware, etc...
We are now in an era where gaming is no longer a closet secret, it's a genre and a lifestyle, and we have changed much in our stress management to no longer fear a breaking invis.
Searril said:I'm going to talk for a moment about playing on an emulated EQ server. I don't believe the admins here should have issue with it since Daybreak has made it extremely clear that they are ok with it.
A new EQ server was just started with nearly everything set to old-school EQ (It's the EQ Reborn server if anyone is interested in checking it out while waiting for Pantheon to release [it's years away folks]). No expansions, just base game. One of the characters I made was a dark elf enchanter.
I've been soloing and duoing with the wife as she was an EQ player way back when also. It's been so many years. I had forgotten so many things. One thing I just found out (I still don't ever remember doing this back on EQ but I'm sure I had to have) was that starting at level 8 the enchanter pets are no longer sold in your starting city. You have to get them in HHK, a place where the residents are obviously not terribly fond of dark elves.
So at level 8 I leave Neriak, travel the length of the zone south and into East Commons. Invis up. When I zone into EC I head west and travel the length of the zone to West Commons. Zone in, and travel the length of the zone to Kithicor forest. Zone into Kithicor forest and travel the length of the zone to HighPass where I apply my human illusion, but continue to use invis just in case. I enter HP and navigate a few tunnels to the HHK entrance. Check my illusion time -- still plenty left to go. I zone into HHK and spend a few minutes fumbling around the hallways trying to find the merchant, but fortunately he is not far from the entrance so the wrong turns didn't set me back too far. The merchant is right next to an HHK citizen. Yikes. Well, here goes nothing. I click off my invis, buy my level 8, 12, and 16 enchanter pets and gate out.
I got the "you feel yourself starting to appear" message I think 4 times, but had no difficulty finding an area to duck into and reapply invis. Total time for the entire journey was right around 15 minutes.
So what's my point? I think some people are radically overestimating the "difficulty" and "travel times" of old EQ in an attempt to urge this game to be more boring and tedious than it needs to be. I don't recall anyone saying original EQ was "easy" or the always well-conceived "dumbed-down".
Granted, if I had to have taken a boat from a different continent then the travel time itself may have been longer, but it wouldn't have been anymore difficulty (unless you got disconnected and fell off the boat but we're not using 14k modems anymore here, guys).
Take it for what it's worth. It's just my experience. But my experience says this game doesn't need to be tedious and boring to compete with the game play of old EQ.
But remember this was 1999 when the internet was very young. Imagine logging into a game and having no idea where to get your spells or where they're even sold, let alone in a city that will attack you on sight. Games will always be relatively easy with the internet now. Where to go, where to find something, strategy, etc. The experience will probably never be the same as it was back then. We had to figure it all out on our own. So I guess the big question is...how to follow a philosophical idea in a modern, internet-driven world?
I imagine that's how maps and quest logs started showing up in games because why force the player to go to a site to find something when you can create an in-game experience? I think quality of life features is what is killing MMOs. There's a fine balance and I have no doubt that with Brad leading this team Pantheon will meet its philosophical goals.
But remember this was 1999 when the internet was very young. Imagine logging into a game and having no idea where to get your spells or where they're even sold, let alone in a city that will attack you on sight.
Agreed, but there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. Everyone knows info is everywhere now. There will be detailed maps and NPC locations documented based on alpha and beta testing well before this game goes live.
I agree with the basic concept here.
Pantheon should be designed around the core principles that brought most of us here - not as an original EQ emulator.
You cannot put the genie back in the bottle. This isn't 1999. The more we look at specific features through the rose colored glasses named nostalgia and the less we focus on basic principles whether the result looks like EQ or not the worse off we will be.
I'll give you a counterpoint example of the first few levels of my paladin in EQ, back in 1999.
I started with nothing more than a rusty weapon. Zoning into Greater Faydark, I set out in search of things to kill. My first fight was against a wasp, which I killed with about 20% of my health left. I sat down, regened, and then found a skeleton, which I also killed, but which didn't drop anything. The third encounter was another wasp, which for whatever reason hit me more/harder than the first wasp. I died, and respawned at my bind point back in Felwithe.
Zoning out, I found my corpse (not that there was much on it), and then I attacked another wasp. I won. Ding Level 2! Now things felt easier. I killed more wasps and a few more skeletons. I'd still have to take care between fights. I found a blue skeleton with a sword, and killed it, but it *really* hurt. I had to go hide back by the guards and regen after that (but I got the sword which was an upgrade).
After an hour or so of killing things outside the gates I had leveled up to 4 and was feeling pretty good about myself. Skeletons and wasps were easy now, and I had managed to collect a few pieces of cloth armor from the skeletons that really made a difference. So I was venturing further out. I still couldn't really handle two blues at once but I could survive two back to back if I could fight them one at a time. Anyway, as I ventured further out, I came across an orc scout. He conned white, so I was reasonably sure I could take him. Charge!
When I respawned back in Felwithe, I could only think "wow that orc hit really hard". I stuck to skeletons a while longer, working on getting a full set of cloth armor, and selling the excess armor and weapons for some coin. When I finally went back to fight that orc scout again I'd leveled up to 5. This time, I won.
Feeling strong, I began a reign of terror against the orc scouts near Kelethin. Sometimes I'd get an add while I was fighting and have to try and run, and there were plenty of stops along the way to heal up. But overall this worked pretty well and as I leveled up, my kill rate kept increasing.
Then at around level 7 I got to a hilly area north of Kelethin. I saw a lone orc wandering around and attacked it without checking. The yellow Orc Centurion wiped the floor with me.
I came back more cautious, killed a few scouts, got to level 8. Pulled a centurion. Dead again.
I came back a third time. Found a centurion, determined to kill it this time. Got it to about 30% before it killed me.
Frustrated, I asked in /ooc how anyone is supposed to kill centurions? The answer came back "oh yeah they're mean, you'll need a group"
10 minutes later, I had a group and we were pulling centurions on Orc Hill. The fights were tough, and a few times we got too many and had to run (or die). Sometimes we made it and sometimes we didn't.
I started many alts after that paladin, including several in Felwithe. And while I certainly didn't die as much, the difficulty of the individual fights didn't really change. The meaningful feeling of moving through a zone didn't change. The feeling that gear *really* mattered didn't change.
I compare that with other MMOs I have played where I almost never even come close to dying, and where half the time I ignore my equipment leveling up and just takes whatever the next quest hands me, and where I certainly never feel like I need to group with anyone to kill anything (unless it's specifically called out in my quest journal as a group area). To me, *that* is the kind of difficulty that EQ had that other games tend to lack.
If I were to roll on EQ Reborn or P99 would I find it as difficult as it once was? I don't know. Cynically, I think that because these games are emulated, I might find that fights have less risk than they did in real EQ back in 1999. But I have nothing to base that on. Just a feeling. Either way, what I hope for from Pantheon is the level of difficulty I described in my story above. Each fight matters. Each gear upgrade matters. Each spell you buy, or skill you train matters. And fairly early on out of the gate you realize that you can't do very much alone.
Searril said: Agreed, but there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. Everyone knows info is everywhere now. There will be detailed maps and NPC locations documented based on alpha and beta testing well before this game goes live.
Correct. But there is a portion of the target demographic that isn't interested in logic, reason, or learning from history.
At this point, I think the best we can hope for is a game with challenging group-required content. And by challenging and group-required, I mean players will have to play their role for the group to consume content faster than being alone. Hopefully that's within reach for Pantheon, or at least, hopefully they will keep iterating with combat mechanics and NPCs until it's mostly true.
In a larger context, mechanically, MMOs are about moving your character through 3D space and pressing keys. There isn't more to it than that, at the most basic level. Children can and do play these games, with varying degrees of success. /follow and slave-pressing 1,2,3 is how most bots work, and unfortunately, it looks like Pantheon is going to have /follow as well. NPCs, at least so far, are typically PathToNearestEnemy() and press 1,2,3. The veil was pulled back & destroyed around 2002, and veteran/experienced players know the real deal, and there is no going back.
Difficulty is not a mechanic that is tedious, time consuming, repetitive, or rare. Difficulty is getting 6 people to sycnhronize their actions to defeat a slightly dynamic enemy. So far, we've seen some of that in the videos, but not enough, imo. I think we need more sympathetic, synergistic, co-op, selfless, non-solo mechanics. Let's hope they add something similar in the next 3 years.
Nephele said:If I were to roll on EQ Reborn or P99 would I find it as difficult as it once was? I don't know. Cynically, I think that because these games are emulated, I might find that fights have less risk than they did in real EQ back in 1999. But I have nothing to base that on. Just a feeling. Either way, what I hope for from Pantheon is the level of difficulty I described in my story above. Each fight matters. Each gear upgrade matters. Each spell you buy, or skill you train matters. And fairly early on out of the gate you realize that you can't do very much alone.
No, that was pretty much my experience starting out on my shaman a few months ago, as someone who'd never played EQ. Also, it took me like 30 minutes to find my trainer on my enchanter. Spells have zero description to them. They give you points to train different types of casting that all basically sound the same.
I think, perhaps, the point of the OP wasn't that combat should be easy, but that in a lot of cases adding pointless tedium and "difficulty" isn't a good thing. Maybe the pendulum did swing too far towards quality-of-life features, but we should hope for a sweet spot, not completely swinging the pendulum back in the opposite direction. /shrug
Nephele said:I'll give you a counterpoint example of the first few levels of my paladin in EQ, back in 1999.
I started with nothing more than a rusty weapon. Zoning into Greater Faydark, I set out in search of things to kill. My first fight was against a wasp, which I killed with about 20% of my health left. I sat down, regened, and then found a skeleton, which I also killed, but which didn't drop anything. The third encounter was another wasp, which for whatever reason hit me more/harder than the first wasp. I died, and respawned at my bind point back in Felwithe.
Zoning out, I found my corpse (not that there was much on it), and then I attacked another wasp. I won. Ding Level 2! Now things felt easier. I killed more wasps and a few more skeletons. I'd still have to take care between fights. I found a blue skeleton with a sword, and killed it, but it *really* hurt. I had to go hide back by the guards and regen after that (but I got the sword which was an upgrade).
After an hour or so of killing things outside the gates I had leveled up to 4 and was feeling pretty good about myself. Skeletons and wasps were easy now, and I had managed to collect a few pieces of cloth armor from the skeletons that really made a difference. So I was venturing further out. I still couldn't really handle two blues at once but I could survive two back to back if I could fight them one at a time. Anyway, as I ventured further out, I came across an orc scout. He conned white, so I was reasonably sure I could take him. Charge!
When I respawned back in Felwithe, I could only think "wow that orc hit really hard". I stuck to skeletons a while longer, working on getting a full set of cloth armor, and selling the excess armor and weapons for some coin. When I finally went back to fight that orc scout again I'd leveled up to 5. This time, I won.
Feeling strong, I began a reign of terror against the orc scouts near Kelethin. Sometimes I'd get an add while I was fighting and have to try and run, and there were plenty of stops along the way to heal up. But overall this worked pretty well and as I leveled up, my kill rate kept increasing.
Then at around level 7 I got to a hilly area north of Kelethin. I saw a lone orc wandering around and attacked it without checking. The yellow Orc Centurion wiped the floor with me.
I came back more cautious, killed a few scouts, got to level 8. Pulled a centurion. Dead again.
I came back a third time. Found a centurion, determined to kill it this time. Got it to about 30% before it killed me.
Frustrated, I asked in /ooc how anyone is supposed to kill centurions? The answer came back "oh yeah they're mean, you'll need a group"
10 minutes later, I had a group and we were pulling centurions on Orc Hill. The fights were tough, and a few times we got too many and had to run (or die). Sometimes we made it and sometimes we didn't.
I started many alts after that paladin, including several in Felwithe. And while I certainly didn't die as much, the difficulty of the individual fights didn't really change. The meaningful feeling of moving through a zone didn't change. The feeling that gear *really* mattered didn't change.
I compare that with other MMOs I have played where I almost never even come close to dying, and where half the time I ignore my equipment leveling up and just takes whatever the next quest hands me, and where I certainly never feel like I need to group with anyone to kill anything (unless it's specifically called out in my quest journal as a group area). To me, *that* is the kind of difficulty that EQ had that other games tend to lack.
If I were to roll on EQ Reborn or P99 would I find it as difficult as it once was? I don't know. Cynically, I think that because these games are emulated, I might find that fights have less risk than they did in real EQ back in 1999. But I have nothing to base that on. Just a feeling. Either way, what I hope for from Pantheon is the level of difficulty I described in my story above. Each fight matters. Each gear upgrade matters. Each spell you buy, or skill you train matters. And fairly early on out of the gate you realize that you can't do very much alone.
You're correct. The OP is missing a LARGE part of the game out of his synposis. Like all of the effort and time it took to get to level 8. He picked an arbitrary point in time to start with one small item, go get your pets, and based his entire synopsis on that.
Cherry picked data much?
Nephele said:I'll give you a counterpoint example of the first few levels of my paladin in EQ, back in 1999.
I started with nothing more than a rusty weapon. Zoning into Greater Faydark, I set out in search of things to kill. My first fight was against a wasp, which I killed with about 20% of my health left. I sat down, regened, and then found a skeleton, which I also killed, but which didn't drop anything. The third encounter was another wasp, which for whatever reason hit me more/harder than the first wasp. I died, and respawned at my bind point back in Felwithe.
Zoning out, I found my corpse (not that there was much on it), and then I attacked another wasp. I won. Ding Level 2! Now things felt easier. I killed more wasps and a few more skeletons. I'd still have to take care between fights. I found a blue skeleton with a sword, and killed it, but it *really* hurt. I had to go hide back by the guards and regen after that (but I got the sword which was an upgrade).
After an hour or so of killing things outside the gates I had leveled up to 4 and was feeling pretty good about myself. Skeletons and wasps were easy now, and I had managed to collect a few pieces of cloth armor from the skeletons that really made a difference. So I was venturing further out. I still couldn't really handle two blues at once but I could survive two back to back if I could fight them one at a time. Anyway, as I ventured further out, I came across an orc scout. He conned white, so I was reasonably sure I could take him. Charge!
When I respawned back in Felwithe, I could only think "wow that orc hit really hard". I stuck to skeletons a while longer, working on getting a full set of cloth armor, and selling the excess armor and weapons for some coin. When I finally went back to fight that orc scout again I'd leveled up to 5. This time, I won.
Feeling strong, I began a reign of terror against the orc scouts near Kelethin. Sometimes I'd get an add while I was fighting and have to try and run, and there were plenty of stops along the way to heal up. But overall this worked pretty well and as I leveled up, my kill rate kept increasing.
Then at around level 7 I got to a hilly area north of Kelethin. I saw a lone orc wandering around and attacked it without checking. The yellow Orc Centurion wiped the floor with me.
I came back more cautious, killed a few scouts, got to level 8. Pulled a centurion. Dead again.
I came back a third time. Found a centurion, determined to kill it this time. Got it to about 30% before it killed me.
Frustrated, I asked in /ooc how anyone is supposed to kill centurions? The answer came back "oh yeah they're mean, you'll need a group"
10 minutes later, I had a group and we were pulling centurions on Orc Hill. The fights were tough, and a few times we got too many and had to run (or die). Sometimes we made it and sometimes we didn't.
I started many alts after that paladin, including several in Felwithe. And while I certainly didn't die as much, the difficulty of the individual fights didn't really change. The meaningful feeling of moving through a zone didn't change. The feeling that gear *really* mattered didn't change.
I compare that with other MMOs I have played where I almost never even come close to dying, and where half the time I ignore my equipment leveling up and just takes whatever the next quest hands me, and where I certainly never feel like I need to group with anyone to kill anything (unless it's specifically called out in my quest journal as a group area). To me, *that* is the kind of difficulty that EQ had that other games tend to lack.
If I were to roll on EQ Reborn or P99 would I find it as difficult as it once was? I don't know. Cynically, I think that because these games are emulated, I might find that fights have less risk than they did in real EQ back in 1999. But I have nothing to base that on. Just a feeling. Either way, what I hope for from Pantheon is the level of difficulty I described in my story above. Each fight matters. Each gear upgrade matters. Each spell you buy, or skill you train matters. And fairly early on out of the gate you realize that you can't do very much alone.
I agree with what you are saying about what should be the difficult portions of Pantheon. I don't need useless time sinks (long boat rides/waits), long travel times through zones, or a complete lack of soloable mobs. What we need to be the most difficult aspect of this game is for players to be able to synergize together and understand their roles and how to apply them. We need the "every mob could be our last if we aren't careful" mentality. A group should steamroll through multiple mobs that are 2 level and more lower than they are and be challenged if they pull adds on mobs that are a level or two above them. Difficulty should be in the mechanics of the game not the tedium.
Kalok said:You're correct. The OP is missing a LARGE part of the game out of his synposis. Like all of the effort and time it took to get to level 8. He picked an arbitrary point in time to start with one small item, go get your pets, and based his entire synopsis on that.
Cherry picked data much?
Oh stop. You missed the point and now you want to be all in a huff. Just stop.
Kalok said:You're correct. The OP is missing a LARGE part of the game out of his synposis. Like all of the effort and time it took to get to level 8. He picked an arbitrary point in time to start with one small item, go get your pets, and based his entire synopsis on that.
Cherry picked data much?
Not really sure what your argument here is? EQ took a very long time to level, even after people started getting accustomed to the game and learning how to limit death and how to most efficiently travel.
I can say that the first time I traveled to high hold keep and had to go through Kithicor forest, it was a white knuckle experience the entire way. In my 30's, I remember LFG in Lower Guk and then it was a 30 minute endeavor just to get synced with the group who were deeper in the dungeon. In my 40's I could mostly reach them solo.
EverQuest wasn't too hard. Tens of thousands of players reached level 50 and continued to progress for years.
Sure, a 40 minute boat ride is excessive, but it was also pretty cool having a whole zone you could adventure in from that same boat ride. But by the time we were even high enough to level in Ocean of Tears, we didn't even really need the boat anymore. We would only use the boat to go adventure in the zone.
There's plenty of other MMO's to choose from that allow you to level to max in a matter of hours (yes hours) or days. We don't need another.
Tagaderm said:
I agree with what you are saying about what should be the difficult portions of Pantheon. I don't need useless time sinks (long boat rides/waits), long travel times through zones, or a complete lack of soloable mobs. What we need to be the most difficult aspect of this game is for players to be able to synergize together and understand their roles and how to apply them. We need the "every mob could be our last if we aren't careful" mentality. A group should steamroll through multiple mobs that are 2 level and more lower than they are and be challenged if they pull adds on mobs that are a level or two above them. Difficulty should be in the mechanics of the game not the tedium.
No one has said there will be a complete lack of soloable mobs. In fact, the dev's have stated there will be solo content, only that it will be limited in comparison to group content. Which is what we want. This is the spirit behind the game.
If the game turns out to be anything like EQ, groups will be able to steam roll green and light blue mobs. Steamroll being, mostly steady pulls without much downtime. Also the term steamroll is subjective. Mobs will take longer to kill, even at lower levels, compared to what we have grown used to with many modern mmo's out today.
Searril said:Kalok said:You're correct. The OP is missing a LARGE part of the game out of his synposis. Like all of the effort and time it took to get to level 8. He picked an arbitrary point in time to start with one small item, go get your pets, and based his entire synopsis on that.
Cherry picked data much?
Oh stop. You missed the point and now you want to be all in a huff. Just stop.
No.. I am not in a huff. Your first mistake.
Your second, I am completely right. You skip an entire section, the levelling up, which takes time, selects a small quick thing, and then claim that "difficulty is overstated". That is the very definition of cherry picking something to support your claim.
EDITED TO ADD: A vendor run isn't, and shouldn't be, an example of "how difficult" the game is or isn't.
Kalok said:No.. I am not in a huff. Your first mistake.
Your second, I am completely right. You skip an entire section, the levelling up, which takes time, selects a small quick thing, and then claim that "difficulty is overstated". That is the very definition of cherry picking something to support your claim.
EDITED TO ADD: A vendor run isn't, and shouldn't be, an example of "how difficult" the game is or isn't.
What is your argument exactly? You don't want to have to travel to get spells?
You are actually wrong, a vendor run is directly tied to difficulty. You have to work to get it. It's not just handed to you on a silver platter. You have to earn it, and in the example used above, you have to cross through some pretty dangerous territory to get there. The point the OP is making is that while he had to put some work in, it obviously wasn't so difficult he couldn't do it. It wasn't just given to him when he reached the requisite level.
But rather than just being critical of others, why don't you put forth your own solutions or opinions of how it should be?
Parascol said:Kalok said:No.. I am not in a huff. Your first mistake.
Your second, I am completely right. You skip an entire section, the levelling up, which takes time, selects a small quick thing, and then claim that "difficulty is overstated". That is the very definition of cherry picking something to support your claim.
EDITED TO ADD: A vendor run isn't, and shouldn't be, an example of "how difficult" the game is or isn't.
What is your argument exactly? You don't want to have to travel to get spells?
You are actually wrong, a vendor run is directly tied to difficulty. You have to work to get it. It's not just handed to you on a silver platter. You have to earn it, and in the example used above, you have to cross through some pretty dangerous territory to get there. The point the OP is making is that while he had to put some work in, it obviously wasn't so difficult he couldn't do it. It wasn't just given to him when he reached the requisite level.
But rather than just being critical of others, why don't you put forth your own solutions or opinions of how it should be?
No. My argument is that a vendor run is routine. Period. It's not a difficulty indicator. It's no mroe difficult than going to get groceries. The term for this sort of thing in the military is a "milk run".
I am not being critical of you. I am being critical of your example. It is a specious example of "the difficulty" or lack there-of of the game.
Kalok said:No. My argument is that a vendor run is routine. Period. It's not a difficulty indicator. It's no mroe difficult than going to get groceries. The term for this sort of thing in the military is a "milk run".
I am not being critical of you. I am being critical of your example. It is a specious example of "the difficulty" or lack there-of of the game.
It's actually not my example, but I am defending it, because those are the types of things that made EverQuest special. Because it's NOT routine. What is routine these days is you reach a new level in 5 minutes and you automatically get all your spells without doing anything.
Using your example, a better analogy would be you need to go to the store, but in order to do that you have to cross a very dangerous active battlefield to get there. In addition to that, the store is in a different country across the border whose citizens REALLY dislike you and may just kill you on sight, no questions asked. Making that sort of trek to get some produce suddenly makes it much more valuable. Every single mob and npc you encounter along the way has to be considered with extreme caution.
But mainly, I really just don't know what your stance is. What would you rather see? Do you want the game difficult, or easy? What is an acceptable level of difficulty in your eyes?
Parascol said:Kalok said:No. My argument is that a vendor run is routine. Period. It's not a difficulty indicator. It's no mroe difficult than going to get groceries. The term for this sort of thing in the military is a "milk run".
I am not being critical of you. I am being critical of your example. It is a specious example of "the difficulty" or lack there-of of the game.
It's actually not my example, but I am defending it, because those are the types of things that made EverQuest special. Because it's NOT routine. What is routine these days is you reach a new level in 5 minutes and you automatically get all your spells without doing anything.
Using your example, a better analogy would be you need to go to the store, but in order to do that you have to cross a very dangerous active battlefield to get there. In addition to that, the store is in a different country across the border whose citizens REALLY dislike you and may just kill you on sight, no questions asked. Making that sort of trek to get some produce suddenly makes it much more valuable. Every single mob and npc you encounter along the way has to be considered with extreme caution.
But mainly, I really just don't know what your stance is. What would you rather see? Do you want the game difficult, or easy? What is an acceptable level of difficulty in your eyes?
If you've read ANY post by me, you'd know that I want it difficult. Vendor runs are NOT an example of that difficulty not matter how hostile you think the area is or is not. Vendor runs are routine and are not a good example of how difficult EQ was or was not. Especially not a vendor run where you gete out of hte location back to where you came from. Not saying that gating should or should not be in the game. I was just mentioning it before you tried to say that I think that gating shouldn't be in the game given that you've misrepresented what I have said.
OK you seem pretty hostile and I'm going to disengage. I never said you wanted it one way or another. I actually asked you, because you aren't being clear, you're just arguing. I literally had no idea what your stance or opinion is, because you're just being contrarian and not adding any input other than telling someone they're wrong without any explanation as to why you feel that way. You're only putting others down. Obviously this one little example is not representive of the entire game and difficulty is subjective based on context.
Kalok said:
No. My argument is that a vendor run is routine. Period. It's not a difficulty indicator. It's no more difficult than going to get groceries.
I still think you are missing the point. A trip to HHK going thru zones where mobs could destroy you with One hit and need Invis and illusion spells just to buy something is NOT routine.
Not one game since EQ required anything more than DING to be handed all your new spells on a silver platter. No need to even go to a vendor, they just magically showed up on your bar/book.
That trip for spells IS an Excellent example of how "hard" things were in EQ vs every other MMO ever created. Now, on WoW etc. spells just show up, no need to see a trainer, no need to even look for spells.
Back when EQ1 came out, you had to download maps and print them out if you wanted to know how to make it thru a zone. Back in 1999, there was no maps to show you how to get to HHK.
There were no spell lists on EQwiki showing where the spell was, or the name of the vendor. etc.
a 20 min boat ride isn't difficult either.
Remember that Kith had evil that came out each night. if you didn't wanna wait an hour + for the darkness to subside, you had to run thru an area where lev 40+ high agro mobs chased you around the zone.
Having to travel without maps in a day and age where maps were Not readily available, it was difficult to get places that you had never been to.
I had to have help finding my way out of Neriak the first day. Try following someone on 16K modem and a 32MB graphics card.
A friend (troll) wanted me to come to come to guk.. I go owned by a Griffon 15 seconds after zoning to EC the first time. I didn't make it to the swamp needless to day.
Travel alone WAS DIFFICULT in 1999.
fast forward to today, map, travel, and spell list and where to buy will be out LONG before the game is released. That same trip in 2019, not hard.
they will have to find OTHER ways to make the game "difficult" travel USED to be hard, now it's nothing.
The things in the OP are the things I am looking for in a MMO again. Where exploring and going to places that can kill you make risk / reward meaningful. I remember many situations like that from my 1999 days when EQ launched. That being said, I am getting worried how often the devs streams need to use dev tools to make the game work. Are they trying to make the fights to hard? Or do the devs just don’t play well? I hope they are finding that balance of risk in combat, balanced with reward and penalty. I’m looking forward to seeing other people try and figure out this game. My guess it will be a while before we see some steady streaming. Because pain for the sake of pain is not a game =-)
Flapp said:Not one game since EQ required anything more than DING to be handed all your new spells on a siver platter. No need to even go to a vendor, they just magically showed up on your bar/book.
Yea... you know. Except the immediate successor to everquest and what would go on to be the largest MMO in existence... you must have missed that one.
In early wow you had to venture to your trainer to learn new spells. You also had to in most cases pick and choose what spells to upgrade or purchase because you were not making alot ot money early on.
But still... this does not increase the difficulty of the game.
Preface - I am playing full time on the blue Velious server of P1999, with a variety of levels and classes, and this about as "classic" an EQ1 experience as currently exists currently. I also play WoW, FF XIV and Conan Exiles.
That said, a vendor run to HHK for enchanter animations is not difficult as much as tedious. Waiting for boats, running across the Karanas, dodging hated spiders in FV to get to LOIO, running from bind to corpse a few thousand times as you level up...all just more tedium that simply adds to what is difficult.
The "dificult" part of EQ1 is death lurking around every corner. Not just what the devs decied to put around ever corner, but other players changing what is around which corners with overpulls, trains, panicky running willy nilly, uncontrolled pets, whoops_didnt_mean_to_cast_fear, etc. You can be doing everything right and death gets delivered to you by another player. Ask anyone who has spent time in almsot any EQ1 dungeon. Even your own teammates doing the wrong thing at the wrong time can just derail an exp group and send everyone back to their bind point in just a few seconds.
The entire world of EQ1 is dangerous, and it never lets you forget that.
Flapp said:Not one game since EQ required anything more than DING to be handed all your new spells on a silver platter. No need to even go to a vendor, they just magically showed up on your bar/book.
You'll be glad to hear that Brad has stated many times over the last few years that spells and abilities will not be auto-magically appearing in your spellbook nor will all of them be available from vendors. Players will need to venture out into the world and find some/many of them. I would not be surprised if a situation like the Enchanter spell in HHK would appear in Pantheon. Why should every race that offers the same class have access to all the same spells? Maybe the Dwarven Clerics know something the Human Clerics do not. Or that the Skar DireLords know a technique that the Ogre DireLords do not. The possibilities are endless.
Parascol said:OK you seem pretty hostile and I'm going to disengage. I never said you wanted it one way or another. I actually asked you, because you aren't being clear, you're just arguing. I literally had no idea what your stance or opinion is, because you're just being contrarian and not adding any input other than telling someone they're wrong without any explanation as to why you feel that way. You're only putting others down. Obviously this one little example is not representive of the entire game and difficulty is subjective based on context.
Actually, I have never once been hostile. Nice try at projection though. Stating faacts isn't hoostility.