philo said:I guess we can never be content with the info we receive hah.
We finally get all of the classes revealed and the next thing is about: what is the time table for the racial traits/stats?
It's understandable though...I picked my class, now we need race info!
Give them and inch..and they want a mile.
I like to plan, organize and prepare. I like to know the rules before I start and create my characters in a way that benefits them - fairly and as intended not looking for loopholes or exploits. This gives me an leaning towards being a min-maxer.
Other things being equal I will pick a class first based on what I think I will enjoy, based on what I thing can get into groups and based on what I think can get by solo when a group isn't feasible. Yes these goals conflict - that is obvious. That is where judgment comes in - and willingness to delete and start over if the choice is a bad one.
Once the class is picked I will lean towards a race that is better at that class. Especially if statistics are kept under control and a +3 bonus to a critical statistic actually matters well into the middle game if not beyond that. But if the race is so ugly my eyes bleed when I look at it I will settle for a race that isn't as good. If a race is too large and blocks my vision I will settle for a race that is less annoying.
So in short racial statistics are relevant to me but almost as a tie-breaker between races that I like rather than something I will be fixated to take advantage of.
I think racial stats will probably not matter that much by mid level ( orge with +5 str, or gnome with +5 int , these are made up examples as the only stats we have seen during character creation was during the Jim Lee stream ). What I am looking forward to seeing is how racial traits/abilities end up working out. I agree with what some people have said. They should be cool, but not so poweful that it makes playing non optimal class/race combos severely looked down upon and those characters undesired for grouping.
I don't see baseline stats being a huge difference in what they were in eq, this is just me thinking cuase we all want diversity in races/classes being played and if ogres get like 40 + more stats in str/start than elves than you will see a ton of ogres running around in tank classes and basically no elves in tank classes, so hopefully there isn't a major difference but a difference to where they are different just not that much different
Tahoe said: I am hoping that race choices will make a difference in general as well as the end game. I hated when race began to mean nothing because it diminished the feeling of the world.
My guess is that starting location, faction and alignment will be much more important factors than stats, and that they will continue to be so for many levels.
Quests/drops with race specific rewards are under utilized imo. We often get class quests, class based epic weapons etc. It would be nice if there were more rewards based on race.
I guess it might be harder to balance because classes are so different within a race but maybe the rewards could be mostly clickies usable from inventory? or just be general use items?...or it shouldn't matter if some races pecific items wouldn't be desired by certain classes I guess.
My view on racial bonuses is that they should be consistent in how they are applied. If one race has a racial ability that can not be gained by any other means - such as EQ Ogre frontal stun immunity (item / buff / aa never gave this to other races) then all races should have an ability such as this. I don't believe they all have to be 100% equally powerful (that would be insane to manage) but they should all offer something unique and useful in certain circumstances. I'm ok with things like regen being in this camp as more regen was better than less regen so races with regen were better than non regen races.
With that in mind I think this is a creative exercise where I actually see value in having a forum discussion in what we would LIKE to see as racial unique abilities. I’m going to have a think and post any ideas I have (assuming I think they are any good) .
I prefer for racials to impact stats as little as possible, but I love little flavor abilities/traits that emphasize a particular race's theme. An easy one would be underwater breathing and/or slightly faster swimming for the Dark Myr. It doesn't affect their stats, but it has a minor impact on gameplay while emphasizing a unique part of the Dark Myr's history.
Naunet said:I prefer for racials to impact stats as little as possible, but I love little flavor abilities/traits that emphasize a particular race's theme. An easy one would be underwater breathing and/or slightly faster swimming for the Dark Myr. It doesn't affect their stats, but it has a minor impact on gameplay while emphasizing a unique part of the Dark Myr's history.
Stats need to be felt, need to be noticeable otherwise they shouldn't exist. They serve no purpose. I'm a firm believe that for every positive, you need a corresponding negative. It is about balance and tradeoffs. Your example of underwater breathing for the Dark Myr sounds great. But to have a race that can breathe underwater without buff or effect needs a countering negative and that would be the Dark Myr needing a buff or spell effect allowing them to breathe in air. But there is one problem and that will be this: Underwater content will be such a small portion of the overall content that native underwater breathing just isn't special enough. Besides, the lore for the Dark Myr says they were given lungs "For there he stood far above us, hovering in the sky. A Thing unlike any I had imagined before, a Creature who may have never been made. High in the air he watched us writhe, the strange salvation of 'air' filtering through our quivering bodies, heaving out the poisonous liquid of Terminus’ oceans."
Stats just can't be the same for a race, much of it must depend upon the class for that race. A Dark Myr Cleric needs a different set of base stats than a Dark Myr Warrior or DireLord or a Dark Myr Wizard.
The problem that I always end up facing when thinking about this is that for single-stat dependent classes like the Int-based casters and Wis-based casters, the tradeoff stats are essentially meaningless. Low strength on a wizard is meaningless. So what is a good tradeoff for single-stat dependent classes?
Vandraad said:Naunet said:I prefer for racials to impact stats as little as possible, but I love little flavor abilities/traits that emphasize a particular race's theme. An easy one would be underwater breathing and/or slightly faster swimming for the Dark Myr. It doesn't affect their stats, but it has a minor impact on gameplay while emphasizing a unique part of the Dark Myr's history.
Stats need to be felt, need to be noticeable otherwise they shouldn't exist. They serve no purpose. I'm a firm believe that for every positive, you need a corresponding negative. It is about balance and tradeoffs. Your example of underwater breathing for the Dark Myr sounds great. But to have a race that can breathe underwater without buff or effect needs a countering negative and that would be the Dark Myr needing a buff or spell effect allowing them to breathe in air. But there is one problem and that will be this: Underwater content will be such a small portion of the overall content that native underwater breathing just isn't special enough. Besides, the lore for the Dark Myr says they were given lungs "For there he stood far above us, hovering in the sky. A Thing unlike any I had imagined before, a Creature who may have never been made. High in the air he watched us writhe, the strange salvation of 'air' filtering through our quivering bodies, heaving out the poisonous liquid of Terminus’ oceans."
Stats just can't be the same for a race, much of it must depend upon the class for that race. A Dark Myr Cleric needs a different set of base stats than a Dark Myr Warrior or DireLord or a Dark Myr Wizard.
The problem that I always end up facing when thinking about this is that for single-stat dependent classes like the Int-based casters and Wis-based casters, the tradeoff stats are essentially meaningless. Low strength on a wizard is meaningless. So what is a good tradeoff for single-stat dependent classes?
Each race needs to be different. You make starting stats and passives important for each race. But not game breaking. I'm wondering if stats increase per level or per certain lvls?? Or if its gear only? But making things matter is how you get more diversity in builds. That way not every 1hs and shield warrior is wearing the same gear. A halfling warrior may want more gear that gives HPs and STR / STA. But my human warrior may want more dex and agi. This will boil down to how the active and passive skills work and which stat enhance them. I think Joppa & the team will come up with something clever.
With the Dark Myr breathing under water innately and swimming faster, I like that. Maybe to offset that a little you make them drink water at double or triple the rate of other races. Or perhaps their land travel speed is 5% slower.
Vandraad said:Stats need to be felt, need to be noticeable otherwise they shouldn't exist. They serve no purpose.
I'm pretty sure I'll notice the impact of stats from my gear. I don't like feeling pressured into certain race/class combinations simply because the stats are better for one than the other.
Water-breathing was just a pull-out-of-my-ass example. I'm sure VR could come up with other, more fun racial flavor traits. And that's what I think racials should be - fun.
racials dont have to be passives
some of the racials can be different crafting recipies availible only to a specific race (i.e. elven mithril shirt recipy avavilible only to elf armorsmiths).
or a certain type of gatherable availible only to specific race (mine dwarven iron availible only to dwarven miners, smelt dwarven steel availible to dwarven smelters)
different type of gear availible only for a cpecific race (elven bow, dwarven axe, gnome potty etc etc)
racial variation of a certain spell or ability, (i.e. dark myr waterball instead of standard fireball or dwarven dodge roll instead of standard dodge roll)
Vandraad said:The problem that I always end up facing when thinking about this is that for single-stat dependent classes like the Int-based casters and Wis-based casters, the tradeoff stats are essentially meaningless. Low strength on a wizard is meaningless. So what is a good tradeoff for single-stat dependent classes?
It may not be as simple as you think. Read this quote from Bazgrim's transcript of the recent MMORPGcom stream with Brad and Chris:
There will also be distinctions based on your itemization through modifying attributes on your abilities. For example, the goal is to make a Wizard not only be hunting for Intelligence, but to give them reasons to develop Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma, or even Stamina in different ways - not only because of the universal things those stats do, but because there are unique modifiers that those stats do for certain abilities.
Maybe the wizard finds a Magic Warhammer spell where STR actually matters. Who knows?
BTW: I highly recommend watching that stream, or reading Bazgrim's exellent transript elsewhere on this forum.
Naunet said:I prefer for racials to impact stats as little as possible, but I love little flavor abilities/traits that emphasize a particular race's theme. An easy one would be underwater breathing and/or slightly faster swimming for the Dark Myr. It doesn't affect their stats, but it has a minor impact on gameplay while emphasizing a unique part of the Dark Myr's history.
I agree with this too. The differences should be negligible. The swimming is a good example, and maybe longer breath under water. Elves see better in the dark. Some resist/ acclimation bonuses based on race. Etc. Environmental hings like that. Base stat differences should be negligible, otherwise everyone will be rolling an ogre warrior.
Parascol said:I agree with this too. The differences should be negligible. The swimming is a good example, and maybe longer breath under water. Elves see better in the dark. Some resist/ acclimation bonuses based on race. Etc. Environmental hings like that. Base stat differences should be negligible, otherwise everyone will be rolling an ogre warrior.
Oh slight environmental resistances would be good, too. And I like the night vision idea.
I also really enjoy racially distinct emotes.
Something I think could be cool regarding racial benefits is a small buff you get for spending time in your race's home city. This could be similar to what current MMOs have like "rested" buff when you log out in an inn. This could give players incentive to make the journey home every once in a while to get some sort of perk.
As far as race speciific stats/traits, many people already said some good ideas; The swimming one is good, certain races being a bit better at certain types of crafts is another one I like. Certain races acclimating easy to some climates and slower to others... certain races need less perception to unlock quests in zones that are close to their home city... that sort of thing sounds good to me.