Jhey said: I really enjoy sticking with one character and kind of establishing myself.
After hitting level cap you can choose to start back at level 1 with another applicable class. No extra stats or perks from the Progeny System, but you now have the ability to switch classes at your home/safe haven/etc. This way, those of us who want to stick with one character can keep making progress.
Grimix said: Pretty much if you started shaman and leveled to 50 then decided to level monk, you would not instantly become a level 50 monk. You will go back to level one and be required to level and complete all the associated quest required of the job. You don't loose access to your shaman, it's still level 50, but while your class is set to monk, you are a monk. No cross of class abilities or stats...
Um... Isn't this exactly how having an Alt works?
Your basically saying "When you switch to Shaman, your character is a shaman with all shaman abilities... when you switch to Monk, your character is a monk with all Monk abilities..." and you do this switch while you are at your home/safe haven.
This is exactly what having an Alt is. You have a Shaman character and a Monk character. Your 'switch classes' is called Log Out with one character and Log In with the other character.
You are basically just suggesting that you want to be able to switch characters without logging out of the game and that the new character will appear in the same spot as the current character and not where you logged off last with that other character. Oh and you want all your characters to share the same name and have the same inventory, meaning you would need to carry around all the gear for all your characters all the time.
And your reason for wanting all of this is so that you can pretend that all your characters are just the same character who's leveled up all the different classes.
Goofy you and I think much alike on this issue, but in fairness there may be more to it.
Having one character with multiple classes is much like having multiple characters but when it switches to a new class at level 1 it may not need to redo the grinding or quests to get faction or titles or the like. Plus it would keep its name. That may be the whole point to suggesting "one character many classes".
This was the system in FFXIV - I hated it. It makes it far too fast and easy to have a character play multiple roles since all a character needs to do when dual classing is go back and do things specific to the new class, not repeat everything a true "alt" would have to do starting at level one.
This was close to the system in Rift where one character could only be one class but since any class could play any role - so what? I didn't like that feature of Rift either.
At the end of the day there are tangible differences between an alt and being able to switch the class/level of your character. As Dorotea pointed out, you share the same inventory, completed quests, bind location, faction, access keys, etc. Yes, this may come as a shocker to people but there is a sizable portion of the population that wants to spend the vast majority of their time on a single character. There are a lot of people who specifically avoid rolling alts because they feel they could never commit the same care and consideration that they put into their main character. This basically means that the "main-focused" players get congested near end-game and do nothing to stimulate the lower level spheres. That's less players for grouping, less buyers/sellers for harvesting/crafting, and less overall content that is consumed.
There are benefits to both having an alt or being able to switch out your class. With alts you can repeat the same quests and make more money. You get multiple characters on different lockout timers (not sure if these will be a thing in Pantheon but it's definitely a major consideration) ... more bank space, more accessibility to the world (you can park an alt in another city to monitor it's auction house or trade activity, use it to watch for a rare spawn/event, or be able to switch to another class/role by switching to an alt that could be logged out in the same location) -- you get none of these things with the FF model.
With class switching you get to maintain your name (reputation is supposed to be important in this game), faction, and access keys. It requires the same amount of vertical progression (the areas that need stimulated) but allows players to retain horizontal progression metrics which can be enticing when someone considers rolling another class. It's really that simple. If you want main-focused players to participate in the lower spheres (when they otherwise would not have) then offer them an avenue to do it. It worked in FFXI and there is no reason it couldn't work here.
I'm sure there are plenty of EQ players who might not appreciate something like this because it's unknown or foreign to them. Just like with FF players the idea of a dead zone or weak low-mid economy are things they haven't had to deal with. There are very specific goals associated with progeny and the FF model has a proven track record of success for delivering on most of them. I think progeny would be a great outlet for this kind of system so if we're serious about alleviating some of the pain points it was meant to solve then it makes plenty of sense to consider the options that are available to best make it happen.
My vision of the progeny system is as follows. You level up class X, then restart as class Y. You gain one (maybe more) benefit that is based on Class X and Class Y and that makes sense.
Examples -
Warrior restarts as warrior and gains a bonus to defense or dodge.
Rogue restarts as a warrior (or any melee) and gains a bonus to dps.
Cleric restarts as a warrior and gains a small heal over time, nothing spectacular. Or increased damage against undead if you prefer.
Warrior restarts as a wizard and gains a threat reduction (from understanding threat mechanics better from his/her time as a warrior).
Wizard restarts as a Summoner and gains increased spell damage.
It makes sense from a role-playing perspective - if you're the son or daughter of a rogue it makes sense that you can find chinks in the armor of an opponent more easily than the son or daughter of a baker. It adds a lot of combinations that could add diversity. As long as it is designed to not be necessary or too OP, I think it would be great.
dorotea said:This was the system in FFXIV - I hated it. It makes it far too fast and easy to have a character play multiple roles since all a character needs to do when dual classing is go back and do things specific to the new class, not repeat everything a true "alt" would have to do starting at level one.
Few people keep mentioning FFXIV and that's not what I am suggesting at all. In that game you can change classes on the fly without many issues.
In FFXI, you can only change jobs in designated areas (big cities, very few other locations beyond that). Also it's up to you to manually prepare your inventory for the change. In no way does it make the leveling easier or faster either. You may have depleted resources (such as quest that grant EXP) leveling your first class as well.
Jhey said:Few people keep mentioning FFXIV and that's not what I am suggesting at all. In that game you can change classes on the fly without many issues.
In FFXI, you can only change jobs in designated areas (big cities, very few other locations beyond that). Also it's up to you to manually prepare your inventory for the change. In no way does it make the leveling easier or faster either. You may have depleted resources (such as quest that grant EXP) leveling your first class as well.
Doesn't really matter, being able to have it all on one character would neuter actually having alts (especially in a game like Pantheon where questing is not the focus nor main means of leveling) if not make it a disadvantage entirely like it did in FFXIV and FFXI.
Being able to transfer the most powerful items (typically flagged no-drop and locked behind keyed/gated areas) effortlessly, being able to finish almost any quest by farming the items alone on the main character and turning in on the alt, and not having to re-obtain factions/keys/whatever else puts the limited benefits of a real alt to shame.
Personally I'm not in favor of the prodigy system as its described.
“Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).”
On the surface it may sound good, but theres no doubt in my mind that any stat bonus that would help raid/group content will become the Gear score requirement, thus forcing anyone who want to enjoy end game content to “retire” characters for selected stats.
That said I'm not opposed to any stat bonus that didn't involve combat or anything that would be beneficial to a Group/Raid. This could be bonus for better merchant prices, increased fishing skills, less fall damage, larger storage space, ect……
Maybe these stats are just granted for playing Another “hero” after retiring the last, but personally id Rather not retire my main, and just create a child/descendant who’s a trader that drives a caravan from town to town delivering goods, or a fisherman that sells his hauls to the local merchant,or perhaps a cartographer who makes maps by exploring.
I think it would be good to see non-hero types as players, who fill the towns with goods and services. There are lot of specialties that could be maintained by players thus giving lots of things to do, while also generating a larger interaction among the player base. Maybe that island out in the ocean needs a bridge to be built before any adventuring could take place, the stone masons, architect's, lumberjacks ect…
It’s just a thought, but maybe veteran players could mingle with newer players as non-hero's who are just as important.
Iksar said:Jhey said:Few people keep mentioning FFXIV and that's not what I am suggesting at all. In that game you can change classes on the fly without many issues.
In FFXI, you can only change jobs in designated areas (big cities, very few other locations beyond that). Also it's up to you to manually prepare your inventory for the change. In no way does it make the leveling easier or faster either. You may have depleted resources (such as quest that grant EXP) leveling your first class as well.
Doesn't really matter, being able to have it all on one character would neuter actually having alts (especially in a game like Pantheon where questing is not the focus nor main means of leveling) if not make it a disadvantage entirely like it did in FFXIV and FFXI.
Being able to transfer the most powerful items (typically flagged no-drop and locked behind keyed/gated areas) effortlessly, being able to finish almost any quest by farming the items alone on the main character and turning in on the alt, and not having to re-obtain factions/keys/whatever else puts the limited benefits of a real alt to shame.
Hm. I can see that to be honest.
FFXI got around this by having certain no-drop special items only be obtainable once. For example, one of the longest and most difficult campaigns involved hundreds of hours of playtime through incredibly difficult content that all required a full team of experienced players. At the end you were presented with the option to obtain a single ring tailored for 3 specific things. It's an immensly difficut choice.
But I suppose with other no-drop items you could farm them up on your higher level classes. I definitely do feel like they could work around this if they wanted to offer this kind thing to the players though.
There is a lot of discussion about keeping the high level player and just changing his class. The Progeny system will be a new_player01. How the main character is handled after new_player01 is created is my concern. I still want access to my main character for raiding and such, so if i do not have access to him i will not utilize the progeny system unless it offers a significant reason. I have suggested in previous posts that if we are allowed to EARN whatever bonus these progeny gain after we hit max level than i would rather just keep my one main character. Otherwise i will just create alts right out the gate and level them all independently.
There are some people that min/max and would love a reason to start over and min/max a new character with whatever bonus. There are some people that would only use this system for the bonus.
So either make the bonus earnable at max level, or make the bonus not that great and something that decreases as you level up so that max level raiders arent benefiting from said bonus. Or something that is visual or non-combat related.
The system can make more sense if it was done in the sense of advanced archtypes.
The example I will give is paladin > Cavalier . The character on progeny , is reduced to a level 1 Cavalier.
This character retains all paladin abilitys, flags , etc etc with the addition of new abilitys or a stat modifier for being a progeny.
This will help replayability and you are no longer rehashing content for the sake of rehashing for a 1 % stat modifier.
Also from a development point of view it might be easier for balancing, and additional classes can be easily added in this sense ie bard , necro etc.
oneADseven said:At the end of the day there are tangible differences between an alt and being able to switch the class/level of your character. As Dorotea pointed out, you share the same inventory, completed quests, bind location, faction, access keys, etc. Yes, this may come as a shocker to people but there is a sizable portion of the population that wants to spend the vast majority of their time on a single character. There are a lot of people who specifically avoid rolling alts because they feel they could never commit the same care and consideration that they put into their main character. This basically means that the "main-focused" players get congested near end-game and do nothing to stimulate the lower level spheres. That's less players for grouping, less buyers/sellers for harvesting/crafting, and less overall content that is consumed.
There are benefits to both having an alt or being able to switch out your class. With alts you can repeat the same quests and make more money. You get multiple characters on different lockout timers (not sure if these will be a thing in Pantheon but it's definitely a major consideration) ... more bank space, more accessibility to the world (you can park an alt in another city to monitor it's auction house or trade activity, use it to watch for a rare spawn/event, or be able to switch to another class/role by switching to an alt that could be logged out in the same location) -- you get none of these things with the FF model.
With class switching you get to maintain your name (reputation is supposed to be important in this game), faction, and access keys. It requires the same amount of vertical progression (the areas that need stimulated) but allows players to retain horizontal progression metrics which can be enticing when someone considers rolling another class. It's really that simple. If you want main-focused players to participate in the lower spheres (when they otherwise would not have) then offer them an avenue to do it. It worked in FFXI and there is no reason it couldn't work here.
I'm sure there are plenty of EQ players who might not appreciate something like this because it's unknown or foreign to them. Just like with FF players the idea of a dead zone or weak low-mid economy are things they haven't had to deal with. There are very specific goals associated with progeny and the FF model has a proven track record of success for delivering on most of them. I think progeny would be a great outlet for this kind of system so if we're serious about alleviating some of the pain points it was meant to solve then it makes plenty of sense to consider the options that are available to best make it happen.
Perfectly stated:)
If you think your rep mattered in EQ, in ffxi you almost never had an alt to run to after tearing your main's rep up. It got to a point where you were commited to that character and you were that character. You were not known by any other name but the character that you leveled multiple classes on, it was almost like having a second life where you actually lived in a world through your characters body.
I get it, people like alts...but some people don't! If designed correctly it wouldn't have any of the adverse affects that some are assuming will accompany such a system. Even with me having a ton of help(access to friends with max level characters), the wonders of the internet and information exhange, and having a large amount of money given to me by a friend I still did not hit max level for at least 8 months, playing 8-10 hours a day and more on weekends(when I had absoultely no life lol!) Yes I leveled a few jobs in that time frame to figure out what I liked best but It did not change the slow grind and numerous milestones I needed to pass in order to get one class to max level.
Also, FFXIV is a horrible example of how such a system could work.
Iksar said:Doesn't really matter, being able to have it all on one character would neuter actually having alts (especially in a game like Pantheon where questing is not the focus nor main means of leveling) if not make it a disadvantage entirely like it did in FFXIV and FFXI.
Being able to transfer the most powerful items (typically flagged no-drop and locked behind keyed/gated areas) effortlessly, being able to finish almost any quest by farming the items alone on the main character and turning in on the alt, and not having to re-obtain factions/keys/whatever else puts the limited benefits of a real alt to shame.
Wouldn't that essentially happen with alts since they share one bank account? You would just give your alt money, gear, ect to give them a boost how is that any different?