Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Crazy idea for bank space, money sink, and alts

    • 1492 posts
    July 29, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    Hey all,

    So somehow, the thread about money sinks and the thread about managing alts merged in my head and sparked a crazy idea.  I wanted to share this idea with everyone and see what you all think.  I admit it's pretty radical in some ways and I can't think of another game that has done this that I've seen.  But I also can't really think of a downside to doing it.  Maybe you can.

    Here's the idea:

    - In order to utilize the bank you must "purchase" item capacity.  The base rate for item capacity is something small like 5 cp/item.  So spend 50 cp, get 10 capacity.  Spend 20 silver, get 400 capacity.  That sort of thing.

    - Each "item" you put in the bank takes up one unit of capacity.  Items in containers such as bags still count, so a 10-slot bag full of stuff takes up 11 capacity.  Stacks take up only 1 capacity though, so those 150 arrows only count as 1 unit of capacity.

    - There would be shared bank slots that work the same way but are purchased at a slightly higher cost, maybe 8cp/item or something.

    - Every 30 RL days, you have to "re-buy" your item capacity.  If you don't do this, you can still withdraw items that are within the bank, but you cannot deposit items.

    - If you wish, you can store money in the bank (also useful for other reasons), and then configure your bank to auto-renew your item capacity each month using stored funds.  As long as there's enough coin available, it will auto-renew.

    - Maximum item capacity in the bank is effectively unlimited (or, with a super-high limit based on database restrictions).  Go nuts, purchase 1000 capacity if you want to.  If you've got the cash to cover it month to month, more power to you.

     

    I think this idea would accomplish a couple of things.  First, it would act as a scaling money sink for the game economy.  You pay for what you use.  So you as a player can determine how much you're willing to pay for and adjust that amount over time.  But the money leaves the game economy.  It would also cut down on people using alts to get around storage limitations on bank, without really penalizing people who want to run multiple characters and/or trade items between them for whatever purpose.

    Anyway, that's the crazy idea.  Curious to hear what people think about it.

    • 373 posts
    July 29, 2018 4:44 PM PDT

    Not really a crazy idea IMO.  LOTRO has a system like this, but you're buying space from the cash shop, so it's permanent.  But if you don't pay your housing fee, stuff from your housing storage goes into escrow, where you can still withdraw it.  So it's definitely doable.  

     

    Honestly, this is a no-brainer.

    • 1003 posts
    July 29, 2018 4:53 PM PDT

    Trasak stands on his soap box chants, “Down with the Unit Volume System, Up with Realistic Volume System. Lists over Squares!!!!” “Why do 20 chain mail shirts, each made of 1000s of rings take up as much bag space as 20 gold rings, Its a conspiracy by the Bag Makers Union I tell you!!”

    That being said I like the idea. I would take it even one step further and have banks be localized so that your item storage in Thronefast is not accessible in another major city, though I could see your cash balance being accessible. You could store all your ore you are farming from the mountains in a nearby bank until your Smith friend gets on to smelt it for you without clogging up your raid gear bank.

    I am also guilty of watching Storage Wars so it tickles my fancy for the bank to put your items up for auction if you don't pay your bank rent for more than 6 months, which could actually pull a LOT of money out of the economy.

    I could see this working for both Unit Volume where you pay by slot and Realistic Volume where you pay in increments of volume for storage chests.

     

    • 1140 posts
    July 29, 2018 4:57 PM PDT

    I'd like the idea beetter if it was more of a "nice to have.  For instance, you get a "base storage" for free of x number of slots....  Then after that if you want more it becomes a "money sink", like a safety deposit box.

    • 407 posts
    July 29, 2018 5:00 PM PDT

    I feel like "renting" space is the more common way of explaining this concept than "re-buying" on a monthly basis, but I would be fine with a system like this. Recurring fees for conveniences is often a good route to controlling the economy, but there are limits. If you provide a monthly fee to boost your character's move speed (even just out of combat, then that could start to feel like pay to win where payment comes from RMT. Just to clarify though, I think your concept treads on the right side of the line (barring crafting requiring tons of slots for profitability or something).

    I was very fond of Trasak's unit volume suggestion when the thread was created and I still am. You stay on that soap box buddy.

    • 637 posts
    July 29, 2018 5:33 PM PDT
    Lol @Trasak. I do like the idea of localized banks. Maybe having one or two slots that’s are globally. But you’d have even more space if possibly based off
    Faction within a city you gained access to that bank. Giving you the chance of having more storage. Let’s face it, we’re not always gonna be in one area to bank
    • 649 posts
    July 29, 2018 6:06 PM PDT

    I am not a fan, personally. One time fees are fine (e.g. unlocking additional slots), but I don't really like recurring fees just to access a basic feature.

    zoltar said:Not really a crazy idea IMO.  LOTRO has a system like this, but you're buying space from the cash shop, so it's permanent.  But if you don't pay your housing fee, stuff from your housing storage goes into escrow, where you can still withdraw it.  So it's definitely doable.

    LOTRO does that with housing because there's only a limited number of housing plots available.


    This post was edited by Naunet at July 29, 2018 6:07 PM PDT
    • 21 posts
    July 29, 2018 6:41 PM PDT

    I would actually love localized banks, but I feel too many people would not like the extra hassle of not having everything always available quickly haha.

    • 2589 posts
    July 29, 2018 7:29 PM PDT

    Localized banks have been discussed in more than one thread and have gotten a fair amount of support here - wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see them.

    The concept goes quite well with localized markets which they are definitely leaning towards.

    I definitely like the idea.

    How inconvenient it is depends largely on how the mail system works. With very limited mail, and mail delivery taking days or weeks not seconds, having localized banks would be quite inconvenient.

    But given the basic premise of Terminus I think slow and painful communications between areas that came from totally different planets or even universes makes enormous sense and I support it for both banks and mail. I wasn't a big fan of localized AHs when that was debated but the more I think about it the more I think I was wrong and a global AH is just the wrong way to go also.

    Some of the things planned for the game - slow travel - corpse runs - training - are intended to make progress slow and inconvenient. It is the goal not a byproduct. Why not the same with the economy?

    People couldn't mail things from character to character or use banks to transfer from character to character in quite a few MMOs when they started - where faction was an issue. Unless the characters were in the same faction. I liked it then and like it now with geography substituted for faction in Pantheon.

    Holding items, as distinct from cash, is a service traditionally charged for by banks. Free deposit of items is simply illogical - we should pay storage fees. Not as a money sink but because it makes sense.


    This post was edited by dorotea at July 29, 2018 7:36 PM PDT
    • 373 posts
    July 29, 2018 7:33 PM PDT

    Naunet said:

    I am not a fan, personally. One time fees are fine (e.g. unlocking additional slots), but I don't really like recurring fees just to access a basic feature.

    zoltar said:Not really a crazy idea IMO.  LOTRO has a system like this, but you're buying space from the cash shop, so it's permanent.  But if you don't pay your housing fee, stuff from your housing storage goes into escrow, where you can still withdraw it.  So it's definitely doable.

    LOTRO does that with housing because there's only a limited number of housing plots available.

     

    That's true, but LOTRO also has item wear/repair as a money sink.  That's not planned for Pantheon, so this would be a good substitute.

    • 1493 posts
    July 29, 2018 8:14 PM PDT

    I simply love the idea, and i hope it get implemented, especially the localized banking, my thoughts are running wild on how i could utilize that.

    • 649 posts
    July 29, 2018 8:17 PM PDT

    zoltar said:That's true, but LOTRO also has item wear/repair as a money sink.  That's not planned for Pantheon, so this would be a good substitute.

    Good point. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but it's fair that there should be a one-to-one substitute if VR isn't doing gear repair (weird decision!).

    • 1493 posts
    July 29, 2018 8:41 PM PDT
    Gear repair because you died was a very low death penalty and I'm simply glad they aren't doing it, death needs to mean something and have made it a point to do so, so they can keep the gear repairs on them mmos that treat death with kid gloves of they want but I want it to hurt, but back on topic I still love the decision man hope you get more great ideas
    • 332 posts
    July 30, 2018 4:08 AM PDT

    I really hate the idea. why should you pay to keep your treasures safe. I think you should get a limited amount of bank space and if you need/want more than pay for it once. As in lotro . Maybe the bank should give you interest on your money you have deposited?? 

    • 652 posts
    July 30, 2018 4:16 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    - Every 30 RL days, you have to "re-buy" your item capacity.  If you don't do this, you can still withdraw items that are within the bank, but you cannot deposit items.

     

    Not a bad Idea, but THIS part wont work. especially if someone uses alts. 

    Just transfer items to your alt, put them in the bank indefinitely for 5cp? Unless your depositing and withdrawing items all the time, there is nothing to stop you from just putting stuff in there for long term storage.

    If there is no consequence for not paying then it's easy to abuse.

    Maybe, pay your 5cp, and if you go over 30 days, you NEED to pay any back owed amounts to withdraw from those slots or to buy rent more.

     

     

    • 1003 posts
    July 30, 2018 5:09 AM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Nephele said:

    - Every 30 RL days, you have to "re-buy" your item capacity.  If you don't do this, you can still withdraw items that are within the bank, but you cannot deposit items.

    Not a bad Idea, but THIS part wont work. especially if someone uses alts. 

    Just transfer items to your alt, put them in the bank indefinitely for 5cp? Unless your depositing and withdrawing items all the time, there is nothing to stop you from just putting stuff in there for long term storage.

    If there is no consequence for not paying then it's easy to abuse.

    Maybe, pay your 5cp, and if you go over 30 days, you NEED to pay any back owed amounts to withdraw from those slots or to buy rent more.

    I wonder if you could set it so that the first 20 squares or 1 cubic meter can be purchased life time then anything over that is rented and automatically deducted from your bank account.  Once your bank account reaches 0 all but your lifetime storage becomes locked and the fees start piling up.  After 6 months of not paying the bank will put your items in the rented space up for auction.  The ammount you owe is deducted from the sale then 50% goes into your bank accound and 50% gets eaten by the system as a money sink.


    This post was edited by Trasak at July 30, 2018 5:10 AM PDT
    • 1173 posts
    July 30, 2018 8:33 AM PDT

    I really think the WoW system for banking was the best I've seen.  You started with 20 slots available (iirc) and you could "buy" additional bag slots. So as your bags increased in capacity so did you're overall bank space.  Each bag alot was substantially more expensive than the previous. So it really came down to a choice.  Do I need to keep all these items... is it worth spending x% of my money currently... or do I "spring clean" and save the money for something else.

    • 649 posts
    July 30, 2018 8:36 AM PDT

    Porygon said:I really think the WoW system for banking was the best I've seen.  You started with 20 slots available (iirc) and you could "buy" additional bag slots. So as your bags increased in capacity so did you're overall bank space.  Each bag alot was substantially more expensive than the previous. So it really came down to a choice.  Do I need to keep all these items... is it worth spending x% of my money currently... or do I "spring clean" and save the money for something else.

    Agreed! Also allows for easy, natural expansion of bank space later on, if larger craftable bag sizes are released. (And bags are a great supply of income for crafting players.)

    • 393 posts
    July 30, 2018 12:47 PM PDT

    I agree with having a minimum of bankslots and shared bank slots. Rent free/upkeep free. (good for starting players and players who do not play often/frequently enough to commit to raising money)

    I'm not a fan of the bank getting a hold of your items when you can't pay up any longer, the dev's could just put a lock on it, saying you can not deposit anymore before clearing up bankspace.

    If you want extra's it's going to cost you and you'll pay upkeep. As you would on a house/innroom. 

    Seeing that indeed they are thinking in lines of local markets, a local bank does make sense. (On the other side, I could see it change, due to a lot of player complaints) 

    But I like it very much.

    It's convenient that 1 arrow takes as much bankslotspace as 1000. It's not logical per se, but i'll take it as a neccesity.

    @Trasak Perhaps an item could have a certain 'weight' to it. Meaning that 1 mail chestpiece would take up the same 'amount of weight' as 100 arrows. And a bankslot could hold/carry up to a fix number of 'item weight'. So it could still allow for 1000 arrows to hold, as this could be the same as the limit of 'item weight' AND 10 mail chestpieces could have the same 'item weight' as those 1000 arrows and so all 10 of them would max out the bankslot when it comes to 'item weight'.

    I'll add to that with the larger bags/container thing... A bag/container could 'expand' the limit of maximum 'item weight'. So one bankslot could hold a larger amount the same items.

    If you keep to 'renting' bankslots, Game expansions themselves could unlock more bankspace to be rented by players and the bags could scale up with the 'item weight'-thingie. (Gradually giving players more and more bankslots, instead of things possibly blowing out of proportion due to players purchasing 20 extra bankslots at launch)

    This would allow players to expand their number of available bankslots and the amount of 'item weight' one could place the same item into one bankslot.

     

    What do you say?

     


    This post was edited by Barin999 at July 30, 2018 12:49 PM PDT
    • 34 posts
    July 30, 2018 1:55 PM PDT

    I think we need to keep a grasp on the bigger picture.  The two main camps in this thread, those who think that's too much money and want free slots up front, and those who think we should do it at all since it's not enough of a money sink, are missing one crucial piece when looking at this.  Paying small fees for bank slots is not the be-all, end-all for money sink to keep inflation down.  It is meant to be an addition to the other measures.  Think of money sinks that are already possible: food, water, potions, mail, buffs by NPCs, buying faction...  None of these by themself should drive money sink, but balance between a number of different sinks is what is needed.  I personally love the idea of HP and mana pots purchaseable from NPCs.  Balanced properly, they could contribute their share to getting cash out of the market.  But what gives this idea that Nephele has thrown out merit is that this is something EVERYONE can and WILL pay, so it spreads the burden out so that it doesn't cost much.  That seemingly negligible amount adds up from every char.

    If done, I would support no withdrawals without paying rent, and i would go so far as to add over a certain amount per char, say 10 slots, the price per each addtl slot rises at a multiplied rate.  If you're bougie enough to need 200 bank slots, you're bougie enough to pay for em, which is the point.  Take excess currency that people don't mind throwing away and get it out of the market.

    • 649 posts
    July 30, 2018 1:59 PM PDT

    benonal said:If you're bougie enough to need 200 bank slots, you're bougie enough to pay for em, which is the point.  Take excess currency that people don't mind throwing away and get it out of the market.

    I don't think you need to be "bougie" to want a large amount of bank space. I like to save mementos of playtime - memorable weapons, purely cosmetic toys, letters or lorebooks or whatever else - and that adds up quite a lot. Bank space will be especially needed if VR decides to go with a more... unfortunately dated approach to costuming and requires you to keep the physical items in your inventory to use them. It has nothing to do with being "bougie".

    • 1694 posts
    July 30, 2018 2:05 PM PDT

    This feels like a straight up tax that is just going to be tedious, unfun, and drive people away. 

    • 582 posts
    July 30, 2018 2:34 PM PDT

    Buying space in a bank, sure I'm good with that. Even renting it for a time period for a low cost, fine. But unlimited space based on cash available, no thanks. The thing with this is that space forces you to make choices. Do you keep those outdated lowbie boots cuz of the sentiment behind them or do you sell them to create more space for storage. It also falls into server issues when you have 5k+ people all with 1k storage spots. That's increasing the amount of data accessed by the server by alot. 

    • 373 posts
    July 30, 2018 3:02 PM PDT

    How about you lease a certain amount of space for a year for a flat fee.  Take whatever you think would be a fair price for buying the storage permanently, and divide it by 2 or 3.  So you're actually saving money up front.  But it gives VR the flexibilty to adjust things down the line if they need to counter inflation.


    This post was edited by zoltar at July 30, 2018 3:04 PM PDT
    • 1003 posts
    July 30, 2018 3:04 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    Buying space in a bank, sure I'm good with that. Even renting it for a time period for a low cost, fine. But unlimited space based on cash available, no thanks. The thing with this is that space forces you to make choices. Do you keep those outdated lowbie boots cuz of the sentiment behind them or do you sell them to create more space for storage. It also falls into server issues when you have 5k+ people all with 1k storage spots. That's increasing the amount of data accessed by the server by alot. 

    You could set the rent prices as exponential growth the more space you rent and you need to pay the month upfront.  That way you could still store a lot for a short amount of time but if you leave it in there too long it will really drain your resources and eventually all the items will go up for auction.