We Never used voice chat in Eq days, and we ran succesful raids for years and with MUCH bigger raid groups then you get in modern mmo's, i remember 90man plane of hate raids that went on for an entire weekend not just a few hours and we seemed to manage just fine. Heck healers had a seperate chat channel to communicate their position in the healings rotation ( casting full heal on the tank )
Downtime wasnt just there so people could socialize, it was also there to slow the pace down a bit, Pantheon like Eq and vanguard is a slower paced more strategic focused game with a focus also on bringing the social aspect of the game back and an emphasis on grouping, again like the old days.
Sure we can use voice chat, Sure we can ignore groups and solo if we want to, but for the most part with the game being group and social focused, and being slower paced i dont think Voice chat will be a huge problem
There are so many angles that I can look at this from. I've played games where voice was important / used and games where it wasn't. The success or failure of voice in those games, for me, depended on what the game was and what I was trying to do in it.
The first thing to consider is that each of these options can potentially be valuable to players with special needs. Voice can make it easier to communicate things to players with vision problems or to get a response from someone who has any limitation to the use of their hands. On the other hand, text can remove a barrier when playing with anyone who is deaf or who has any other level of hearing loss. Another consideration is players with dyslexia, who may struggle with typing their thoughts and may feel uncomfortable letting people see the errors they make for fear of judgement.
I do agree with the fact that text based play tends to lead to higher immersion, especially when dealing with RP. I was an avid role player for years and did that via text. Nowdays I do a bit of light, humorous voice based RP when gaming with my bf or our friends, but nothing on the scale of what I did in stuff like Cheeta Chat / Yahoo! Chat RP channels or MUDs like Realms of Kaos.
Xbachs I certainly agree with you that voice chat can make a group or raid much more efficient, and make it much more likely to win. Particularly in an established group not a PUG hastily thrown together.
It can also make it harder to win, when four people are talking at once and a dog is barking and the pull comes as a total surprise and only 2 people have any idea what the leader said to do. With all its disadvantages, typing is harder to drown out and confuse.
Let's agree on this - voice chat is a tool and like any tool it can make things better if used perfectly and make things worse if used poorly.
You look to the advantages, some of us look to the disadvantages, and we are all correct so far as it goes.
Since they have said they will make in-game voice available let us all wait and see. As with any of their decisions, if it works well in testing they will do it, if it works more poorly than expected in testing they will reconsider. That is what testing is for. My bet is they will do it and most people won't use it. PUGs will mostly have people that refuse to use it (for good reasons or bad reasons) and larger guilds will mostly use commercial voice chat programs - they aren't that expensive or hard to use and the quality is likely to be better.
dorotea said:Let's agree on this - voice chat is a tool and like any tool it can make things better if used perfectly and make things worse if used poorly.
This is a very good post. For all my abrasiveness this is all I really wanted to say. I honestly think it will be flexible enough to not be intrusive. Like many others here I absolutely will not under any circumstances be listening to ragers, blabbermouths, idiots, barking dogs, crying babies, someone elses music or television, or any of that nonsense. If that is the price of being in a group I will not be in that group. If that is the price of playing the game I will not be playing the game. VR knows all of this and will make it work, that is what I think.
I don't understand the sentiment that we "couldnt" socialize while fighting in eq. When I first started playing I played a necro and would regularly kite multiple mobs while maintaining multiple conversations.
And infact later on in my eq career, I started 2 and 3 and 4 boxing because playing 1 character no matter what it was. Was very boring.
I literally do not think voice chat will have any impact on how the game is designed or played lol.
I never use game designed voice chat however in our guild a third party voice chat progam is required. You never have to speak if you would rather type but its required to have to listen to group leader or raid leader. Its use is not for idle chat its for game related chat. If you can't keep your mouth shut about non game related topics you will be muted and warned. If you continue you get booted from the guild.
I have found the group reacts much faster to the game with voice chat vs someone taking the time to type especially those who are not fast typers....
I think playstyles can significantly impact whether or not people are going to want to use voice.
Vast majority of the time I'll play utility classes, and have spent a lot of time in the last two decades as a kite crowd control, puller, general 'oh ****' button on raids. Voice chat is a huge benefit for that type of playstyle, where when you're busy, you're too busy to read/type in a chat window.
I certainly agree that a required, possibly toxic, voice chat, isnt reasonable. Likewise, just flat removing it will make it more complicated to run non-standard groups without pushing people into a third party vchat anyway.
Truly, there is zero reason to not have it as an option. If the argument is 'but then Ill be left out', thats kind of a no brainer. If the content, group make up, or type of play being performed in a group requires it, then yeah, you'll be left out. Thats your choice.
Honestly? I wish they would remove any in-game voice chat. It simply gets in the way of a proper tool like Discord.
And anybody looking to raid without Voice, good luck with that. You don't have to have a mic, you simply have to be able to hear what is going on and follow instructions. Its simply par for the course in 2018 and probably a good 90% of the people are already setup for it before they even start a game.
in-game voice is not a hard feature to put in. They can easily look to how so many other games have done it. Pantheon is meant to bring back the real of older games, but with basic modern conveniences.
I like in game voice programs, because it’s the least common denominator. If I am in a group I don’t care about, doing the same zone I have done a hundred times, chat is fine. But, if I want to explore a new area with people I care about, I want the freedom of quick and clear communication. I personally loathe having to figure out how to get everyone onto the same voice program, troubleshoot and delay. So, much easier if there is a basic system that the group has.
For a raid or some guild group, I would probably use discord or something else. But, I do not wish to populate my discord with everyones random channel.
Lastly, I am not going to interrupt combat and exploration to stare at a chat interface.
I personally don't think voice chat would ruin the game as long as it's not a zone-wide effect and works based on distance. (Guild chat would not be part of voice chat and would be typed still)
Also, don't forget the option to mute others.
I find it brings a lot of immersion, just look at the game SOS for an example of how well it does work. People trade quick, they are able to form groups quick, and communication allows for some funny commentary. I would love to pretend to role play my character with voice acting as well. :D
I didn't play much of EQ1 so I can not comment on the "Back in my day" but I have been playing MMOs for years. In my experience VC should be in the game. Even though I plan to spend most of my time in Discord but I think for pickups it would be very beneficial. IMO it has always be easier to explain strats, pulling methods, oh **** moments in VC. Even when I have been playing MMOs for the past twenty years I very rarely run into groups where I get so annoyed by what they are talking about that I can't stand it. Sometimes I hop in voice and the topic is unimportant or boring and most of the time I just turn them down and either keep talking in dicord, listening to music, or watching TV. I would love a feature in their VC system to where you can mute everyone with one click of a button. Simillar to Discrod where you can just mute all sounds. That way if I find the topic boring I can mute everyone but when I get into that "Oh **** moment" or need to listen to a strat I can just click one button and communicate and get done what I want to get done and then mute it again (compared to having to mute every person or leaving/joining).
In terms of raids I expect VC to be used. There may be a guild or two out there that is more causual and laid back and won't use it but I expect most will. Every guild that I have been in that raids, it is a requirement to be in VC. Its easier to communicate and give instructions. I've never been in a guild where it is required to talk but you need to atleast listen. Heck I have even been in raids where you just need to listen to boss names or complicated parts. Some people mute VC during raids and just listen to strats or call outs.
VC is a modern tool and Pantheon is all about bringing back the old style of MMO gameplay with updated and modern tools.
Many people since the 90s have been using some form of voice chat system. It was designed to hook you up and play games together with. Today we use TS, Vent, Discord all the time. Now i see games putting their own versions in to compensate for costs to others, plus an easy to use function close by. Id rather we use outside programs then the devs spending any time at it in game. However close proximity chat is important if trying to relay info to, and fast enough. Otherwise Txt chat is fine in this MMO and let us use outside chat.
Being social is actually great to meet new people, that later you can be friend after years playing with. If your anti social or afraid of technoligy then by all means the txt chat is much better for you. Plus some of these voice chat systems you can mute your mic btw, and listen in only.
Remove the 12 year old squeekers and your laughing.
Celandor said:I don't think you can release a game today without acknowledging voice chat.
You probably can't find a major guild who isn't using it to socialize and to run raids.
I personally don't see the need for it at the group level and agree that it's completely immersion-breaking. I don't need to know that Elanil the hot female rogue is actually a trucker named Ralph from DesMoine and that his bong needs refilling.
Things I don't want to hear in voice chat but we've all heard repeatedly:
* Whatever it is that you're eating - chew with your mouse closed and use PTT
* Your water pipe or any discussion of your addiction to anything but Pantheon
* Your opinions on the US President or any other RL political issue
* Your medications, psychosis or any other fascinating aspects of your treatment program
* Whatever you're watching on Netflix or listening to on iTunes.
* Your kids screaming that they haven't been fed since Wednesday and they can't find the baby
* Anyone who can't put two sentences together without constant profanityIf we can accept that we only need voice chat for raiding, then voice chat should be something that's handled through the major VOIP services like Discord or Mumble and not something that the devs feel has to be integrated into the Pantheon client.
I don't want to be forced into voice chat either. The Role Play element is largely killed by voice chat, except in very rare cases. The isolation of no one else using text chat means you're not getting instructions from the group leader or providing input to group decisions and you've lost the Massively Multiplayer community aspect. You started off with an MMORPG and it's been reduced to simply an OG by killing off the RP and MM.
Built-in voice chat puts me between a rock and a hard place. It's the one aspect of Pantheon that I'm least looking forward to. If I want to preserve the immersive quality of the game, it largely forces me to solo and to be anti-social.
I think it's too much to expect that in general pickup groups on most servers that the players are going to behave any differently in voice chat than if they were playing Call of Duty. On the other hand, perhaps on dedicated RP servers, maybe we could expect certain decorum to be followed by everyone in voice chat. Maybe we need a shorthand for groups who are discouraging free-for-all open chat. If the community could come up with some sort of definition/model of acceptable voice chat behaviour for immersive grouping we'd have some sort of convention in place. We'd be a step closer to redefining "anti-social behaviour" to mean unwanted public behaviour rather than making loners out of players.
Maybe I'm just too old school and I'm out of touch with modern gamers?
Just working through my first cup of coffee this morning and nearly had it shoot out of my nose so thanks for that this is the funniest thing I've read on here in quite some time.
In response to OP I think the most important thing to me is having the ability to squelch/mute others both with the flip of one option but also granularly down to each user. While this doesnt resolve the overall issue of feeling left out if others decide to VC at least it's not forced on you. I also don't think VC should work at all outside of groups/friends/guilds otherwise talk about breaking immersion. I hate playing games where at the start of the game everyone is on open Mic and you have to listen to their God awful music, their kids screaming in the background etc etc etc.
I hate voice chat. Not just because I find it ruins my personal brand of immersion (immersion being subjective), but because I often don't have time to play until late at night when other people are asleep, and need to stay quiet. I talk to people all day at work, and usually don't feel like doing the same at home - at least not to a bunch of random nerds I'll never group with/see again.
That said, it's going to happen. Whether it's internally set up by VR, or an external service like Vent, it will happen. That's one of those things that's simply gone too far over the years. There's no way to roll it back. And as long as the option is there (which it will be), the players will demand it be used. Only thing that can be done is create a guild, or join a guild, that looks for that "old school" feel and refuses to use Voice.
There are so many reasons for having or not having, but my main concern is if you *do* have it then what happens when you don't want to use it and other *are*?
Anyone have any ideas? Because I can see non-voice people simply being excluded (no one is going to type instructions for the guy not listening/talking).
I use voice for raiding, but when I am playing normally I have music on. I also dont wear a headset. I can see the use for groups as it will be easier then having people join discord or a mumble server. I generally like to type and not have to wear a headset and listen to other people voices. So I will prolly not be using the system. You must also consider latency as VOIP uses alot of bandwidth so the option to disable not only yourself but hearing others also needs to be implemented.
Also what about privacy, will VR record any conversations?
Will other players record your voice for whatever purpose (I do love soundboards)?
How will voice chat be moderated if at all?
Will the chat be distanced based or group-only?
Can you hear invisible people?
How can you mute someone if you don't know where or who the sound/music/mic noise is coming from if is distance based?
Will voice chat go thru walls?
Lot of things to thinks to think about.
Stevie said: I would like to see it built in, its up to you if you use it.
I agree with the basic gist of what you're saying, but this sentence has always irked me.
When it comes to things like Voice chat, it's not really that simple. It becomes a necessity, and by NOT using it you're effectively hamstringing your potential progress.
I can change my font in my chat logs to whatever the hell I want. That's my decision, and it wouldn't effect my gameplay. Nobody is going to say, "Hey, if you're using purple font for group chat, you can't join our group."
They will say, "Voice chat is a must. If you don't use voice chat, you can't join our group".
That's not really a choice.
Zeem said:I use voice for raiding, but when I am playing normally I have music on. I also dont wear a headset. I can see the use for groups as it will be easier then having people join discord or a mumble server. I generally like to type and not have to wear a headset and listen to other people voices. So I will prolly not be using the system. You must also consider latency as VOIP uses alot of bandwidth so the option to disable not only yourself but hearing others also needs to be implemented.
Also what about privacy, will VR record any conversations?
Will other players record your voice for whatever purpose (I do love soundboards)?
How will voice chat be moderated if at all?
Will the chat be distanced based or group-only?
Can you hear invisible people?
How can you mute someone if you don't know where or who the sound/music/mic noise is coming from if is distance based?
Will voice chat go thru walls?
Lot of things to thinks to think about.
I enjoyed EQ2’s built in chat. You could simply turn it off or have it automatically on when you join a group or raid. You could create custom channels and even password protected channels. As far as I know, it was not recorded, but I don’t put anyth8ng past DBG. You could mute anyone you wanted, even permanently.
I'd say the the best option for people that prefer not to use voice, is to find a guild that also has the same desire - like the guild I joined. I'm sure I'll be grouping with non-guildies as well, but at least we have a core group of people that prefer text chat, that I'll be gaming with intimately for years to come hopefully. We have agreed to use voice on large functions like a raid, but that's it.
disposalist said:There are so many reasons for having or not having, but my main concern is if you *do* have it then what happens when you don't want to use it and other *are*?
Anyone have any ideas? Because I can see non-voice people simply being excluded (no one is going to type instructions for the guy not listening/talking).
The solution for this could be as simple as politely leaving the group to look for another with your play style. But different scenarios could prevent that from being so simple... maybe you're playing a common class that has a harder time to find a group. Or maybe you finally got in a group at a specific camp that you're trying to get an item drop from..... in some cases you'd probably have to bite the bullet and join voice just to advance your own goals. It's just something you're going to have to weigh the positives/negatives at that moment and decide. And I plan on taking this advice myself.
kreed99 said:I will listen to voice, but will never participate. So i need the chat options as well.
I have to say I do that sometimes. I think both tools are still viable, but I do think Voice is taking the lead with most guild and raid functions. I have used a slew of voice tools, but I do find them useful and it helps ratchet up the fun sometimes.
Ox
Agreed with @Tralyan again - guess we need to form a guild!
Anyway back on point - I look at voice chat the same as I look at different media types: Reading Books vs Audio Books Vs Movies. Outside of all the real life nonsense that is discussed via voice (which is discussed in type also so not a huge difference) its the pure escapism/immersion factor for me is ruined. When I hear the voice of The Grey-beared dwarf to be a 10 year old, then the “idea” I had developed in my mind is forever tainted. Similar to terrible audio book voice acting choices or terrible movie/tv casting choices versus the idea I had developed myself when I read a book.
So, for me personally, voice chat does ruin the a sigificant element of the game, but I don’t think the tool in and of itself does. I’ll play in a Guild with like-minded people most likely on a RP server that don’t use it. And I think others who dislike it will do the same.
Even if i were to be a guild leader, i would have raid leaders to do the voice stuff. I am ok being on the backend listening and doing data and admin stuff. I am just not vocal, and i like the option of deleting my sentence if it doesnt sound right. Just how i've learned to be.