disposalist said:Having said that, I'd really like a wardrobe tab where anything you've previously worn *can* be chosen to override a current 'worn' item. There's nothing I hate worse than getting something with awesome stats bu feeling it makes my character look stupid... But that's a little off-topic, sorry.
Kaen said:disposalist said:Having said that, I'd really like a wardrobe tab where anything you've previously worn *can* be chosen to override a current 'worn' item. There's nothing I hate worse than getting something with awesome stats bu feeling it makes my character look stupid... But that's a little off-topic, sorry.
I believe the other thread went the way of Old Yeller, so I'll quickly address this here. The reason I don't like the "previously worn" idea is people can then buy or borrow any gear and just sell it or hand it back to their guildmate/friend. People would just fill their appearance tabs with everything they could get their hands on, and at little or no cost.
I'd be happy with having to 'consume' the item (or perhaps changing it into a NODROP item) to keep it's appearance a wardrobe option, I suppose, but, once it is consumed, I think it should always be available (not tied to the item you want to change the appearance of).
It should also have to be wearable (and actually have been worn, if only briefly - this ensures the character meets the item requirements). No mages in plate or warriors in robes.
disposalist said:Kaen said:disposalist said:Having said that, I'd really like a wardrobe tab where anything you've previously worn *can* be chosen to override a current 'worn' item. There's nothing I hate worse than getting something with awesome stats bu feeling it makes my character look stupid... But that's a little off-topic, sorry.
I believe the other thread went the way of Old Yeller, so I'll quickly address this here. The reason I don't like the "previously worn" idea is people can then buy or borrow any gear and just sell it or hand it back to their guildmate/friend. People would just fill their appearance tabs with everything they could get their hands on, and at little or no cost.
I'd be happy with having to 'consume' the item (or perhaps changing it into a NODROP item) to keep it's appearance a wardrobe option, I suppose, but, once it is consumed, I think it should always be available (not tied to the item you want to change the appearance of).
It should also have to be wearable (and actually have been worn, if only briefly - this ensures the character meets the item requirements). No mages in plate or warriors in robes.
First off, I apologize for possibly "necro"-ing this thread. Been following the newsletters for this game for years but was nervous about dipping into the community, as I think my preferences toward QoL are a bit modern and I've heard there are quite a few viciously hyper-realism purists out there. xD
It's appropriate that my first post would be on costume systems, as aside from character creation and the general feel of combat, it is the most important aspect of an MMO to me.
I wanted to post that I agree wholeheartedly with disposalist in that I really hope we end up with a costume system that lets us override gear appearances. I have no rose-colored glasses for the days of clown armor or being forced into a particular aesthetic that I don't actually like because of stats. To give y'all an idea, I love costume systems like those found in LotRO, Rift, WildStar, WoW, and ESO. I love spending hours just creating outfits out of mix-and-matched gear appearances I've picked up over time, to give my characters their own unique looks. And if I can dye the stuff to further individualize it, that's even better. I know I've spent waaaaay too much time in the MMOs I currently play just going back to old content and farming up appearances I never got a chance to claim as my own. What's more, I have two driving motivators behind completing current content: experiencing fun boss encounters and collecting pretty armor/weapon appearances.
I'm hopeful that I will be able to do the same in Pantheon and that they aren't too afraid of costume systems.
Naunet said:It's appropriate that my first post would be on costume systems, as aside from character creation and the general feel of combat, it is the most important aspect of an MMO to me.
I wanted to post that I agree wholeheartedly with disposalist in that I really hope we end up with a costume system that lets us override gear appearances. I have no rose-colored glasses for the days of clown armor or being forced into a particular aesthetic that I don't actually like because of stats. To give y'all an idea, I love costume systems like those found in LotRO, Rift, WildStar, WoW, and ESO. I love spending hours just creating outfits out of mix-and-matched gear appearances I've picked up over time, to give my characters their own unique looks. And if I can dye the stuff to further individualize it, that's even better. I know I've spent waaaaay too much time in the MMOs I currently play just going back to old content and farming up appearances I never got a chance to claim as my own. What's more, I have two driving motivators behind completing current content: experiencing fun boss encounters and collecting pretty armor/weapon appearances.
I'm hopeful that I will be able to do the same in Pantheon and that they aren't too afraid of costume systems.
Kaen said:Naunet said:It's appropriate that my first post would be on costume systems, as aside from character creation and the general feel of combat, it is the most important aspect of an MMO to me.
I wanted to post that I agree wholeheartedly with disposalist in that I really hope we end up with a costume system that lets us override gear appearances. I have no rose-colored glasses for the days of clown armor or being forced into a particular aesthetic that I don't actually like because of stats. To give y'all an idea, I love costume systems like those found in LotRO, Rift, WildStar, WoW, and ESO. I love spending hours just creating outfits out of mix-and-matched gear appearances I've picked up over time, to give my characters their own unique looks. And if I can dye the stuff to further individualize it, that's even better. I know I've spent waaaaay too much time in the MMOs I currently play just going back to old content and farming up appearances I never got a chance to claim as my own. What's more, I have two driving motivators behind completing current content: experiencing fun boss encounters and collecting pretty armor/weapon appearances.
I'm hopeful that I will be able to do the same in Pantheon and that they aren't too afraid of costume systems.
I wouldn't say most people liked the cosmetics in EQ. I think most people would agree that it often looked like someone (typically melee) got smacked around by Picasso. But they enjoyed the recognizability of people's gear. A brief glance would in most cases give you could get a pretty good feel of how well a person was geared and what exactly they were wearing. In games like LotRO where any level 1 can just log in and buy a costume to wear for 40+ levels, you have no idea. Plus you see a bunch of clones running around. You could have two people standing next to each other who look the exact same and one could be level 3, and the other could be level 36. I really didn't like that. Hell, I wore the same costume for 40 levels in LotRO, and that's probably one of the more significant reasons I felt such little attachment to my character. Aesthetically there was no progression at all. It just felt... wrong.
Exactly this.
And not for nothing, but man am I getting tired of people filing every argument against them as a symptom of "rose-colored-glasses". I know it might be hard to admit there are other reasons for a person wanting a particular feature in a game other than "mah nostalgia" or "mah immersion", but let's all just try to imagine that we're not 100% right about everything, all the time.
Felt good to get that off my chest.
To OP.
Its sounds like you're proposing something similar to Warhammer Online's alternate appearance option where you could drop any armor into a given slot under a seperate tab to take on its appearance. As long as that was able to be worn by that class ( plate, leather, cloth )
It would only change the look and not the stats. This way you could find mob armor you thought looked cool and use its appearance even though it could just be trash low level armor. This was later adopted by Blizzard in the form of Transmog.
Kaen said:I wouldn't say most people liked the cosmetics in EQ. I think most people would agree that it often looked like someone (typically melee) got smacked around by Picasso. But they enjoyed the recognizability of people's gear. A brief glance would in most cases give you could get a pretty good feel of how well a person was geared and what exactly they were wearing. In games like LotRO where any level 1 can just log in and buy a costume to wear for 40+ levels, you have no idea. Plus you see a bunch of clones running around. You could have two people standing next to each other who look the exact same and one could be level 3, and the other could be level 36. I really didn't like that. Hell, I wore the same costume for 40 levels in LotRO, and that's probably one of the more significant reasons I felt such little attachment to my character. Aesthetically there was no progression at all. It just felt... wrong.
I feel like clone-syndrome is way more apparent in games where you don't have a robust costume system. Prior to transmog in WoW, every warrior looked like every other warrior (or whatever class). In Rift or WildStar or whathaveyou, I don't think I've ever seen a clone of another player's outfit, unless it was a deliberate copy. That's because those games let you mix and match appearances and have pretty much restriction-less costume systems.
I'm not bothered at all by a level 3 looking like a level 36. I just enjoy being able to customize my own character's outfits as I wish. The extent that I care about what other players do with their characters is purely enjoyment out of seeing cool outfits that people have put together.
I think my must-haves would be...
- A way to learn appearances so that I don't have to hold onto the physical item.
- A way to save multiple outfits that I can swap between
Personally I prefer minimal restrictions (my ideal would be not restricted by armor type or level), as I find it lends to more creativity when it comes to creating outfits. For those who are super into just seeing straight-up what people wear, VR could include a client-side toggle to either show or hide costumes on players. Or they could handle it like Trion does in Rift (and possibly other MMOs? Not sure), where when you inspect someone, you see a tab with their actual gear/appearance and a tab with their costume gear/appearance.
Me personally I'm against cosmetic gear, if I can get a cosmetic piece of gear and it even resembles a high end piece of gear but yet that person be lvl 3 than I would be upset of I were the lvl 36 and actually had to work at and camp and conquered that content probably multiple times to get the item, and you simply just bought something to simply "look cool?" Not cool man I'm sorry, you want your character to look cool? Earn it simple as that, and the devs have alrdy said that there will be multiple variety of items that are close in comparison in stats and such, but I'm sure cosmetically they will appear differ so having a bunch of people looking around looking the same shouldn't be too much of a problem, I just believe a lvl 1 or 3 or 10 lvl character should look pretty ragged, mismatch clothes, not matching colors, look like they are just starting their adventure with what they have on their backs and people wishing them luck, becuase guess what.......you are lol imagine that. Now at high levels you've grown a renown, gained a rep, people know who you are, been in amazing groups, killed dangerous, and nefarious monsters, and acquired awesome gear, those are the ones that the low level players should be looking at and say " Hey I want to be THAT GUY." Not looking at a lvl 3 and say I want to buy that cosmetic gear.
I like cosmetic gear. Makes me feel more unique as time goes on. I do agree it shouldn't overlap with gear, but I am cool with cosmetic gear that replaces your battle gear...just doesn't have stats. In EQ seeing everyone with GEBS back in classic is fun and all, but everyone with golden booties kills immersion for me. So I am torn tbh. Do I want to see every high end class with the same looking gear...no. Cosmetics make it to where you can add some unique aspect to your character, but their needs to be a lot of them. I am also cool with different looking pieces of gear having the same stats. Maybe that is a way to bypass all the hate for cosmetic gear. If you want a blue chestplate that has the exact same stats as a red chest plate..don't see any harm in that. So it isn't technically hiding your gear if their are like 5 different styles of helments that have the exact same stats..just look different.
Riahuf22 said:those are the ones that the low level players should be looking at and say " Hey I want to be THAT GUY." Not looking at a lvl 3 and say I want to buy that cosmetic gear.
See the thing is... everyone has their own preferred aesthetic. Not everyone aspires to Super Raid Gear XYZ aesthetic, and many like only one piece of it but desire the creative freedom to design their own outfit. Level restrictions on costuming is a decent compromise to take care of your issue, I think. This allows people to look the way they want, but not beyond the means of their level.
Watemper said:If you want a blue chestplate that has the exact same stats as a red chest plate..don't see any harm in that. So it isn't technically hiding your gear if their are like 5 different styles of helments that have the exact same stats..just look different.
This creates a problem on the development side, as you end up with having to figure out ways to a) fit all that gear in the game (how is it obtained? if a drop, how to avoid bloating loot tables with recolors?) and b) store all that data. Not to mention, how do you choose which colors?
A robust costume system (where you unlock appearances in its own UI) with dye capabilities is more streamlined in terms of data storage and avoids both the bloated loot table problem and the, "Oh, it's just that model again but a different color" complaint.
Riahuf22 said:those are the ones that the low level players should be looking at and say " Hey I want to be THAT GUY." Not looking at a lvl 3 and say I want to buy that cosmetic gear.
Nailed it. Gear tells a story, it tells a player's power, and it gives people something to strive for.
Naunet said:Riahuf22 said:those are the ones that the low level players should be looking at and say " Hey I want to be THAT GUY." Not looking at a lvl 3 and say I want to buy that cosmetic gear.See the thing is... everyone has their own preferred aesthetic. Not everyone aspires to Super Raid Gear XYZ aesthetic, and many like only one piece of it but desire the creative freedom to design their own outfit. Level restrictions on costuming is a decent compromise to take care of your issue, I think. This allows people to look the way they want, but not beyond the means of their level.
Ever hear of "fashionquest"? It was amazing how certain items that were not in any way powerful had their values skyrocket because of their appearance. That is some cool arse ermegent gameplay.
Keno Monster said:Ever hear of "fashionquest"? It was amazing how certain items that were not in any way powerful had their values skyrocket because of their appearance. That is some cool arse ermegent gameplay.
Heh, I think every MMO with a costume system has that kind of phrase. "Transmog/Costumes/Glamour/Holo-wardrobe/etc is the real end game." Farming for pieces purely for cosmetic value is a HUGE draw for a very large playerbase, that's for sure. One only has to look at how popular old raid farming is in WoW to understand that.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:Ever hear of "fashionquest"? It was amazing how certain items that were not in any way powerful had their values skyrocket because of their appearance. That is some cool arse ermegent gameplay.Heh, I think every MMO with a costume system has that kind of phrase. "Transmog/Costumes/Glamour/Holo-wardrobe/etc is the real end game." Farming for pieces purely for cosmetic value is a HUGE draw for a very large playerbase, that's for sure. One only has to look at how popular old raid farming is in WoW to understand that.
But "in EQ" there was no costume system(when I played, can't speak to now). People would seek out items solely based on their appearance. They didn't dye or transmog.
Imagine the only purple breastplate in the game. It happens to be the best BP that can be worn from levels ~10-20. Not only does it have high value to the players in the level range, because, you know, it's great for combat, but it also has value for a level 105 Warrior who just freaking wants a purple breastplate and wouldn't dream of wearing it in combat. That's awesome! It creates a market for the level 20 player who just upgraded to something else. It gives the 105 something else to want. That's good cross cutting synergy.
Keno Monster said:Imagine the only purple breastplate in the game. It happens to be the best BP that can be worn from levels ~10-20. Not only does it have high value to the players in the level range, because, you know, it's great for combat, but it also has value for a level 105 Warrior who just freaking wants a purple breastplate and wouldn't dream of wearing it in combat. That's awesome! It creates a market for the level 20 player who just upgraded to something else. It gives the 105 something else to want. That's good cross cutting synergy.
Additionally, and maybe I'm the only one here, but do you folks out there actually even noticed what other people wear anymore? I know I don't. I don't stop and look at a persons perfectly collected wardrobe that he or she spent hours getting together. When I see that dude in LoTRO or Aion or WoW run by in the matching gold and black armor, I don't stop, inspect and ask where he got it from, because I don't care. Because it has no stats, it has no substance to it and it's not who that character is.
But see the dude run by in the mismatched mess with his blue breastplate and shiny helmet, running around looking like a goofy a$$ smurf? You bet I stop and pay attention, because while he may not match, that is one neat looking helmet and I want to know which dungeon he delved to find it. Or when I see that guy run by in rare Truesilver mail from Kaesora, I know he spent some plat on it, or spent a lot of time farming some spiders for that matching set. Or Paineel steel, for that matter.
I got a feeling I'm not the only one that does this, and if I'm right, and the whole point of people wanting a wardrobe/cosmetic function is so others will take note ....then doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose when people aren't noticing?
And if you don't care about how other people see your toon, or if they stop and stare or not, then that means everyone should be ok with me being able to toggle your wardrobe off, right?
Keno Monster said:But "in EQ" there was no costume system(when I played, can't speak to now). People would seek out items solely based on their appearance. They didn't dye or transmog.
Costumes and dye systems were the natural progression of that urge to "seek out items solely based on their appearance". Not bothering with a good costume system to me feels like trying to publish a book without any proof-reading or rewrites, much less effort in proper formatting or marketing. Probably unagented, too (heh, good luck).
Tralyan said:And if you don't care about how other people see your toon, or if they stop and stare or not, then that means everyone should be ok with me being able to toggle your wardrobe off, right?
I don't think most people would be against a client-side toggle, and it's a perfectly appropriate compromise to include in a wardrobe system.
For what it's worth, I absolutely DO spend time inspecting people in other MMOs and analyzing the various bits of armor they've put together to create their unique personal style. And if I like something enough, I whisper them to ask what it is or where it came from. And I know I'm not alone. There are entire websites dedicated to this!
I'm all for finding various armor styles and if you like the way it looks then fine, let the player use it or swap out the appearance of their armor with it.
The aesthetic of too many games have been ruined by letting players decide the aesthetics. Most people aren't artists so don't do that. Things like bunny suits, bikini armor, santa hats, and other ridiculous garbage like that should be reserved for other games, but do not have to be in every game. Its funny for about two seconds to see a player named Humpy Bubblelips, who thinks he's in Second Life, running around you in the town square wearing only his tu tu and a hippo head. -.-.... but that gets old real quick.
Hope this game doesn't go that far with costumes.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:But "in EQ" there was no costume system(when I played, can't speak to now). People would seek out items solely based on their appearance. They didn't dye or transmog.Costumes and dye systems were the natural progression of that urge to "seek out items solely based on their appearance". Not bothering with a good costume system to me feels like trying to publish a book without any proof-reading or rewrites, much less effort in proper formatting or marketing. Probably unagented, too (heh, good luck).
Tralyan said:And if you don't care about how other people see your toon, or if they stop and stare or not, then that means everyone should be ok with me being able to toggle your wardrobe off, right?I don't think most people would be against a client-side toggle, and it's a perfectly appropriate compromise to include in a wardrobe system.
For what it's worth, I absolutely DO spend time inspecting people in other MMOs and analyzing the various bits of armor they've put together to create their unique personal style. And if I like something enough, I whisper them to ask what it is or where it came from. And I know I'm not alone. There are entire websites dedicated to this!
Toggle is absolute garbage. People should see the same thing.
Bronsun said:The aesthetic of too many games have been ruined by letting players decide the aesthetics. Most people aren't artists so don't do that. Things like bunny suits, bikini armor, santa hats, and other ridiculous garbage like that should be reserved for other games, but do not have to be in every game.
That's really the devs' fault for including options like that in the first place. A costume system does not automatically mean immersion-breaking cosmetics like bunny ears or whatever else. I agree that I wouldn't like to see things in this game that don't fit the world! But that doesn't mean a costume system has no place in it.
Personally, I find that most people are pretty good at putting together coherent looks when they're given the right tools.
Naunet said:Bronsun said:The aesthetic of too many games have been ruined by letting players decide the aesthetics. Most people aren't artists so don't do that. Things like bunny suits, bikini armor, santa hats, and other ridiculous garbage like that should be reserved for other games, but do not have to be in every game.That's really the devs' fault for including options like that in the first place. A costume system does not automatically mean immersion-breaking cosmetics like bunny ears or whatever else. I agree that I wouldn't like to see things in this game that don't fit the world! But that doesn't mean a costume system has no place in it.
Personally, I find that most people are pretty good at putting together coherent looks when they're given the right tools.
Exactly. What I want is simply to occasionally avoid the often over the top look of a 'powerful' item and override with a more subtle look that I used to wear, even if it costs me to do it, my look being how I like it is important.
I don't want bunny ears. I don't want any kind of cosmetic only items really (though the OP idea of medals and whatever might be nice if they are subtle).
But whether you're talking about the idea of medals and insignias or about wardrobe override looks, if there's a switch so people can see 'real' look the whole thing is pointless.
I feel pretty strongly that an appearance tab similar to what EQ2 used is great for the game. If I spend the time to farm up a set of rubicite armor, I would like the option to display that set of armor whenever I feel like it. The biggest issue that I have seen in the past is that you run into plenty of situations where it simply makes sense to wear a mismatched set of armor because of the better stats and there aren't many opportunities to display the full sets outside of standing in town where stats don't really matter. I am not a fan of the toggle because it's really immersion breaking. If someone yells "Everybody run to the big red ogre!" we should all see the same thing. Because of the toggle, it's entirely possible that some players go to the guy wearing rubicite in the appearance tab and others go to the guy wearing other red armor in the standard tab.
The whole point of the appearance tab is to allow a player to control their "appearance" -- that premise is defeated when you allow others to /toggle it on/off. The toggle option is a decent compromise but I feel it should be in the hands of the player choosing whether or not they want to toggle their own appearance slot on/off. All it takes is a couple bad apples wearing bright yellow banana looking gear to encourage others to /toggle appearance gear off for everybody. The worst part is that those same players can simply put that same yellow gear in the standard tab and force people to see it anyway. The toggle priority is backwards as far as I am concerned.