Perhaps more vertical than horizontal :P Whoops.
Originally, I proposed something like this to go along with the Progeny system, but I think maybe we can see something like this for people who achieve max level so that there's another thing to work towards as far as XP.
This system would be very much like DAoC's RA system, which I believe is one of the best progression systems I've come across. Because of the effectiveness of this system, they never extended the level cap. Although DAoC was largely a PvP-centric game, I believe the system used there could be applied (in its own unique way, of course) here.
Before continuing: This is not EQ's AA system. Similar, but different. Also, I'm suggesting a max on points and "levels". This would not be a system that would continue to progress for years and years, which would create imbalances, especially when paired with level-cap extensions.
How it works:
Essentially, players who achieve max level may begin channeling experience towards "Grandmaster" levels. Killing mobs will no longer gain normal XP; instead the XP from killing mobs will go towards these Grandmaster levels. However, when you die you still lose normal level XP. Place a toggle in towns to avoid exploits. People can toggle back and forth. Feel safe? Toggle to GM XP and get to work. Died a few times and close to losing your level? Toggle back to normal leveling to get back that XP buffer.
For each GM level (out of, say, 10?) you get a number of points to spend however you wish. Say, 5 Ability Points per level, so 50 in all.
- AB - "Ability Points"
- If you de-level, all the Ability Points you've spent (aka your abilities) become inactive until you re-ding, at which time all your AP return to normal as if you had never de-leveled.
- Many of these "abilities" will be passive augmentations, but any "Active" abilities will be placed on a floating hotbar separate from your normal hotbar.
Abilities
Most of these will be passive, permanent additions to your character. You can buy these abilities by spending the points you earn each level. Each category may have several degrees, meaning you can put points into it several times. For example, some abilities (passive or active) may require 5 points initially, then an additional 5 to make it better (increase effectiveness, reduce cooldown, whatever...). Some abilities may require 1 point for the first "purchase", then 2 points for the next, then 3, etc...
(This is just a general list I threw together, much of which is shared with DAoC's system. A system more unique to Pantheon would be ideal, but we'll use this as an example for now.)
Increase Strength
Increase Stam/Con
Increase Dexterity
Increase Agility
Increase Intelligence
Increase Wisdom
Increase AC
Reduce Falling Damage
Increase Magic Resistance
Increase Physical Resistance
Increase Environmental Resistance
Increase Maximum Mana
Increase Maximum Hit Points
Increase Mana Regeneration
Increase Hit Point Regeneration
Increase Melee Crit Chance
Increase Spell Crit Chance
Increase Melee Damage
Increase Magic Damage
Increase Healing Done
Increase Block Chance
Increase Parry Chance
Increase Dodge Chance
Imcrease Melee Speed
Increase Casting Speed
Increase Spell Duration
Decrease Chance to be Resisted
Instant HP Restoration (Out of Combat)
Instant Mana Restoration (Out of Combat)
Lower Timers (Different per class, like Lower Mend or FD cooldown for Monk)
Chance to not use mana when casting
Increase Chance to Double Attack
Increase Chance to hit with Off-Hand
Reduce Duration of Negative Effects
Remove Negative Effects
Then each class has their own abilities that can be purchased that are unique to that class. An important note here is that many of these abilities will have fairly long cooldowns, ranging from 5 or 10 minutes to 30 minutes - 1hour or more. Depends on how powerful the abilities are. Just some examples:
Cleric
- Instant Single-target Heal.
- Incoming Damage is reduced by 75% for 10 seconds.
Bard
- Increase Mana/HP regen for group for 15 seconds.
- Group's Melee speed increased by 25% for 15 seconds.
Paladin
- Paladin's block chance increased by 60% for 12 seconds.
- Being struck heals he Paladin for X hp per hit for 10 seconds (with maybe a max to cap).
Dire Lord
- Attacks leach HP from percentage of damage dealt for 15 seconds.
- Increase Melee speed of pet by 5% (Passive abilitiy, 25% max)
- Increase pet damage by 5% (Passive ability, 25% max)
Druid
- Instant Group Heal
- Instant Group Mana restoration (for, say 20% restored)
Enchanter
- Increase Duration of Charm
- Instant cast AoE stun
Monk
- Increase chance to triple attack by 2% (passive, 10% maximum)
- Reduce cooldown of Feign Death
Ranger
- Increase chance to find Cleric for Rez by 10%
- Increase Attack speed by 45% for 10 seconds.
- Attacks have a chance to reduce target's attack speed (Passive)
Rogue
- Increase Damage done by Backstab by 5% (passive, up to 25% max)
- Backstab has a chance to stun target (passive)
- Attacks have a chance to increase Rogue's attack speed for 6 seconds (passive)
Shaman
- Increase effectieness of Cannibalize
- Instant Group Heal-over-Time
- Instang Single-target HoT
Summoner
- Increase Max Pet Health by 5% (Passive, up to 25% max)
- Increase pet damage by 5% (Passive, up to 25% max)
- Increase Pet's chance to double attack
- Increase Pet's chance to attack with off-hand
Warrior
- Increase AC for 15 seconds
- Reduce incoming damage by 40% for 8 seconds
Wizard
- Replenish Mana (in combat) (25% replenish, usuable every 5 minutes)
- Become invulnerable for 8 seconds. Cannot cast during this time.
There would be a great variety of choices, much greater than what I've laid out here, so people can kind of customize things according to their play style. And because of the varying costs of things, not everyone would be able to get every ability for their character unless more GM levels were achieveable (making more poitns available).
I absolutely loved this sort of system in DAoC, and I think it would add a lot of flavor to progression in Pantheon, while also keeping people from being overly thirsty for new content and additional levels (level cap extensions) until later.
Just thought I would post it here to get people's thoughts!
Suterian said:So, AAs in EQ?
Kaen said:Suterian said:So, AAs in EQ?
No idea what that is :P I played EQ up to Velious.
Edit: Looked it up. Looks like EQ AA was a simliar system, but I never experienced it, so I can't speak as to whether or not it was done well. =\
What you described here is basically the AA system in EQ, although in EQ you didn't have to be max level to start working on AAs. Some of them required you to be a certain level and so you couldn't put any points toward that specific AA unless you met the prerequisites, which could be a certain level or even another AA. There were also active AA abilities, like the Enchanter Dire Charm or Rune, Warriors got AoE taunts, things like that. Other passives would lower the cooldowns on innate abilities like the Paladin LoH too.
I'm sure Pantheon will have AAs at some point, but what I'd like to see for horizontal progression is a limited number of AAs. In EQ you could just infinitely grind AAs until you had them all and it got to the point where they came up with glyphs, which were expendable AAs so you technicially couldn't cap out. I think limiting the number of AAs will make you think about where you allocate the points depending on the situation. For example if you know you're going to main tank you can go for all AC/HP and mitigation AAs, but if you're going to offtank you can afford to put some more toward damage modifiers. I also think you should then have the ability to respec, for a price of course, but not such a price that is unreachable by casual players.
I just wanted to chime in and mention that de-leveling has been ruled out for Pantheon. Personally, I prefer the idea of maintaining an XP buffer which was the case for players in FFXI due to the potential for de-leveling. I'm not sure what the plan is for the death penalty at max level but I really do hope that something is added to the mix. Also, I am a huge fan of AA systems. It's highly unlikely that we will see them at launch but I wouldn't be surprised if they were in, at some capacity, by the first expansion.
uneko said:Kaen said:Suterian said:So, AAs in EQ?
No idea what that is :P I played EQ up to Velious.
Edit: Looked it up. Looks like EQ AA was a simliar system, but I never experienced it, so I can't speak as to whether or not it was done well. =\I think limiting the number of AAs will make you think about where you allocate the points depending on the situation. For example if you know you're going to main tank you can go for all AC/HP and mitigation AAs, but if you're going to offtank you can afford to put some more toward damage modifiers. I also think you should then have the ability to respec, for a price of course, but not such a price that is unreachable by casual players.
oneADseven said:I just wanted to chime in and mention that de-leveling has been ruled out for Pantheon. Personally, I prefer the idea of maintaining an XP buffer which was the case for players in FFXI due to the potential for de-leveling. I'm not sure what the plan is for the death penalty at max level but I really do hope that something is added to the mix. Also, I am a huge fan of AA systems. It's highly unlikely that we will see them at launch but I wouldn't be surprised if they were in, at some capacity, by the first expansion.
The issue with many forms of horizontal progression is that minute power increases can, eventually, end up being not enough of a motivating factor. There has to be enough of a perceived power increase over the long run to incentivize players to continue to play. On their own AA type abilities, or other minor advancements, are often times only enough to keep players playing temporarily.
I really enjoyed the CM feature from EQOA. (Class Mastery) -- it served the same purpose as AA's. From what I can remember, there were 1,500 total points you could earn and they became increasingly more difficult to unlock the more you attained. In EQOA, you could actually use the CM feature as a way to specialize your character. If you were an Ogre Warrior you had your choice of specializing as an Ogre racial class (Juggernaut) OR the tank archetype class (Soldier) OR one of two warrior specific sub-classes (Defender/Hero) -- it opened up some really cool flavor options without straying away from your class identity. The only exception to the rule was the racial master classes. It would make sense for an Ogre Warrior to become a Juggernaut, but maybe not an Ogre Necromancer. Either way, it was an option if someone really wanted to become a more tanky necromancer with reduced intelligence. Here are a couple links:
http://eqoa-forever.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Class
http://eqoa-forever.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_General_Masteries
bigdogchris said:"Alternative Advancement" should not be alternative, it should just be advancement. ie that type of advancement just be part of the normal game and not something that is added on later, unbalancing all previous content.
I agree with Bigdogchris here that it should be a normal part of the game and leveling. Not alternative and disruptive or unbalancing to all previous content.
I would have to agree with the above as well. I think a lot of players would appreciate having as advanced an advancement system as possible but also understand the additional legwork that goes into it might not be feasible until a later date. In the meantime, I actually do believe that Pantheon aims to offer similar benefits to AA-like systems but do so in a way that is aligned with it being more of "traditional" advancement than "alternative advancement." Situational gear, perception, rare spells and abilities, colored mana, the living codex, rites of passage, progeny, acclimation, etc, all seem to be "advanced" in the traditional sense, based on prior MMO titles. That said, maybe Pantheon is aiming to be more traditionally advanced? My personal preference is to have as much horizontal progression opportunity as possible, and to only increase the level-cap on expansions sparingly.
That said, let's say that a form of alternative advancement is implemented into the first expansion without raising the level cap. I imagine this would indeed disrupt the balance of all previous content because if it was designed to be challenging without that alternative advancement, players would be able to grow in power and thus overcome, at least a portion, of that intended challenge. This could lead to the content needing to be re-balanced which ultimately requires more time being spent on balancing existing content than actually creating new content. In a perfect world, Pantheon would launch with AA in tact. Maybe all of the horizontal progression opportunities that are planned could be considered just that. It's tough to say. According to the FAQ, AA is being considered for post-launch. It's possible this could be implemented prior to an actual expansion and that existing content could be balanced around that goal. Again ... tough to say. It's all really tricky business.
I agree with people's concerns; I wouldn't want to see current content trivialized. For that reason I would want there to be a cap on Ability Points, and make them limited enough that significant imbalances wouldn't be created. I would also want the acquisition of Ability Points to be relatively slow, almost like leveling from 50-60, so it's not something that's just handed out. People would have to work really hard for it.
Also, one of the only other alternatives to this sort of system that I've seen is raising the level cap, which trivializes previous content anyways. That's why I quit WoW. The first level extension ruined the game for me. All the raiding and such I'd gone through, all the time it took to acquire my gear... meaningless. I was now in the exact same boat as someone who had played the game for a few weeks and had just hit level 60. Hell, it wasn't long before most players didn't even know what MC and BWL were... IMO a system like this is much more friendly to keeping current content/gear relevant than raising the level cap.
philo said:The issue with many forms of horizontal progression is that minute power increases can, eventually, end up being not enough of a motivating factor. There has to be enough of a perceived power increase over the long run to incentivize players to continue to play. On their own AA type abilities, or other minor advancements, are often times only enough to keep players playing temporarily.
Your assessment of DAoC is questionable. How many more players could it have had?...for how much longer of a time period on an individual basis?
That issue with horizontal progression isnt just about leveling. Horizontal progression comes in many forms. Loot acquisition is another common form of horizontal progression (that we know Pantheon will utilize). Once again, its always fine in moderation but hopefully it isn't over emphasized. The results are always the same with all forms of horizontal progression. There has to be an "acceptable" amount of power increase over the long run to keep players playing. Of course there is a demographic who doesnt care much about improving their character, who is fine with non noticeable upgrades...but that is not the norm. I'm pretty sure horizontal progression has been discussed multiple times on this forum and I know this type of thing has been brought up before. It is the standard problem you run into with horizontal progression in any game.
To clarify, horizontal progression has benefits. Limiting power creep is one of the main ones. (I feel like maybe I am stating the obvious, unsure?) It is a fine line. There is a gray area of balance that developers have to walk to not over do it so that it becomes unacceptable to some players...and because different people have different tolerance levels of how long they are willing to stick around with limited upgrades or sidegrades, it is always a case by case basis. I'm glad I'm not the one having to try to balance horizontal progression.
Sometimes I think it might be easier to just avoid it. Power creep is inevitable anyway. There are other ways power creep can be dealt with besides horizontal progression.
Here is a post from Brad where he mentions horizontal progression. It is pretty general. Like I mentioned, the topic of horizontal progression is a very broad topic that is being discussed very specifically in this thread. Horizontal progression is just a small piece of the puzzle that can be utilized. Everything in moderation. Balance is the key.
Aradune said:Our plan is to launch a solid game, a PvE focused, cooperative, community based MMO. That will be our focus, although we will also have a crafting system and some other cool systems (see the 'Pantheon Difference'). Create a foundation that works, and build upon it some new ideas and some new approaches to some old ideas that haven't been taken where they could have or should have gone in past efforts.
One of the great things about MMOs, assuming you design them to last months and years, is that you can always build upon the game, adding new systems, classes, mechanics, etc.
The most important thing is to make sure you have a solid and fun PvE foundation. We also have said we don't want to just create a modern emulator of an old school MMO. If you look at the FAQ and the 'Pantheon Difference' you'll see the newer and more advanced systems and ideas we want to build upon this solid foundation by launch.
The current plan is to deliver on what has been described on the web page by launch. We also are planning and designing around systems and content that will last. We plan on sticking with Pantheon for a very long time. We're definitely in this for the long haul -- launch will provide a fantastic and compelling game, but it's also a starting point in one sense. That starting point, like I've said, is a solid foundation build around PvE, traditional cooperative and social systems, and then the newer and more advanced systems described in 'The Pantheon Difference'.
We're confident that we can launch this game as described and that it will be a compelling and rewarding experience. But with launch being also just a starting point, we're designing systems that are meant to be expanded. The typical 'expansion' is more areas to explore, an increased level cap, and new and exciting (and often more powerful) items and abilities.
But we want to do more than that post-launch. We also want to add some uniquely playing classes like the Bard. We want to have alternate ruleset servers, like PvP and RP servers. Then we want to take the game even further, some of which we've hinted at on the web page and in interviews and such. Something like Diplomacy, while I am *not* announcing or promising such a system this early on, would be another way to advance your character and contend with the environment that we could add post-launch, building upon our solid foundation. Building houses in a non-instanced environment is another. More complex means of travel, like owning your own persistent ship might be another. Evolving vehicles (horses, ships, etc.) beyond transportation and allowing them to engage in combat would be another. Harnessing user-generated content yet another.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense. It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place. But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally. I wasn't able to fully realize this long term potential of MMOs with EQ and Vanguard, but with Pantheon I definitely intend to. We want to keep the company small and focused, perhaps explore the idea of another game, but NOT to create another SoE where we have lots of different games in development. We'd rather have fewer games, a smaller more focused company, not sell out the company and stick by our games for many years. There are so many ideas we have for MMOs, but you just can't get all of those ideas into an MMO by launch. It's a process that should take years, keeping us busy and happy, and hopefully keeping all of the players excited as well -- create more than a game but an actual home -- having a blast with the game at launch, but also looking forward to what Pantheon could become months, years, and even a decade down the road. I look at EQ and how long it's been online and am very proud and encouraged. But with EQ, it didn't really expand that much horizontally -- the focus was on new zones, new mobs, higher level caps, new AAs, etc. Very vertical. So while I'm proud that EQ has lasted so long, I won't be satisfied again with an MMO that just expands vertically.
People often talk about Sandbox vs. Themepark. The way I look at the grand vision behind Pantheon is that it's a Sandbox that starts with some Themeparks within that Sandbox. But instead of just adding to the themeparks, I'd like to see the game evolve where there are more and more Themeparks within this ever expanding Sandbox. That's what I mean when I talk about horizontal expansion, where an MMO offers more and more things for its players to do, perhaps some very different advancement paths that all co-exist within the greater Sandbox.
I also don't think sequels make much sense in terms of where I'd like to see MMOs go. Content must be preserved -- developers cannot just start over every so many years, re-creating an MMO from scratch, building the foundation again, the core gameplay and mechanics, and all of the content (mobs, quests, lore, regions, etc.) again. Instead I think at some point you 'fork' the game, leaving behind, say, Pantheon 1.0 for people who are happy with the game just growing vertically. And then instead of a sequel, the game forks into Pantheon 2.0, retains and preserves the content and mechanics from before, but then pushes out horizontally, adding new ways to advance and grow your character, providing new experiences, new challenges, etc. They key is you don't start over -- you preserve the past and then keep building and adding.
One of the challenges, of course, is that technology continues to advance, and a game designed to last the long haul will have to get some makeovers and facelifts along the way. New technology, say graphics, has to be integrated into the game periodically lest it start looking dated or limited. So integrating newer technology while preserving content would be the goal, essentially continuing to evolve a game for years, and perhaps even decades. Easier said than done, of course, and there will certainly be hurdles to jump over and challenges to overcome. But it can be done, and it needs to be done.
In summary, while it's too early to commit to the specifics of our post-launch plans, the answer to the OPs question is a general yes -- adding new classes that work very differently than previous classes (like a Bard) is indeed part of the Grand Vision. Adding new advancement paths (perhaps something like Diplomacy) is also part of the Grand Vision. Taking both PvE and PvP a lot farther than most games have is as well. Housing, ships, user generated content, controlling regions (conquest, etc.), integrating some RTS elements into MMOs... I could go on and on... and I've gone on enough for this post, but you can be assured our plans are very long term and where we want to take Pantheon over the years is by no means limited to simply adding more vertical content (more levels, more mobs, more zones, more of the same). It's much, much more than that :)
What do you get when you level up? More stats, more abilities. What do you get when you add AA's? More stats, more abilities.
Kaen's OP suggestion is just more vertical advancement with a different mechanic. We had essentially that system in EQ with AA's as others have pointed out. Just as top end guilds had minimum level requirements, they also enforced minimum AA reqs, "Must be level 110 with 10,000AA's". The AA's gave stat boosts, new abilities and stuff that any high-end player would be severely disadvantaged if they didn't have it. That seems pretty vertical from my perspective, especially if you're proposing that you have to hit level cap before you start accumulating them. It's been done repeatedly in past games.
New classes, ships, housing, contested regions, user-generated content - that's horizontal. Let's hope for ongoing innovation and for the team to continue down the path outlined by Brad's vision as quoted by Philo.
Okay, I feel like several of us are on very different wavelengths, and I feel like several concerns here are due to people's experiences with EQ's AA. So, let me clarify some points and give a better example.
I envision something like this being implemented with the first expansion. New content and new gear is introduced. Awesome. But there is no level cap extension. Instead, a system like I proposed in the OP is introduced, allowing people to work towards something besides grinding faction, so that each kill is an accomplishment (like you are leveling your character 50-60). But instead, you get points for this system. Now, I would not envision this is being an ongoing system that might allow people to become super powerful over time by acquiring every available skill. Once you gain all the available points (5 points per GM level, of 10 total GM levels, for 50 total Ability Points), that's it. If there is a level cap extension, or another system introduced later, sure, yay. But this system would be capped at the 50 points.
Now, about balance, I wouldn't foresee this tremendously affecting balance. That being said, if you have a full group of people or a full raid who have all completed all of their GM levels, they're going to perform better than groups/raids who have not. That's how progression of any sort should be IMO. People who have put in the work should perform better than people who haven't.
So, let's assume a Warrior Named Booboo has achieved Grandmaster Level 10 and has 50 points to spend. This is what he might do (And this is just an example, I'm not trying to give Booboo the most elite tank spec...):
Increase AC for 5 seconds: 5 points (30 minute cooldown)
Increase AC for 10 seconds: 5 points (30 minute cooldown)
Increase AC for 15 seconds: 5 points (30 minute cooldown)
For the third ability, Booboo has spent 15 points.
Reduce Incoming Damage by 15% for 8 seconds (30 minute cooldown)
Reduce Incoming Damage by 30% for 8 seconds (30 minute cooldown)
Reduce Incoming Damage by 45% for 8 seconds (30 minute cooldown)
For the third ability, Booboo has spent 15 points.
Increase Melee Speed by 2%: 1 point
Increase Melee Speed by 4%: 3 points
Increase Melee Speed by 6%: 6 points
Increase Melee Speed by 8%: 10 points
Increase Melee Speed by 10%: 15 points
Increase Strength by 1: 1 point
Increase Strength by 3: 3 points
Increase Strength by 7: 6 points
Increase Strength by 12: 10 points
Increase Strength by 17: 15 points
Increase Max HP by 10: 1 point
Increase Max HP by 20: 3 points
Increase Max HP by 25: 5 points
Increase Max HP by 55: 8 points
Increase Max HP by 100: 12 points
Remove Negative Effect: 5 points for 1 hour cooldown
Remove Negative Effect: 5 points for 30 minute cooldown
Remove Negative Effect: 5 points for 15 minute cooldown
The third is a total of 15 points in this ability.
And this is only a fraction of what is available, but with only 50 points, I don't see how this would be detrimental to balance, especially if the system were introduced with new, more difficult content. Old content would still be challenging for players IMO.
So, let's look at what Booboo chose:
Remove Negative Effect (30 minute cooldown): 10 points total for "Remove Negative Effect II"
Increase AC for 15 seconds (30 minute cooldown): 15 points total for "Increase AC III"
Reduce Incoming Damage by 45% for 8 seconds (30 minute cooldown): 15 points total for "Reduce Incoming Damage III"
Increase Melee Speed by 8%: 10 points total for "Increase Melee Speed IV"
At this point, Booboo has spent all 50 points.
And with so many options, there are other things people might choose. For example, someone who is an off-tank might choose some combination of increased HP, Increased Parry, Increased Block, increased Magic Resistance, increased stam/con instead of buying the more expensive "Class" abilities, which they might find not very useful for the CD time. But the MT of a raid, for example, would probably want those more expensive class abilities.
Anyway, I think something like this could be done very well while both retaining balance and keeping players happy with something to work towards.
And I can certainly see people's concerns for balance issues if there were no cap to this system, but I would want to see this restricted to what I've mentioned. Never more than 50 Ability Points (GM level 10). Otherwise, you would definitely start to see balance issues. I assume that EQ AA, through continued use, caused significant balance issues.
It's been awhile since I watched the EQNext videos but I do remember watching a video that showed how the world would take on a "conquest" kind of system. FFXI also used this to some degree by allowing the major cities to claim various territories that would reset every couple weeks. If your city captured the most territories at the point of reset, the NPC merchants would offer new goodies, certain quests might become available, etc. I love that sort of thing in an MMO so am definitely interested in seeing how a Conquest-type system is eventually implemented. Beyond that, I'm also highly intrigued by player ships and housing. I loved building a guild castle in Vanguard and would love to see that same concept expanded upon, greatly, in Pantheon.
All that said, I think it's also important to continue adding some vertical advancement into the game as it continues to evolve. I think both horizontal and vertical are important because it allows players to experience more of a diagonal kind of progression. At any given point in time you can focus on one or the other, or sometimes both. There is nothing wrong with going up but I think the focus put into vertical progression in games of the past was way overdone and resulted in some nasty long-term consequences. I think it's a good idea to keep things grounded to some degree and the horizontal axis is a great way to balance that ideology into the game.
Celandor said:What do you get when you level up? More stats, more abilities. What do you get when you add AA's? More stats, more abilities.
Kaen's OP suggestion is just more vertical advancement with a different mechanic. We had essentially that system in EQ with AA's as others have pointed out. Just as top end guilds had minimum level requirements, they also enforced minimum AA reqs, "Must be level 110 with 10,000AA's". The AA's gave stat boosts, new abilities and stuff that any high-end player would be severely disadvantaged if they didn't have it. That seems pretty vertical from my perspective, especially if you're proposing that you have to hit level cap before you start accumulating them. It's been done repeatedly in past games.
New classes, ships, housing, contested regions, user-generated content - that's horizontal. Let's hope for ongoing innovation and for the team to continue down the path outlined by Brad's vision as quoted by Philo.
Edit: We posted very similar thoughts at the same time so I removed mine.
@ Kaen, I encourage you to look up other theads that talk about similar ideas.
oneADseven said:All that said, I think it's also important to continue adding some vertical advancement into the game as it continues to evolve. I think both horizontal and vertical are important because it allows players to experience more of a diagonal kind of progression. At any given point in time you can focus on one or the other, or sometimes both. There is nothing wrong with going up but I think the focus put into vertical progression in games of the past was way overdone and resulted in some nasty long-term consequences. I think it's a good idea to keep things grounded to some degree and the horizontal axis is a great way to balance that ideology into the game.
I see a fundamental difference here.
Vertical progression consists of ways to make your character more powerful - more levels, more gear, higher stats. I think the downside of vertical progression is that it eventually trivializes much of a game's content.
Horizontal is all about giving you new outlets for the abilities you already have or let to you grow in new directions with your character.
If your primary goal is to simply get more HP/AC/STR/DMG, then you're only looking at one dimension, regardless of what you call the stat improvements.
I understand that some players only want to grow vertically and see everything else as a waste of time. If that describes you, then maybe you're just not interested in horizontal progression. However, I'd be surprised if you weren't keenly interested in something like contested regions or dynamic AI driven changes to the environment which required players to respond to defend settlements, etc...
The point of a good MMORPG is that it has horizontal breadth of activities to attract many types of players and not merely a race for end game content.
Celandor said:However, I'd be surprised if you weren't keenly interested in something like contested regions or dynamic AI driven changes to the environment which required players to respond to defend settlements, etc...
I'm interested in seeing that kind of thing once or twice. If there is no incentive derived from the event that increases my characters power my motivation to replay it is slim to none.