Maybe some of you have heard of the Destiny 2 disaster that happened the last year. The Devs of the sequel of the famous Destiny 1 claimed that there is massive content in the game. This is what has been written :
'' There is actually so much new content that at one point the development team realized that they had more content than progression, even if they fixed that afterwards''
Now to put it in a nutshell : The content did exactly last 2 weeks. Then everbody was max level on all classes , had all items they needed and there was quite frankly nothing to do.
I know that lack of content is not only a dev problem but also a player problem. People play MMORPGs different than 20 years ago. When I started EQ1 I just wanted to run around in a Fantasy world , having fun and exploring the world. Already after Everquest when i first started EQ2 I played differently. I wanted to be one of the big raiders ive never been in EQ1. I breezed through levels and got many serverfirsts. And this kind of playing MMOs continued. Many MMO players play the games similary. Reach the endgame fast, get world firsts, get the best equip. And then ...there is nothing left to do.
Now I know the Pantheon Team is gonna make some great content. But I am honest , i fear that after the initial drop of the game the content may be finished fast. And with such a small team I dunno when an expansion can release.
How can endgame be expanded? More raids? Make dungeon crawling meaningful( Maybe augments for raidarmor just drop rarely in dungeons and nowhere else)? Daily Quests ( I hate those)
Whats your thoughts?
There are many things VR can do to keep players interested while waiting for the next content update. Pacing, for one, meaning that content should be designed so that a desired fraction of players will have just enough time to clear it before a new update is launched. This means, for instance, tuning the rate at which XP is earned and designing combat so that you actually need to be a certain level to clear certain content. Still, it's to be expected that some players will simply race ahead of the rest and finish existing content much faster.
I've long defended that a craft-based equipment system is much better suited to prolong the playability of an MMO, since raiders can always sell off their rare boss drops to allow other players to craft their high-end gear. Unfortunately, most games go for bound-on-acquire equipment drops, which means when you get whatever pieces drop from a given boss/raid, there is little incentive to re-run the content. I really hope Pantheon will go for crafted end-game sets, but I think I'm in the minority here.
It's really just different games, I too moved to EQ2, then after a month of that and nothing more to do, moved on to World of Warcraft, and stayed there for about a year, which I consider by today's standards to be pretty lengthy.
I feel like everything has been made easier, and when you make things easier, they then take less time to complete, be it through slower progression or hardships of getting enough people together to tackle content, or the right people.
EQ2 was terribly easy in comparison to EQ1 at launch, not so much in group pve mechanics, but just in your ability to progress through the game by yourself. I got max level in 2 weeks on a fresh server with no knowledge of the game previous. EQ1 i never reached max level, ever.. i just simply couldn't play it enough, as well as wasting a ton of time just enjoying the world.
WoW was different than EQ2 in that it wasn't easy at launch, you may have been able to progress through the game by yourself, but when it came to group dungeons, they were very hard, almost masochistic in comparison to EQ2, and much more like EQ1. A lot of people forget just how hard WoW was at launch, a year later it was easy mode, but early on with garbage talents and even more garbage gear, groups wiped in basic dungeons all day long.
At the end of the day (lol that phrase these days) more endgame isn't the answer, it's to go back to the EQ formula of making the leveling process take a comparable amount of time that would likely be needed to proceed with more content, nothing is worse than reaching the end of progressing your character and knowing an expansion isn't even announced. You have to not worry so much about the people who can't play 15 hours a day, because in the end if the people who DO play 15 hours a day want to keep playing forever, than the casuals will play too, because everyone wants to play games that their friends are playing. Especially if grinding is fun, and in Everquest, if you were grouped and bsing about politics and life while doing it, it really was.
Well i belive that the difficult setting "the real danger" and that you are mostly forced to do some groups and coop will make the game more meningful and rise the exerience for the whole game.
And if you have to go att it att a slow pace in a dangerus world it will last longer(and give more mening to it)
then with no maps, and quest lines more or less hidden will allso prolong the lifeline of the game :)
raids are part of it but i dont think they are the whole picture either there is so mutch content to find and explore like hidden spells/equipment new formulas etc.
attleast that is what i am hoping for..
and of course there will be those who is racing for lvl 50 playing 24/7 20 days a row living on red bull just to be the first nutcase to brag about it and saying the game was a breeze.
so to sum it upp i belive the journey is the best way to go about it, have fun, have great laughs take time to have fun...just look att everquest what is it like 18 years and still going =)
I think that the people that race to the "end" should be ignored when they complain about content. That is as long as there is enough at launch to keep the masses occupied. A big part of this game is horizontal progression. If people are either skipping that or power gaming through it just to do everything first that is fine. Play how you like to play. Just don't cater to those people.
The reason I say that is because you cannot ever make enough content to keep the hardcore power players occupied. They will always consume it faster than it can be produced. So it makes no sense to try in my opinion. Make good quality content is as much volume as you can. More is good for sure. Just don't bow to presure when the uber guilds start complaining 1 or 3 months after launch that there is nothing left to do when the majority of the players are still going though the early/mid levels. Now if the average player is getting everything done other steps need to be taken to address the problem. Maybe lower xp earned or something.
Progeny, the Mentor System/deleveling and AAs. All of these systems will extend the life of content. I recommend searching out threads that discuss those.
At the very least we know that the team is aware that the rate at which players go through content can become an issue and that they will be offering a few possible solutions.
End game for Pantheon need not be the only place flooded with content (meaningful content especially) and I'd say it would be a huge mistake if that happened (luckily they said they will not go that route). If they make the game challenging and leveling takes longer than MMOs of today then it will be much easier to keep up with content updates for VR and it won't run into the ever so common problem of people blowing to max level in a few days to a week and exhausting any end game. For example: in EQ a large portion of the playerbase didn't even hit level 50 before the first expansion came out and again a large portion didn't hit 60 before the second expansion hit. I believe the average /played to hit 50 was something like 40-50 days (which would be around 2.6 hours a day for a year) and IIRC leveling from 50 to 60 took the same amount of time as 1 to 50.
The biggest difference between EQ and most every MMO since is how leveling is treated, for modern MMOs (WoW and beyond) leveling is just a means to an end, a necessary evil. Leveling in EQ was an absolutely massive part of the experience, it was implemented in such a way that it didn't feel like something you had to do in order to experience the "real" game. Drops from all levels mattered and even low level players could be a part of/participate in the economy & community, without much of any no-drop/bound items and no level requirements you didn't have to wait until high levels to start gearing up your character. There also was always something in the not too distant future to look forward to for your class (more so for casters, but melee had some milestones), be it spells or abilities or a level that an equipped weapon starts to proc. You just felt like a part of the world, barred from almost nothing, and very few things felt like just a means to an end or waste of time just to get to the next thing.
philo said:At the very least we know that the team is aware that the rate at which players go through content can become an issue and that they will be offering a few possible solutions.
Not to be too much of a fan boy but VR includes some of the most veteran game designers and are just as much MMO enthusiasts as we all are. There will be a content/development team size balances that cannot be avoided and we will complete one round of content before the next round is released. What all statements from VR indicates is that they are focusing on making a game world where "end of new content" does not equal "end of fun".
Now making a game endlessly fun without adding new content is a little like building a perpetual motion machine but there are things that can be done to capitalize on player driven content and broaden replay ability. This will allow for each injection of new content to have a more significant staying power than for a game focused on progression.
All that being said, Pantheon being built on Unity was a brilliant and cost effective decision and I applaud the VR board for making that decision. By using a mostly plug and play engine they are able to focus fully on mechanics design and content creation. Game engines are brutally difficult to write/debug and can be even more difficult to support over time and require absolutely top end programing skills which is also very expensive. By pushing the game engine support onto a 3rd party and using a universal development platform it will actually be possible for VR to subcontract out entire expansions, which are content only, if the time/cash flow tables justify it.
For example as much as I appreciate Mark Jacobs desire for Camelot Unchained to be fully original code with a new game engine suited to large scale pvp battles including player numbers in the thousands, just last week they announced after receiving a 7.5 Million cash infusion for another manpower they are still looking at at least another 2 years of development before launch. From the start of the CU kickstarter until now a huge portion of CSE development time has been focused on game engine creation and bug fixing and relatively not that much has gone into content other than concept art. The main mitigating fact being that other than the capital cities and the gear look and feel almost all of the CU content will be player created and PVP driven with next to no PVE content.
Just keep this in mind before you worry too much about content.
Trasak
*cough* logarithmic power growth solves content worries *cough*
Krixus said:Someone dial up the Bazgrimphone. There are a lot of posts on this subject.
*ring* *ring*
The #1 tenet listed in the Pantheon Game Tenets is "An awareness that content is king."
That alone should really be enough proof that VR, with their many years of experience in the industry as both players and developers, have a deep understanding of how MMOs are completely and utterly content-driven. They have been designing Pantheon from day 1 to be a game that keeps players interested for "months and years." One simple way to help this is to build a certain degree of downtime into the game. Not only does this help increase social interaction and friendships, but it also makes it take a bit longer to complete content, giving devs more time before the majority of people have completed most of the content available. Also, they are taking their time to make sure that before they even launch the game, there is already plenty of content in the game to keep people busy for quite a while. But I think the biggest thing is to make it so that not all of the content is at the "end:"
We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.
Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.
As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you.
Also check out what Brad and Joppa said about this issue in this stream: https://youtu.be/c-VljOeRfis?t=1991
There's really too many threads on this topic to even list, but hopefully this eases some of your concerns.
As Bazgrim and others kindly pointed out, this is a repeated topic, we have many discussions on this subject so I will go ahead and close it down, please use the search function prior to creating a new thread as more often than not you will find that over the course of the games development (3+ years) most things have already been discussed in detail and are there to read, join in and share :)