I played EQ1 quite obsessively starting on Test Server in 1999. While the early game was insanely difficult and frustrating, like most of you I loved it. I simply picked a class, got to where I was not terrible at it, and all the hours of grinding and dying became worth it when I finally beat that damn orc chief or earned that crude bronze sword.
But as the years passed, none of the torturous game mechanics frustrated me nearly as much as my fellow fans. As discussion forums appeared on the Internet, and players were able to appeal to the developers more directly, things went to hell. Everyone thought they were a game designer and campaigned passionately to improve their favorite class - either through direct upgrades or by nerfing others or by modifying game mechanics to favor their class.
As a result, flavor of the month classes became a thing.
And we know that the futile effort to appease these vocal players – known then as the whiners - led to a lot of instability, a lot of people tearfully abandoning the classes they loved, game breaking class homogenization, and a trivialization of much of the content.
So, don't get me wrong please. It is fantastic to have a vibrant and enthusiastic fan base bringing in good ideas! However, let's all please try not to fall back into the kind of dysfunctional fan pressure that created so much chaos in EQ1.
So far this forum is great, but soon we will get exposed to the actual game and start to form attachments to our chosen classes. When that happens, and more players join, the tone of the forums could go to hell. Here are a few ground rules that we fans should accept to ensure that we do not become counterproductive.
You don't have to like every class.
You may not like the class you want to like.
Not all content needs to be equally easy for your class.
Not all loot needs to be attainable for your class.
Not all my great ideas are necessarily great on balance.
Suggest ideas, but don't demand appeasement.
Don't panic and rant about every idea proposed.
Let the real designers design and the real developers develop.
Don't issue "I'm cancelling my account unless..." threats.
When in game, help encourage class diversity by lightening up and welcoming anyone, even if not running a FOTM build, wherever possible.
Feel free to add others!
Something similar has already started happening on these forums.
I find that it is impossible for some people to have a discussion about what is best for the game or the playerbase as a whole. All they care about is what they want personally.
If we could all take our personal desires out of some of these discussions and only look at it from the point of view of what is best for everyone I think a lot of these threads would have gone in a different direction.
People are selfish. They want what is best for them at the expense of balance or fairness or what is best for the most people or the game as a whole. Some people don't even realize they are doing it.
I think caving in to the vocal minority is a common disease in this industry. It is especially insidious because it starts out small.....a little tweak here and there because the fans were "right" that was a mistake , well then an adjustment because that's not fair then a balancing , then etc. So this kinda sneaks up on you.
So far everything I've heard is that VR has their eyes open for this and are not going to get lulled into this.
This is just fear mongering. Putting decisions 100% in the hands of the devs and not providing feedback at all is equally as harmful as devs caving to every demand.
Developers are not gods and can gain plenty of solid feedback, advice, and suggestions from the playerbase. It is true that the overwhelming majority of feedback is just white noise that is not worth listening to, but it is the responsibility of the developers to recognize and separate meaningful feedback from that noise.
1999 EQ was a great game in 1999. There are plenty of things about it that could be improved in my eyes, and plenty of things that should be left alone. Pantheon isn't EQ, anyway, so that is completely irrelevant.
Great post my friend, it is always a good idea to stop, take a breath and re-evaluate your feedback before submitting it as it can have a big impact and be affect by many things in your life such as having a bad day at work and stressed, no time for some silly mob to kick your ass repeatedly --> bug it as too hard, mob gets rebalanced to be easier and now you move through that area faster than intended, throwing off the balance of other things like spawns, events, character level balance etc.
The point is to be fair, constructive and keep an open mind when testing and providing feedback, try to think of the big picture instead of zooming in on the little things that immediately affect you as you will often find that they are part of a much broader tree and can often play critical roles in the overall game balance.
No, the Devs are not gods but they are very experienced in what they do and are passionate gamers with tons of experience as customers too who have learned from many years of trial and error to know what works and what doesn't, so have a little faith.
fazool said:I think caving in to the vocal minority is a common disease in this industry. It is especially insidious because it starts out small.....a little tweak here and there because the fans were "right" that was a mistake , well then an adjustment because that's not fair then a balancing , then etc. So this kinda sneaks up on you.
So far everything I've heard is that VR has their eyes open for this and are not going to get lulled into this.
Not intending to be purposefully contentious here, but this idea of the "vocal minority" with MMO's has always puzzled me.
If we take the most successful MMO to date - World of Warcraft - and agree that its success is due largely to listening to that "vocal minority" in many of their developer decisions, can we then really, honestly, call it a minority? Of course, we would have to agree on what issues we're talking about when we discuss this vocal minority.
Quest markers, maps, easy to reach content, less penalties on death, class "balance" - these are issues that I would attribute to this group of MMO players, and also the areas that (aside from solid playability in general) WoW really shined on. So, if that came from this so called "vocal minority", that would, given WoW's success, make it a majority of players.
I've always considered Pantheon to me more of a niche game. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. As such, I'd say they SHOULD listen to the minority.
The majority want WoW.
We are, in this case, that vocal minority that wants something else.
"The squeaky wheels gets the grease"
People that complain the most speak for everyone, even if a minority. If someone ask for a change, if you like the way it is, speak up.
From the developer standpoint it helps that you create a vision for a game and stick with it. Only ask for solicitation to things that you truly are undecided on. When people complain about something, honestly, just ignore them if it goes against the game vision.
EQ absolutely suffered from listing to players too much.
I concur that the vocal minority argument doesn't really work with Pantheon. This game is being fundamentally designed to appeal to a niche, in that it is sticking to specific principles and trying to capture the widest audience possible without compromising the core philosophy.
The issue is that people are extremely tribalistic and it is very easy to fall into a pattern of categorizing people who express certain views without considering the merits of opinions or ideas in a vacuum. Labeling dissenting opinions as a "vocal minority" is a classic way to poison the well and undermine the validity of a point.
In short, try to do away with generalizations and consider the merits of suggestions/ideas on an individual basis. Being opposed to some EQ mechanics as they were in 1999 does not mean that you want Pantheon to be an easy game. Similarly, liking some EQ mechanics as they were in 1999 does not mean that you want Pantheon to be EQ with better graphics.
Kilsin said:bug it as too hard, mob gets rebalanced to be easier and now you move through that area faster than intended,
I would love a giant spider that just roams the zone and one shots people. Keep all of us on our toes for when The Stalker might appear. Have a tunnel network for its lair to try and find some loot in there. Maybe you see it roaming and think it's safe to go check the lair out. Hopefully you don't get lost or get out before it comes back.
That's where my head is at. I want some things to be more powerful than the players that can become legends among the community.
quietus said:Kilsin said:bug it as too hard, mob gets rebalanced to be easier and now you move through that area faster than intended,
I would love a giant spider that just roams the zone and one shots people. Keep all of us on our toes for when The Stalker might appear. Have a tunnel network for its lair to try and find some loot in there. Maybe you see it roaming and think it's safe to go check the lair out. Hopefully you don't get lost or get out before it comes back.
That's where my head is at. I want some things to be more powerful than the players that can become legends among the community.
Lol, that would be cool :)
Vaad said:EQ had that with spectres, giants, and griffins for example. They were typically much higher than you at the time you were in the zone; this is something i want to see again.
man I SO LOVED the old spectre npc model. That was the single reason I made a necro.
Totally agree here.
Liav said:I concur that the vocal minority argument doesn't really work with Pantheon. This game is being fundamentally designed to appeal to a niche, in that it is sticking to specific principles and trying to capture the widest audience possible without compromising the core philosophy.
The issue is that people are extremely tribalistic and it is very easy to fall into a pattern of categorizing people who express certain views without considering the merits of opinions or ideas in a vacuum. Labeling dissenting opinions as a "vocal minority" is a classic way to poison the well and undermine the validity of a point.
In short, try to do away with generalizations and consider the merits of suggestions/ideas on an individual basis. Being opposed to some EQ mechanics as they were in 1999 does not mean that you want Pantheon to be an easy game. Similarly, liking some EQ mechanics as they were in 1999 does not mean that you want Pantheon to be EQ with better graphics.
Right now, you would probably be right. Most people here agree on most things about the game. The issue is after it ships any many more people influx into the game.
In my example, say a specific raiding guild members always complained about something, but no other players or other guilds feel it's an issue. Then the developers make a change because of the complaining guild to the detriment of others who did not speak up.
bigdogchris said:"The squeaky wheels gets the grease"
People that complain the most speak for everyone, even if a minority. If someone ask for a change, if you like the way it is, speak up.
From the developer standpoint it helps that you create a vision for a game and stick with it. Only ask for solicitation to things that you truly are undecided on. When people complain about something, honestly, just ignore them if it goes against the game vision.
EQ absolutely suffered from listing to players too much.
I absolutely second this. My biggest experience with an MMO was with The Elder Scrolls Online, and it suffered terribly for a number of reasons, one of which was the lack of a clear vision or the lack of guts to stick with it. Given how the game was out of Beta, I honestly believe players were intended to level up doing the storyline quests of their faction and then gang up on other factions in Cyrodiil 3-way PvP war. At launch this had already changed, with players able to "experience" the storyline of opposing factions with the aid of some magic plot device and the introduction of "veteran" levels. Then came a *huge* nerf to difficulty due to player outcry. Then a series of rebalancing fixes that essentially catered to the PvP community and often broke certain classes for PvE. But most importantly, developer feedback was pretty much non-existent until the very moment they came up with the next change trying to appease the vocal minorities.
I hope VR have the financial security and the spine to tell fans very clearly when their requests aren't going to be considered, and to explain why. When the developer is silent, the community does the talking, which isn't always good. When developers own the discourse they can drown out the noise much more easily. "We are not currently considering X, because Y" goes a long way not just in explaining why things are the way they are (possibly convincing some of the critics), but also in preventing the same issues from being discussed over and over again. Take grouping, for example. I am absolutely, 100% positive that there will be a ton of people complaining that the game is too hard and that they can't complete lots of content solo. For us who are here now, that is a given. That is Pantheon. VR needs to tell people who complain about it that there is no way they are turning the game into a single-player MMO, and possibly mention to them the wonders of guilds, group play, and the tutoring system.
Liav said:I concur that the vocal minority argument doesn't really work with Pantheon. This game is being fundamentally designed to appeal to a niche, in that it is sticking to specific principles and trying to capture the widest audience possible without compromising the core philosophy.
I don't really agree. Even at the current state of development we can see on certain issues very strong, opposing positions on key issues. Once the game launches it will have adopted certain solutions to said issues, and I'm sure not all will be convinced. As more players who haven't been involved since development come into the game, they will also have their own opinions. People voice their complaints much more frequently than their compliments. This is why I think it's so important that VR have the ability to address certain fracturing issues with very clear and definitive answers instead of letting them fester in the forums.
daemonios said:Liav said:I concur that the vocal minority argument doesn't really work with Pantheon. This game is being fundamentally designed to appeal to a niche, in that it is sticking to specific principles and trying to capture the widest audience possible without compromising the core philosophy.
I don't really agree. Even at the current state of development we can see on certain issues very strong, opposing positions on key issues. Once the game launches it will have adopted certain solutions to said issues, and I'm sure not all will be convinced. As more players who haven't been involved since development come into the game, they will also have their own opinions. People voice their complaints much more frequently than their compliments. This is why I think it's so important that VR have the ability to address certain fracturing issues with very clear and definitive answers instead of letting them fester in the forums.
I think you're missing the point a little, no offense intended.
Obviously any given solution to a problem is not going to be accepted equally among the entire playerbase. The real question is whether or not these solutions compromise on the principles the game is being developed on.
Not all feedback is made equal. Even if VR came out and said "this is 100% how we're doing X, no questions asked" you'd still get an equal amount of forum screeching. At the end of the day, forums in general are a public medium, meaning that it necessarily gets interacted with by people of, uhhhhh, wildly different abilities to form coherent arguments.
Don't sweat what happens on forums too much. It's what they're for.
I know a certain necro that is sensitive to the "drood" vocal influence to game play that may have been one of the first instances of this kind of influence that the OP mentions. To the point where said necro would seek out said "droods" and... do things, necro things *cringe*.
Please no roaming mobs that are so powerful that people at the correct level for the zone have no chance at all to survive an encounter with them.
A challenge is one thing - a "see me and die" creature is just sadism.
I agree with the OP.
With respect to classes each class should be interesting and fun for people that like its role and style to play. And should add something no other class does to a group. But they should not all be equal, and "beef up class A since class B is more powerful" or "nerf class A since class B is less powerful" should be anathma as long as both A and B have roles to play and play those roles well enough that they can get in groups.
daemonios said: ... This is why I think it's so important that VR have the ability to address certain fracturing issues with very clear and definitive answers instead of letting them fester in the forums.There are very good reasons (from their perspective) developers keep the details vague until the last possible second, and VR is the same in this regard. Most of the reasons are financial.
A practical example; If all the racial bonuses, class skills & spells, and details of all the "missing pieces" were public, people can make an informed decision NOT to be a customer. Right now that's not the case, and so people are more likely, no matter how little, to climb on the social bandwagon and donate/pledge. Just enough to offer the tantalizing hope of something better. The reality is always disappointing, so when the spells are finally known, and the racial bonuses are finally known, and the number of zones for launch is finally known, the mystery will be gone.
As a result, you will not get that information in writing until the last possible second, if ever.
vjek said:daemonios said: ... This is why I think it's so important that VR have the ability to address certain fracturing issues with very clear and definitive answers instead of letting them fester in the forums.There are very good reasons (from their perspective) developers keep the details vague until the last possible second, and VR is the same in this regard. Most of the reasons are financial.
Put another way, if there is no mystery, there is no reason to pledge, donate or subscribe to uncover the mystery.A practical example; If all the racial bonuses, class skills & spells, and details of all the "missing pieces" were public, people can make an informed decision NOT to be a customer. Right now that's not the case, and so people are more likely, no matter how little, to climb on the social bandwagon and donate/pledge. Just enough to offer the tantalizing hope of something better. The reality is always disappointing, so when the spells are finally known, and the racial bonuses are finally known, and the number of zones for launch is finally known, the mystery will be gone.
As a result, you will not get that information in writing until the last possible second, if ever.
My bad for not being specific, but I actually meant what I said for a later stage when the game is running at full speed and players start pushing for changes in this or that aspect of the game. During development I absolutely agree that VR need to hold their cards close to their chest.
