In the community spotlight Wandidar says it's those first 30-60 mins literally are the deciding factor as to if someone will play longer, for days, months, years even.
I agree and disagree.
As gamers and unfortunately, as todays attention deficit disorder generation those 30-60 mins only happen if the first 5-10 mins are bearable. You put someone in a game and the controls are horrible, the movements are ridged or the UI is atrocious and you don’t' even get to that person to last 30 mins. (I've watched the videos, I'm pretty confident in Pantheons UI, and movements)
30-60 mins will also only be enough to get someone (if the above is good) to put in a full session. (Gaming sessions are typically anywhere from 2-6 hours). So even casual gamers (again, if the above is good) will give you a session to see if they'll come back. Which leads me to my point.
If you're working hard to only get 30-60 mins of wow time in at the beginning of a game, you're going to lose a lot right off the bat. First 5 mins can get you to 30-60 mins, 30-60 mins can get you to a full session. It’s during that session (and once a gamer is into their session they will over look little things) that you’ll earn a returning player, for a day, month or years.
I know where most games make that hard effort for the first 30 mins. It’s obvious, it’s also obvious they think I’m going to stick around after 30 mins of fun when it’s clear that everything after that is repetitive and dull.
I like what I've seen in Pantheon and I think it'll have plenty of draw outside of the first session. But that first session is extreamly important to gamers who are skeptics or those on the fence.
If there is a valid point anywhere in your post, it is overshadowed by your invocation of ageism.
I assure you that your parents thought your generation were morons as well, and your parents' parents thought the same thing. There's nothing cool, interesting, novel, and most importantly true, about idiocy like that.
Well aside from your personnal instults Liav there are plenty of recent studies showing a shortening of attention span of all ages.
And my point was that if Wandidar is aiming at only making it so 30-60 mins will be a good goal to get "keepers" IMO, he's wrong. And my explanation is above.
But, I'm sure if you work at it hard enough you can insult me more and derail my entire (what was supposed to be) casual thread of something (for those of us not in PA) to talk about.
I didn't insult you once, I'm just telling you that discriminating against groups of people is not a great way to get a point across. Your accusation that I'm being insulting is the essence of irony.
You're also changing your asserion to "all ages show shortened attention spans" from "this generation shows shortened attention spans" which is not the same thing at all. If you're going to spew nonsense, at least be consistent.
Calling you out for being prejudiced isn't derailing. Or is it? I honestly don't care.
Personally I think people need a sence of immagination to be able to truely experience and stay hooked on MMOs. Often times the people who play these types of games can place themself in the world and start creating a backstory for their character without the story being created for them. This also holds over for movies. Most high fantasy stories require a bit of immagintation on the part of the viewer so they can be "in" the story not just watching it.
As a society we have become more accustomed to instant gratification. (Ever stand at the microwave wondering why 60 seconds takes so long :) ).
Technology has afforded us the ability to do things with very little pre-planning, even a simple phone call. You used to have to find a phone, now theres one in your pocket all the time.
We used to wait for TV shows, now we stream them when we want to watch them. You don't even need to leave your house to go shopping anymore.
30-60 minutes might not be much time, but for many, unless they feel like that first 30-60 minutes has given them something in return, they're opinion of anything beyond that will be tainted.
I also disagree to an extent. When I first joined eq1 I was new to online gaming. After creating a Barbarian Shaman I didn't feel like I was anywhere I wanted to be. Then after creating a Half-elf warrior I was a little more comfortable, but not "home". After a month of grouping with 2 wizzies,a pally and 2 rangers I was not really into the game that much. We were in HHkeep and one of the groups friends came in and gave him a full set of bronze armor. He looked cool but was encumbered if he got too much loot. The person who came in was a Druid. When he buffed us all and left I kinda thought "wow,he was awesome"
Thats when i made our first druid. My wife and I played together on one machine. It got so we were both really hooked on the game now. I really was home. So home in fact I went out and bought the parts and had a friend help build a second machine so we could play in a group together.
So I really think first impressions are not always the most important. In a game like this it may be more important to find your "spot" in the game.
I like that Isaya :)
And with that it's worth it to point out that if a new player isn't able to give more than 10 minutes to assess the game, they aren't likely to have a personality that meshes with the goals of Pantheon anyway. If 10 minutes is too much to ask of them for a fair shake, a 30 minute run to the next city probably is too, as would be asking them to go back to get their gear from their corpse, or to do a dozen other things that are a foreign concept to anyone used to current MMO's that cater to instant gratification.
30-60 minutes is probably a little short too if the intent is to create a game that doesn't hand-hold you thru everything.
Crowfall is going through that very issue right now.
People log in, see the UI, feel the movement... and log out.
You only get one shot at a first impression.
Elder Scrolls Online is a good example of a game that made an awesome first impression (and then failed horribly later on).
Feyshtey said:30-60 minutes is probably a little short too if the intent is to create a game that doesn't hand-hold you thru everything.
Yes, and this was most of the point I was trying to make. Gamers (sorry if I'm offending anyone by sterotyping you or discriminating against you) will play a session and that session is typically longer than 60 mins. If by the end of that session they are already bored, enraged or frustrated by the game, you've lost them. Not many, on the fence people, are going to give you a second session. If you can get them to log in for a second session, you've got them.
Reasons that I at some time or another have bailed on MMOs/games upon first trial: convoluted menus (often with no explanation of what things are/do), long slog of an opening story/tutorial (especially when mandatory), I realise the whole game is about choking down menial tasks under the guise of "quests", combat is a joke: I don't feel threatened by anything and attacks have no weight to them, the animations and sounds are awful, the interface is terrible, I have to install tons of mods to make anything look/work decently...or I have to install mods for any reason.
Kittik said:Well aside from your personnal instults Liav there are plenty of recent studies showing a shortening of attention span of all ages.
And my point was that if Wandidar is aiming at only making it so 30-60 mins will be a good goal to get "keepers" IMO, he's wrong. And my explanation is above.
But, I'm sure if you work at it hard enough you can insult me more and derail my entire (what was supposed to be) casual thread of something (for those of us not in PA) to talk about.
Sidestepping any drama, I get your sentiment, but 5-10m is hardly enough time to get out of the starting room in many places. If someone only plays 5-10m I don't think they planned to stick around much to begin with. However, I do agree with the control and movement statement. That's something that must be polished and ready to go at launch regardless of the game. But here are my thoughts on the rest. 30-60m is not enough time to judge an MMORPG, but I think the initial point that was being made is that that first hour is roughly the hook. If you can lock someone's interest in on that first hour of play, chances are they will be back for more. I've played quite a large number of MMOs myself, and I've played a few that fail to interest me in that first hour. I kept playing for other reasons, but some are really not too good at that first impression bit. And if you can't lock a person's interest in that first hour, they probably won't be back too often.
While the first hour is not necessarily a deal breaker, I think it is an important one to make a strong first impression on. As an example, RIFT at launch made a great impression that first hour. The rifts and full zone invasion events were fantastic and a lot of fun. Sadly, it did stumble later on. So while that first hour is important in getting a player's attention, the hours that follow need to be just as polished and escalate the fun, tension, challenge, and world story just as much. Make it fun and engaging and the community will do the rest. There's nothing more disappointing than a game that hits the ground running only to run face-first into a brick wall just as it's finding its stride.
A game has to be pretty horrible to lose someone in just 30 minutes unless the player arrived with seriously misguided expectations (Why don't gnomes have grenade launchers?)
I suppose I would quit playing in 5 or 10 minutes if the game client ran poorly on my hardware.
Serious post-launch bugs will drive me screaming from a game probalby faster than anything. If the publisher doesn't care enough to fix the big broken stuff, I'm not going to waste my valued leisure time.
I have quit a couple of games because the avatar choice left me seriously wanting or I just couldn't get immersed in my character after a few hours of play.
Generally I wont quit a game that i'm on the fence with until I've played probably for ten hours or more. I surprise myself with Steam account info sometimes where I'll be shocked at just how many hours I've spent on a game that I'm not completely convinced to play.
The reason I dropped ESO was because within the first couple days I realized I was running from quest to quest and not even paying attention to the story anymore.
Right then I realized the game itself did not draw me in.
I think Isaya had a really good point that it is about finding an aspect of the game that really speaks to you. Obviously within the first session is ideal, but not always required.
I think it is important for us to understand the motivations and expectations that someone playing pantheon will have. If they are a pledged supporter that is one set of expectations. But what if they just heard about it from a friend? What if they are completely new to MMOs? We should try to make sure we think about a new player's experience through those lenses too.
I think I get the point, but I see it a little differently, I mean, look how kids are taking to computer pads and swiping, I've heard two stories of a child taking an old PS controller and not understadning why the game would not react when she veered to the side, or why you could not swipe on the TV (yet).
The point I see is time it takes to hook- getting faster, even e-articles are written in short sentences (at least some Newyorker magazine articles online, are) compare it to Moby dick and you wonder if anyone had time to make it though one of those long (no run-on) descriptive sentences. presentation? bah- give me a powerpoint former Pres Obama.
there is a psychological phenomena that embraces this concept,. I forget what its called I think its called Morphological learning? its the concept where the Grandson of a mouse completes the same maze his grandfather did in less time, the first time he sees it, The concept is that something is passed down where the grandson knows a little deep inside maybe even intuitively, that allows him to complete the maze in less time, instead of the same time when running the maze for the first time.
I see it as more of the acces to instant information and the possibility of impatience that may drive new players away. I admire the concern. It is new players coming in over years that will keep the game vibrant as I see it. Compared to myself- heck I am waiting years before the game is even made! lol and many will spend time on the - maybe even days- on the character creation screen.
Interesting concept, like how people were even scared of the force of the speed of a Railroad train going 35miles an hour when it was first a "thing"- but the kids saw it as common place, grandkids got bored at the pace. Or Bull dogs and Skateboards- who knew they would take to them so effortlessly!? Seriously show a bulldog a skateboard, encourage a few mechanics (placing dog and paws, gently) and they seem to understand it instantly.
Fulton said:The reason I dropped ESO was because within the first couple days I realized I was running from quest to quest and not even paying attention to the story anymore.
Right then I realized the game itself did not draw me in.
Now that you mention it, thats probably the reason I eventually left too. Got up to level 50ish and I was done.
Manouk said:
I don't believe humans have shorter attention spans now compared to other times and as far as I can tell there is no evidence of human attention spans shrinking (aside from the sham report that circulated all over in 2015). People are just more selective with their attention if anything but otherwise humans have just as much as ever. Also it doesn't seem like something that can even be measured as attention is extremely task dependent.
Cleeze said:Im pretty sure most of us could agree you will spend over an hour creating your charater :P
~Cleeze
With most MMO's yeah an hour is really nothing to spend customizing a character so playing this for 10 minutes and quitting seems impossible really. That being said I wonder how much customization we're going to ultimately have when this releases? So far we haven't seen anything on character creation that I'm aware of. Hopefully it's extremely detailed so we can get tons of unique looks.
I'm not so sure any of the given time frames (5 min, 30 min, 60min) are what will really matter.
All these imply putting the new user through a false, set up, give them what they want senerio to "draw them in"
The way I understand it that is NOT Pantheon.
That's a FTP mmo that is trying to suck people into a bad game.
VR with Pantheon are trying to make a FUN game, a World. If your going to base it on your first 30- 60 min you WILL be disappointed.
I belive VR is playing the long game. Those of us here are all (OK most) going to give it much longer than 60min.. we know what to expect. IF VR does what they are shooting for and make a FUN game, we stay... word will spread, streamers will Stream and "they" will come, IF they had already been here and didn't find there solo freebe easy mode they think they wanted they will send others (word of mouth, streams etc) playing and they will come looking for what others are seeing, at that time they will give it more than the 30- 60 min.
IF VR hits the target and makes a FUN game, they will come!
Some things I can absolutely judge in 60 minutes. Some things I can't. Graphics, animations, writing, and a general sense of quality are all things that I don't need max level to judge. If I log into Pantheon when it's released, and find choppy animations with the first quest text reading "All your base are belong to us," I likely won't continue to give VR my money. I don't honestly think that will happen with Pantheon, but I have played games that definitely fall into the "well, that was a waste of time." category. In other words, an hour isn't enough time for me to tell if I'll enjoy a game, but it's usually enough to know if I'll outright dislike it.
Iksar said:Manouk said:I don't believe humans have shorter attention spans now compared to other times and as far as I can tell there is no evidence of human attention spans shrinking (aside from the sham report that circulated all over in 2015). People are just more selective with their attention if anything but otherwise humans have just as much as ever. Also it doesn't seem like something that can even be measured as attention is extremely task dependent.
OMG Thank you Ikasr.. I believe that is exactly right, good or bad attention span is a learned thing and it is also dependant on the task as you mentioned so perfectly. No doubt Tablet and TV parenting means kids can just turn off or on to whatever is going to stimulate them the most and that would be effecting a large portion of the population and that has been happening for a while.
All this aside, if a game is crap at the beginning... then not many people with either long attention spans or short are going to want to keep playing it, availability of choice will decide that, if somthing is better you will sink your time into that instead. If you are told that the game gets a whole lot better... then probably attenmtion span will come into play as far as whether you decide to get to that point in the game. Teaching delayed gratification is a better subject here and it gets mentioned in every second topic on this forum, a lot of new age gamers are seeking instant gratification... So 30-60 mins is as fair a time frame as any...
honestly i dont think Wandidar was delivering a scientific timeframe in his community spotlight, so its probably not worth arguing how long it takes to decide if a range of different people will keep playing a game they do or dont like, it will differ for everyone. But his point is true and a good one i recon, instant gratification will play a part in peoples decisions... but VR is not building a game to benefit these players, at least not from a quest and loot stand point. However with gritty epic graphics that feel real, and a world that amazes, these people may decide that they want to explore because of the sheer amazement of the world and what may lay around the next corner. And through the mechanics of the game learn that wih delayed gratification comes (for some / most people) greater rewards!
Just my 2 cents
