This is in response to Brad's subquestion of how you design a server to minimize gold farming.
I don't think the issue at hand is particularly unique. For gold farming the use of PLEX seems very similar to the legalization of drugs. If you want to get rid of the seedy underbelly of ugly exploitation and theft, then you can bring it to the surface and clean it up and institutionalize it. You open up a market for drugs and regulate it. However, many people will now be freely using drugs and everyone will need to accept that. This gaming community doesn't feel like Amsterdam right now, and while I think that's okay, it does leave us with a tough problem.
Unfortunately in the case of MMO's the drug is gold and pretty much does grow on trees - it only takes the time and effort to harvest. Everyone is performing the illicit act of gold farming while playing the game - everyone is growing drugs. If we want to keep people from excessive gold farming and selling it for profit then you either have to target the farming or the selling.
Keeping man hours proportional to avatar hours helps here. Preventing botting and limiting the effectiveness of multi-boxing, but you guys are already working on this.
Enforcement sadly falls primarily on the governing body and does cost a lot of money, but there are likely mechanics that can be introduced to help get the big fish. Currency carrying limits, banked currency limits, and limiting the "advertising power" of players by level so lowbie mules can't be the ones carrying out these transactions.
Limitations on repeated actions could be an approach. Generally speaking (especially with botting and multi-boxing) repeated actions yield the most efficient results. I would be fine playing on a server where after repeatedly killing goblins and taking their money/items, they would run out of money/items (no effect on raid and quest mobs since nobody farms those for gold anyways). Perhaps if you spend extended periods of time fighting then you begin to become weary of combat and get a progressive debuff until you take a break with some downtime activities.
1. It is enormously helpful to have people at VR with influence in the decision making come here and ask what we think on any issue. It gives us a feeling that our opinions actually have some relevance, it gives them additional information, and it gives us some insight into what is being considered and where things stand. Thanks.
2. We should never assume that the question implies the answer. It is entirely reasonable to take a possibility that you are 90% sure is NOT the way to go and see what we think. Firstly, there is always the small chance that you have misread community sentiments. More importantly, given that many of us are smart and have considerable MMO experience (for the sake of false modesty excluding myself from that comment) we may come up with different ways of accomplishing an objective or changes that make a crappy idea into a decent one.
3. As often said by quite a few people, we need a game that is true to its core objectives, and we need a game that is financially successful. Neither goal is more important than the other - without both being accomplished we have nothing. An argument that we should sacrifice the chance for success in order to maximize our idealogical purity is as ridiculous as an argument that we should morph our objectives and turn Pantheon into "son of WoW" (or daughter) because that will sell better.
4. No cash shop of any type for in-game items would be my first choice from a purity point of view - with all due respect to VR once you start down that slippery slope it is hard to stop even if all you sell at first is totally cosmetic. Ditto no ability to buy anything of real world value (such as playtime) with in-game items. If subscription revenue is not enough to keep the boat afloat, and I have to trust VR's judgment on this, selling purely cosmetic items may be the least bad way to go.
5. How does all of this tie in to lootboxes? Lootboxes are evil - definitely the spawn of Morgoth ....oops wrong game. But they are more obtrusive than a store - either the boxes or the keys for them tend to drop more and more frequently, filling up inventory, in the hope people will buy the matching item that is only (or primarily) available for sale from VR. Even if they contain ONLY cosmetic items such as clothes, different types of horses, pets and the like and aren't even remotely "pay to win" they are an annoyance.
6. Worse from VR's point of view they are likely to seriously offend a much larger percentage of the more dedicated supporters than a store, especially if the store is not in-game.
7. If VR needs the revenue - and as said above I have to trust them on this type of judgment - IMO the least bad (not GOOD but least bad) approach may be a store that is not in-game, that sells things most of us will accept as legitimate such as playtime, perhaps character transfers, perhaps character renames, perhaps gender or race changes etc and that also sells purely cosmetic items such as clothes, pets and different types of horses.
8. I know there have been heated debates on whether character transfers or name changes should be allowed at all - I mention them as possibilities not to endorse them and let us not divert the thread into those issues there are other threads to use for that.
By edit - I agree with Ainadak's post immediately above this one. I would note that a major reason gold farmers hurt a game is the spam in chat no matter how hard the developers work to ban any account that is used. Limitations on free trials can be effective but can be worse than the problem they try to solve if they make it hard for anyone using the free trial to actually experience the game, with its important social aspects. Perhaps ideal is a robust spam filter that automatically blocks the great majority of goldspam - I believe EQ2 was a game that did that well unless my memory is fading with the years and it was a different game.
Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
Again, I think it could be implimented great in a dedicated server - but after years of dealing with the Activisions, Ubisofts, and EA's the taint is too much. The trust just won't be there as a whole. Hell, look at the world record downvote Battlefield just won. Even if the idea is solid, it would be a PR nightmare.
Aradune said:Very cool, thanks all for the feedback, comments, and analysis of PLEX-like systems in other games. Your posts essentially reinforced for me why I had the initial negative reaction to the idea (it's an old idea and I'd thought about it years back, but like I said, it was brought up to me very recently and got me thinking about it again). I think in a way such a system is similar to how I look at Instancing. Does it solve some real problems? Yes, but it also creates many more problems than it solves. The negatives simply far outweigh the one positive (curbing gold farming). One could argue there is a second positive, that being revenue for the developer as opposed to the farmer, but that was never really part of my thinking process -- for me the way to create a profitable venture is by creating excellent entertainment, experiences, and value for our players -- do that, and everything else falls into place.
I also cannot reconcile implementing such a system even if put into a firewalled box, e.g. an alternate ruleset server. It would still bleed out and contaminate. As excited as I am about Alternate Ruleset Servers, they are still variations of the core game, they're still Pantheon, and the core audience are the same people. That means there are lines that should not be crossed, and I think we've found a good example of a system that when looked at holistically crosses that line.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion and bringing me up to date on how other MMOs have implemented a variety of 'Plex' systems, their similarities and differences. I was genuinely curious as to whether someone had devised a way to implement such a system without crossing the line into pay-to-win, etc.
-Brad
IMO the gold standard right now is Overwatch. I don't think anyone has an issue with cosmetics. If you are looking to encourage people who cannot afford to pay the subscription, then I would create a new way (quests, time played, events, or who knows -- just not the tradeable valuable resource whether gold, weapon crystals, etc.). My recommedation is a guild "kickstarter". Let there be a guild menu option and let the communites/ guilds pitch in to help their friends.
Ainadak said: ... Limitations on repeated actions could be an approach. Generally speaking (especially with botting and multi-boxing) repeated actions yield the most efficient results. I would be fine playing on a server where after repeatedly killing goblins and taking their money/items, they would run out of money/items (no effect on raid and quest mobs since nobody farms those for gold anyways). Perhaps if you spend extended periods of time fighting then you begin to become weary of combat and get a progressive debuff until you take a break with some downtime activities.
Having seen Diminishing Returns in GW2, I would rather have a cash shop than Diminishing Returns. I hate it that much. :)
As far as brainstorming solutions, you can build an economy around time and player time in combat as a resource, rather than gold. In fact, you can make it so gold doesn't even drop from creatures at all, if you want.
However, then it becomes account trading. And if account trading is permitted anyway, then it doesn't matter how much time & effort you put into addressing currency trading, because even without it, external profiteers will simply switch to account trading.
What it comes down to is... Is VR willing to set limits on account and billing information changes? If they are, then there can be a viable path forward to address the core of the problem. If they're not, then it's just like every other MMO with the same challenges and lack of viable solutions.
This is all academic, though, as VR has already confirmed gold and static loot will drop directly from creatures. Infinite gold taps, activate! :)
I really want nothing to do with a system where you can use real money to buy tokens to then sell in the game (WoW tokens or EQ Krono). As mentioned, every item in game will have a real money value assigned to it.
Just find a way to stop gold farmers that doesn't involve tokens or in-game cash shop.
After reading this topic, I'm not sure what more I can add. My opinion is pretty much aligned with the majority of those posting. Any form of Kronos or PLEX item can and will negatively effect the game and bleed onto other servers.
The system does do well to eliminate 3rd party gold farmers from servers. The end result however, is VR filling that void. Instead of paying MMOMONEY.net $15 bucks for 10k Plat, you pay VR $15 for a token which you sell in game for 10k Plat. As mentioned previously, this at the very least means VR gets the revenue. The damage to the game economy is the same, regardless of who is providing the service.
I'm more on the fence when it comes to cosmetics. It doesn't affect gameplay, but it can certainly break immersion and alter your experience. (Easy example, as someone alluded to earlier, is the warrior you recruited for the group arrives and starts tanking rampaging, one-eyed ogres with tridents in naught but a bikini.
Aradune said:I'm not going to stop engaging the community, listening to our future customers, and feeling I can bring up just about anything here.
Thank you for being open with us, and please continue to engage us on ideas. Its really a major part of why I love this community and how you all are building this game.
As for the PLEX items... I say No. As others have stated its just a way to legalize gold farming, and honestly it means more people will be "farming" vs playing which ruins the experience of the game for me.
Even allowing players to purchase there monthly subscription with gold period results in the same issue. I'd prefer to focus on playing and enjoying the game as a whole with others vs running around group after group of gold farmers who are just trying to use the game to make money and such.
Enjoy that you are keeping an open mind about things as such, but again I see nothing positive about this type of system in an MMO and just see it changing the focus of the game for many to gold farmer which isn't on any of my many lists of things i'm looking forward to doing in Pantheon. :)
I will add my voice to the chorus of people who feel it will upset the economy. Just log into Everquest or Everquest 2 and you will see everything is being valued based on the number of Kronos you are willing to exchange or the plat equivalent to a Krono.
I know policing RMT is a pain for a company, but I think the focus needs to be on creative ways to eliminating those farmers/sellers instead of introducing sanctioned RMT.
Aradune said:Beefcake said:Retsof said:I think a special ruleset server with absolutely no way to trade across servers should solve any issue. The only concern I have at that point is the Sony effect where they change the rules later and make it available ... at a cost.
This is the biggest concern. Don't get the community to allow this, since it's only on specialized servers, then later change the rules to bring it elsewhere.
Totally hear you guys. Again:
1. This is just an idea that I wanted to bring to you all and hear your experiences and thoughts. There are *NO* plans for such a server.
2. We would isolate it and not allow transfers and such
3. We would *never* change the rules and bring it to a regular server.
Dont just listen to the few, i enjoyed the idea of buying a so called Plex item to enable on a different account of mine. If i purchased lets say 10 Plex items i wanted to transfer to a friend or family account i have that option. Many of us used that same type system in EQ. If current market offered in game currency to trade for my one Plex item, it is my choice to spread amonst the accounts. If i simply wanted to just click it for one month that is great. I just do not like to keep using a CC card each and everytime for someone elses account if they are unable to play with me.
So yes some of us really liked it brad, and it wasnt always an abused system.
Also please allow for Paypal, since some of us use it instead of a CC and have security messures in place incase of Online gaming, CC using sites get hacked. Like our old Sony issue we had years ago?
Crazzie said:Dont just listen to the few, i enjoyed the idea of buying a so called Plex item to enable on a different account of mine. If i purchased lets say 10 Plex items i wanted to transfer to a friend or family account i have that option. Many of us used that same type system in EQ. If current market offered in game currency to trade for my one Plex item, it is my choice to spread amonst the accounts. If i simply wanted to just click it for one month that is great. I just do not like to keep using a CC card each and everytime for someone elses account if they are unable to play with me.
So yes some of us really liked it brad, and it wasnt always an abused system.
There are better ways to go about doing that without an in-game tradable item, like time cards. Or Venmo your friend/family some money so they can pay with their own card.
Iksar said:Crazzie said:Dont just listen to the few, i enjoyed the idea of buying a so called Plex item to enable on a different account of mine. If i purchased lets say 10 Plex items i wanted to transfer to a friend or family account i have that option. Many of us used that same type system in EQ. If current market offered in game currency to trade for my one Plex item, it is my choice to spread amonst the accounts. If i simply wanted to just click it for one month that is great. I just do not like to keep using a CC card each and everytime for someone elses account if they are unable to play with me.
So yes some of us really liked it brad, and it wasnt always an abused system.
There are better ways to go about doing that without an in-game tradable item, like time cards. Or Venmo your friend/family some money so they can pay with their own card.
Sure there was and is, but i did perfer the Krono idea. It worked out well for me and friends and family.
Thank you, Brad, for giving us the opportunity to share our thoughts.
Initial thought. Hell no. Based purely on an opinion formed by reading other posts and threads containing this topic.
I read all posts. I wish everyone else did too to see all the responses, especially Brad's follow up questions and comments.
The question that intrigues me the most is not whether we should or should not have plex (I think the community, including me, has responded with a resounding no) but rather, if there was such a system, how would/could it work so that it doesn't impact the game, the vision, the servers, the community, and most of all, people out of the community's perception of Pantheon.
The question then is how or what system could be devised so that one person with limited fund can still play the game. The obvious answer was the ability to "sell" in game items, gold, services for PLEX or whatever you call it. This answer however has received, rightfully, negative responses. So then what?
How could it work?
I'm not sure that it can. As soon as Real Money is involved, people will find a way to abuse it.
No matter how many obstacles one might devise to stop abuse, it will be overcome somehow. How many times are things thought of by players that devs never thought of? Trust players to come up with anything and everything to come up with an advantage. Coming up with an advantage through game play is perfectly acceptable. Gaining an advantage because you have more (and therefore also less) money is unacceptable.
just my 2000coppers
I should also mention, i cant tell you how many times that krono brought people back to a game that didnt have to. Otherwise sure ill play if your paying. There is other ways to protect people, from online farming. If your looking for a 1 solution thing keep it on a special ruleset server and we can also decide to transfer there too.
#1 only free transfers of accounts 1 time to a special ruleset server (if added in the future) nothing can be traded to a normal server.
This will not matter to anyone what happens on that special ruleset server. Since it will be governed by you guys only.
The general idea behind Kronos or Plex or whatever you want to call it was a good one. The problem was the distribution and handling of these systems. A means to help those who don`t have the money to sub frequently was a nice thought.
I do however agree that the way it has been handled in the past has destroyed the games. There is however maybe a way to get this done without the issues of turning everything into "gold farming" or basing the Value on the "Kronos/Plex/Whatever"
I think there are ways to combat the issues these provided and will give it some thought on how to suggest a system that does not take away from the game and turn it into a gold farming simulation but still provide the services intended meaning additional funds coming to VR and helping players that don't have all that much money.
My initial ideas:
Have these Krono/Plex on a fixed sales value that cannot be manipulated by the PC Economy
Have a Vendor in-game where you have to turn it into and you get a choice of rewards maybe FOR YOUR CHARACTER ONLY! Limited gold value! The traded Krono/Plex would then be something that an in-game NPC Vendor would put up for sale at a price valued by the game itself.
Buddy Plex/Krono only! Meaning you can purchase these items but only as a gift for someone else ?
I am sure there are ways to help those in need and earn additional funds for those with $ I just haventseen it yet. The gesture behind the idea is nice but like mentioned a plenty it needs to be nonabusive, non exploitable, not game devastating.
I am sure with enough discussion on this something could be worked out.
Regardless the outcome of this i would not miss it if it wasn`t there. But not everything on the matter is negative, there were good intentions behind it i would like to believe that also reward the company by having additional income options.
^Crazzie, It would affect competitive adventurers/raiders on other servers aswell , because "RMT" guilds could progress faster than those guilds of normal servers. It destroys the spirit of fairplay and competition, if one group has an advantage of infinite money. Progression could be faster/trivial on that server, gear guides/information might become available online earlier, etc.
It lessens the feeling of my adventure and my rewards, if they can be bought on other servers with real money. I think in an open world MMORPG like this, nothing is really isolated to any one server, it will bleed and infect other communities/servers. Open world MMORPGs are competitive by their nature, which is why I think this wouldn't work at all in Pantheon.
Yarnila said:The general idea behind Kronos or Plex or whatever you want to call it was a good one. The problem was the distribution and handling of these systems. A means to help those who don`t have the money to sub frequently was a nice thought.
I do however agree that the way it has been handled in the past has destroyed the games. There is however maybe a way to get this done without the issues of turning everything into "gold farming" or basing the Value on the "Kronos/Plex/Whatever"
I think there are ways to combat the issues these provided and will give it some thought on how to suggest a system that does not take away from the game and turn it into a gold farming simulation but still provide the services intended meaning additional funds coming to VR and helping players that don't have all that much money.
My initial ideas:
Have these Krono/Plex on a fixed sales value that cannot be manipulated by the PC Economy
Have a Vendor in-game where you have to turn it into and you get a choice of rewards maybe FOR YOUR CHARACTER ONLY! Limited gold value! The traded Krono/Plex would then be something that an in-game NPC Vendor would put up for sale at a price valued by the game itself.
Buddy Plex/Krono only! Meaning you can purchase these items but only as a gift for someone else ?
I am sure there are ways to help those in need and earn additional funds for those with $ I just haventseen it yet. The gesture behind the idea is nice but like mentioned a plenty it needs to be nonabusive, non exploitable, not game devastating.
I am sure with enough discussion on this something could be worked out.
Regardless the outcome of this i would not miss it if it wasn`t there. But not everything on the matter is negative, there were good intentions behind it i would like to believe that also reward the company by having additional income options.
If VR wanted to have a way to buy game time from in-game items then they can have a NPC that sells gametime for a gold amount. That won't stop gold farmers tho but will add to it as people need gold now and it will deminish the actual total revenue per account as now someone is playing for free.
Thats not the case because they would be doing this for more sales revenue. So they have to have a tradeable item people can buy then sell it in game to others for gold. Theres no way to have a fixed item value for a tradeable item unless the player can buy AND sell them to a NPC for the fixed price. Seeing as the NPC sells them also that allows plex to enter the world without real world money so basically the game could become free to play given enough time and effort is put into farming gold to buy plex from the NPC. If everyone does this VR gets no revenue from subscriptions or plex sales.
So plex would have to come from real money only and be tradeable which means no way to have it a fixed value in game as if someone is selling them below vendor price or buying above vendor price they are losing money.
Aradune said:Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:
An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?
Sometimes called PLEX. Here's how WoW originally described it:
"We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."
I start my comment by casting my vote into the "No" column. I dislike the basic concept of the infusion of RL currency into the game. That being said, your core question remains: "Is there a way for a person to play for free and not have VR lose that subscription fee?"
What if the PLEX item was tradeable only once? Once traded, the PLEX item would be automatically consumed and the recieving player's account would be credited with 1 month of play time. This would ensure that original intent of having PLEX items in the game was being met without having a lot of PLEX items flooding the secondary market. The one downside is that it would be nice if accounts were non-transferable to prevent gold farmers from selling accounts with 2 year subscriptions on the open market. Although, I am not totally sure that that is a bad thing since VR still get the subscription fees paid up front and we get someone to adventure with. But account sales are probably covered on another topic.
Also, the price of the PLEX item to the original buyer should be higher than the price of a 1 month subscription. This can be considered a "handling fee" for VR to perform this transaction. This may be a hardship for people that pay for the accounts of their friends and family, but there are other ways for that to occur instead of running it though VR.
Just my thoughts on the subject since we are tossing ideas around.
To pay for someone, Get a game card or simply a 25-50 dollar credit card from any drugstore. If you cannot hand it to them in person take pics on your cel phone and send it to them. ( you remember the funny story about the kid that posted his gift of a SONY game card on facebook, and realized it was tapped out when he tried to use it because his friends used the number to play for themselves), If they dont have a cell phone but have a phone, Call them and read the information over the phone. If they are in a different time zone, they can wait for your email with the pictures of the front and back. If they dont have email, they can go to the library and log in for free to get the info. If they have no PC and no internet and no phone- miraculous how you got in contact with them, telepathy aside, Snail-mail it. But then again- they could not play for that reason,. no PC.
Does VR need to be in the Game-time selling business? If so, work out a deal with an established disiributor, such as Steam. Grandmothers do it gor Grandchildren all the time. No need for a PLeX/Krono.
This is tough.
Sounds like we're pretty much all in agreement when it comes to not wanting any kind of pay-to-win cash shop, or a Krono/PLEX system, even if it's on an alternative ruleset server, but we all do have to remember that, for Brad and Co, this IS a business and it is their livelihood. Someone mentioned a cash shop with cosmetic options only, and that is something I could get behind - it may worry me (the slippery slope argument), but I could understand the necessity of it.
Perhaps, when we talk about having this shop sell "cosmetic only", we take it even a step further and say it's only for tertiary cosmetic items. That is, not items that our character would wear, but cosmetic additions to other aspects of the game.
Cosmetic items for horses/mounts.
Cosmetic items for in-game housing.
Firework type clickies.
Basically, only things that our characters don't actively wear, and only things that aren't already traded or won through other in-game means. They are ONLY available in the cash-shop, and nowhere else. Nobody can buy something, even a cosmetic item, that I could win in a dungeon or a raid, no matter how small an item it happens to be. That way, these items will still have the prestige attached to them.
The fact that Aradune even brought this up makes me wonder. Are the money-counters of the operation sitting around and wondering, "how are we going to keep the lights on?". Is there a question floating around the VR offices that makes Aradune worry about the viability of Pantheon as a business model? Why bring this up now, of all times?
Maybe there's a reason? Maybe it would behoove us to step-back and think not of what we don't want in the game, but of ways to help VR generate more income without breaking the game.
Is the goal to stop gold farming, or make the game more accessible to those who can't/won't pay a monthly subscription? If the goal is to stop gold farming, I don't think a feature like PLEX is a viable solution. As others have pointed out, it actually reinforces gold-farming behavior. The best way to curb gold selling, in my opinion, is to take a no-nonsense approach in how you deal with offenders. Whether you are buying or selling, it's an automatic ban for both parties. Provide a monthly update to the community and let everybody know exactly how many gold selling/buying accounts have been terminated. I would go so far as to suggest that VR actually set up "bait accounts" where they try to engage in this illegal activity with other players, and ban those who take them up on it. An approach like this would be admirable.
The integrity of the game is important -- just look at sports. If you get caught doing something shady, whether it's deflating the football, creating artificial crowd noise, offering bounties for hurting players, tampering, taking illegal PED's, etc, etc ... there are penalties. We aren't talking 15 yard penalties either ... we are talking about suspending players, fining teams, forfeiting draft picks. You hit them where it counts, and that's in their pocket book. When I see games like PUBG touting how many account bans they are dishing out, I respect it. They make it clear that they don't want hackers/cheaters/exploiters ruining the integrity of their game and showcase a legitimate stance on winning the war against them. That's what we need. We need manpower that is committed, day in and day out, to fighting the good fight.
Tralyan said:This is tough.
Sounds like we're pretty much all in agreement when it comes to not wanting any kind of pay-to-win cash shop, or a Krono/PLEX system, even if it's on an alternative ruleset server, but we all do have to remember that, for Brad and Co, this IS a business and it is their livelihood. Someone mentioned a cash shop with cosmetic options only, and that is something I could get behind - it may worry me (the slippery slope argument), but I could understand the necessity of it.
Perhaps, when we talk about having this shop sell "cosmetic only", we take it even a step further and say it's only for tertiary cosmetic items. That is, not items that our character would wear, but cosmetic additions to other aspects of the game.
Cosmetic items for horses/mounts.
Cosmetic items for in-game housing.
Firework type clickies.
Basically, only things that our characters don't actively wear, and only things that aren't already traded or won through other in-game means. They are ONLY available in the cash-shop, and nowhere else. Nobody can buy something, even a cosmetic item, that I could win in a dungeon or a raid, no matter how small an item it happens to be. That way, these items will still have the prestige attached to them.
The fact that Aradune even brought this up makes me wonder. Are the money-counters of the operation sitting around and wondering, "how are we going to keep the lights on?". Is there a question floating around the VR offices that makes Aradune worry about the viability of Pantheon as a business model? Why bring this up now, of all times?
Maybe there's a reason? Maybe it would behoove us to step-back and think not of what we don't want in the game, but of ways to help VR generate more income without breaking the game.
I was going to make a similar suggestion. You are spot-on, my friend! The reason "skin-selling" is so popular in League of Legends (most successful cash shop of any game ever) is because buying skins is the only way to alter your character experience. It just doesen't work in an MMO without watering down the achievements of others. It works in games that have sessions where you play pre-determined heroes. So ... with that said ... what kind of "mini-game" can Pantheon come out with where something like this could be utilized? Maybe it's the card-back style for an in-game card game? Maybe it's a stationery graphic for in-game mailers? A border for our character bios, or a UI for the guild window? Basically, anything that you can't earn the old-fashioned way in-game, but nothing that gives any "advantage" in the game-world. It could be a set of "arena gear" for folks who fight in the coliseum ... or a "graphic" for a pet that can only be controlled in a mini-game.
@Laeril - Your suggestion of an instantly consumed commodity is really great! It would negate the one of the downsides of PLEX easily and just help the original vision of the mechanic. The other downsides are still there, so I'm not in favor of it being adopted, but a good idea should be given credit whether it's used or not.
@OneADseven - With respect to the bait accounts you suggest - I wonder if a VR employee could use some kind of modified credit card type account (if they exist and are legal?) to go and buy gold and then chargeback after the transaction occurs in game. If they implemented trade tracking, then they might be able to track the money from mule to farmer and ban all the associated accounts. This is all speculation though as I don't know how the gold farming process actually works. I would just think that if you target the accounts used for farming, then you significantly hurt the bottom line of the RMT operation, especially if powerleveling isn't a breeze.
oneADseven said:I would go so far as to suggest that VR actually set up "bait accounts" where they try to engage in this illegal activity with other players, and ban those who take them up on it. An approach like this would be admirable.
Kinda funny. So if VR did this they would only be able to do it from sites like playerauctions because if they tried it in game by trying to sell stuff to people thats called entrapment. If they went thru the 3rd party site, then VR will have to fork up some money before hand just to see what account comes thru with the deal. Is it worth it? How much logging to they have to track gold movement from account to account, also they could have the transaction be off the broker. Example the gold seller gets the cash money for 10k plat then raises a common vendor food item to 10k plat on the trader then VR has to go buy it, again common sense says yeah this is the guy but they would have a defense in saying they wern't the person on the 3rd party website and they just raised it to see if someone would buy it and could be a legal battle not worth having.
The real issue with gold farmers is not really buying and selling gold but them utilizing exploits to get the gold in the first place. I think if VR puts effort into good testing to prevent exploits and good logging to catch zero day exploits then that would be better then them playing spy agents. I'd rather see plex items then VR staff doing back alleys deals and not working on content.
I was very happy to see the strong response against PLEX from the community.
I've seen a few people say, "but cosmetics would be ok."
I want to register my strong opposition to this point. No, cosmetics for real money are not OK. Absolutely not.
In EQ1, when you saw someone who had finally gotten their epic, the fact that the epics were pretty much the only weapons with animations made it like "Damn, that guy is badass, he got his epic!" The cosmetic value is maybe as important as the stat value of items. The cosmetic is a reward for hard work and effort just like good stats on an item are a reward. And I think we should go back to the days where if there is animation on a weapon, it really means something. Not a level 10 Sword of Fire and everyone has one.