Just currious how others feel on this topic.
It has been the normal over the last decade or so to have differnt regeneration speeds or perhaps limitations placed on the player depending on whether or not you are currently marked as IN COMBAT or NOT IN COMBAT.
EG:
- Mana/Health regens at a much higher rate when out of combat vs in combat
- Spells may be in combat only, such as "Combat Resurrection"
Personally I'm not a fan of this, I feel that your regen should be the same in or out of combat and that resurrection spells should be just as available in combat as out of combat.
I'm sure there are many other examples of this in or out of combat behavior others have experienced.
What do you all think?
-Az
Depends on their design goals. They can make it however they want, and it will directly affect their demographic attractant numbers. TTK, recovery time, respawn time, regeneration time are the details that make or break a game. It determines so many things, and almost none of those settings works in isolation.
Personally, I would prefer faster out of combat regen, because if I'm out of combat, it's not fun sitting around doing nothing for extended periods of time. I know there is socializing to be done, yet, I would personally prefer faster health and mana regen than EQ1 TLP currently has. I would also prefer buff timers to only be consumed while in combat, but that's not a popular idea.
On the other hand, health/mana regen in World of Warcraft, currently, is pretty freaking fast. Like.. so fast it might as well just reset to 100% after combat is over without any delay.
So I think there is a grey area where it's not the stupid fast of WoW, but not the punitive of EQ1 TLP.
There's a bunch of mechanics I'm presuming though, and they are: closed set encounters. Limited spells/skills in combat. Endurance (not mana, not health) regen will be within 80% of what's been demonstrated. You won't automatically be in combat if someone in your group is, and you won't automatically be placed in combat if a creature aggros you, but rather only if you specifically negatively affect it.
Given there's no guarantees any of that will be true, it's all theorycrafting at this point, and VR has never been transparent in their communication of specifics like this.
Don't like it, don't want it. Health/mana/endurance regeneration should be the same at all times, if they want to limit things being used in combat like ressurection then they should just make it prohibitive like giving it a long cast time (long enough that others might die), huge mana cost, and/or extremely high threat just by beginning the cast so all mobs charge the caster.
Having faster out of combat recovery is a detriment to the importance resource management, the faster it is the worse the impact.
I'm a bigger fan of sitting/standing being the only (non-buff) factor that changes the rates instead of combat/non-combat.
I'll go with vjek on this one.
Not regenerating in combat or slow regeneration makes sense to me. Adds to the challenge of the fight and gives more value to classes that can heal or transfer power to those in need.
After combat it just adds tedium - unless you can get fast regeneration of health/power with food and drinks in which case it adds more inventory management and expense but at least benefits the crafters - assuming these are craftable items.
I think faster Out of Combat regen should occur, but agree with vjek that it should be balanced out, not that there is no downtime but not having to sit for 10 minuts doing nothing. Testing comes to play here. I'm not in disagreement with Iksar that tying it to sitting/standing is a better method.
I also don't like having many abilities on extremely long cooldowns or really short durations. If I am buffed, I don't want to have to get re-buffed 5 minutes later (unless I died). An ability that has a 30min cooldown isn't likely to get on my bar, especially if the bar has a limited number of slots. There are exceptions, of course. Things like lay on hands and a Monk's mend, shouldn't be available every 30sec either (at least not without trade-offs). And having a self-buff that has a 20sec cooldown, 15sec duration is, in my opinion, annoying.
I'm also for different races and classes having different base regen rates on mana, stamina, etc. Though the range of difference shouldn't be game-breaking levels. Vjek is spot on inregards to the fact that it depends on the design goals and the desired audience. It also depends on testing and what, in the end, reaches those goals.
Liav said:It's irrelevant how it works in the end because downtime is relative.
Mostly that... BUT...
It sort of makes sense that you would recover quicker when resting, right? Go running - when you start to get tired, try to recoup energy while running. Then sit down for a few minutes. Which is faster?
Wandidar said:Mostly that... BUT...
It sort of makes sense that you would recover quicker when resting, right? Go running - when you start to get tired, try to recoup energy while running. Then sit down for a few minutes. Which is faster?
A more apt analogy here would be: Go chop down a tree, when you start to get tired stop swinging and have a rest to get some energy. Need to regen mana? Stop spending it and chill out or meditate about it for a bit, don't have to be out of combat for that unless you are the one being spanked.
Liav said:It's irrelevant how it works in the end because downtime is relative.
Very true. People also forget that they can dictate to a great degree their downtime by altering group composition and spawn manipulation to name a few. A good group can pretty much eliminate downtime. Of course this does become easier as you level.
In EverQuest, if I remember correctly, you had a single mana/hp regen rate per tick as a base. That could be modified.
- If you were sitting, you got a boost.
- If you were hungry/thirsty, the rates took a hit.
- If you were under the effect of a buff (like clarity), the rates increased
- For mana, specifically, your meditate skill came into play for it.
- I believe there might have been some other skills or race/class modifiers, but that was it.
When the WoW/EQ2 generation of games came out, one of the complaints that those games tried to address was "we hate having to sit around after a fight waiting to regen our hp/mana! Let us get back in the action faster!" So, those games started implementing the "out of combat" state switch, where regen rates were boosted when you were out of combat. Future games continued (and even accelerated, in some cases) the trend.
The problem with doing this wasn't the out of combat switch itself, but it was the side effect of shortening the amount of time players needed between fights. The designers of the day failed to realize (or maybe just failed to prioritize) the fact that the need to regen health and mana was giving players an opportunity to socialize with each other - and that taking that away would negatively impact the formation of communities in-game.
I'm not posting this to say that an in-combat/out-of-combat state switch is a good or a bad thing - it's honestly just a tool in the toolbox, and sometimes it might make sense to use that tool.. However, I think we need to consider what Pantheon is trying to achieve in terms of building a social game where communities and groups matter.
So two questions I think we should all ask ourselves:
First - Do we, as players, feel that it's important that the game give us some forced "downtime" while we're grouping, whether that takes the form of waiting for hp/mana, waiting for acclimation, memorizing new spells or abilities, or just waiting for a respawn? Does that give us opportunities to socialize that we, or others, wouldn't take otherwise? Or, is this time just time that we're going to afk and watch YouTube videos while we ignore the people we're grouped with, and so it's really just a wasted effort?
Second - from a challenge perspective, do we want a game where we potentially start every fight at full health/mana, and the fight that happened before that one hasn't affected us? Or, do we want a game where if we just got out of a really tough fight, we might need to play it safe for a few minutes until we're ready for the next really tough one?
I know how I'd answer these questions (yes to having to take more than a few seconds to regen hp/mana between fights) - but I have to remind myself that I'm a dinosaur waiting for a meteor, sometimes. What about the rest of you? :)
Nephele said:The problem with doing this wasn't the out of combat switch itself, but it was the side effect of shortening the amount of time players needed between fights. The designers of the day failed to realize (or maybe just failed to prioritize) the fact that the need to regen health and mana was giving players an opportunity to socialize with each other - and that taking that away would negatively impact the formation of communities in-game.
I'm not posting this to say that an in-combat/out-of-combat state switch is a good or a bad thing - it's honestly just a tool in the toolbox, and sometimes it might make sense to use that tool.. However, I think we need to consider what Pantheon is trying to achieve in terms of building a social game where communities and groups matter.
So two questions I think we should all ask ourselves:
First - Do we, as players, feel that it's important that the game give us some forced "downtime" while we're grouping, whether that takes the form of waiting for hp/mana, waiting for acclimation, memorizing new spells or abilities, or just waiting for a respawn? Does that give us opportunities to socialize that we, or others, wouldn't take otherwise? Or, is this time just time that we're going to afk and watch YouTube videos while we ignore the people we're grouped with, and so it's really just a wasted effort?
Second - from a challenge perspective, do we want a game where we potentially start every fight at full health/mana, and the fight that happened before that one hasn't affected us? Or, do we want a game where if we just got out of a really tough fight, we might need to play it safe for a few minutes until we're ready for the next really tough one?
I know how I'd answer these questions (yes to having to take more than a few seconds to regen hp/mana between fights) - but I have to remind myself that I'm a dinosaur waiting for a meteor, sometimes. What about the rest of you? :)
I really feel the bigger issue is reduced downtime means reduced necessity to manage resources well. So yes for some forced downtime and yes to having to consider what is next after a fight, not just spring back to health rapidly. Are we safe? Is there a patrol coming? Will repops happen soon? Should we rest a bit before going into the next room? Can we afford to pull one more with the healer at 30% mana?
It doesn't have to be the 7+ minutes it took to med to full like EQ. I feel 4 minutes (3 with clarity) wouldn't be so bad when going from 0 to 100%, as long as you can kill a decent amount in between.
When you have some form of mana regen in group and you manage your mana well downtime can be almost non-existent anyway.
I suppose a slightly faster base regen rate than EQ had would be good for those times when you do not have group support for it.
Especially in the health regen department, if your a war with a billion HP, it can take a very long time to regen, which makes them completely dependant on a healer to xp at a decent rate.
But then I think back, and even had this happen tonight on P99.
- Playing chanter, charmed and hasted pet with duel wield weapons of course, had big pull, got it locked down but pet broke and one shotted me litterally.
- Soo, got rezed, group was still fighting the train and I had no mana
- Necro we had with us started transfering his mana to me so I could get buffs going again and charm a new pet.
- Put up a mana tap spell and we proceeded into the depths of Chardok
- Without ever stopping I was back to full mana after about 5 taps of various mobs, all while rebuffing everyone, mezing mobs and handling the new pet.
Point is, P99 doesn't have fast regen by any means but there are ways to deal with it that give meaningful game play.
-Az
EQ added the enhanced regeneration when out of combat (OOC) and I didn't mind it. I don't think it made soloing easier because you still had to deal more DPS than you took which was not in your favor in EQ except for certain classes. However, it did turn 10 minutes of downtime between fighting into only a few minutes which I think is much more reasonable. In fact, sometimes I would walk away and be surprised to return at full health -- I was just use to taking more time between fights.
I would prefer the newer EQ style OOC regen system over one, say like Vanguard, which I think was too fast.
Iksar said:It doesn't have to be the 7+ minutes it took to med to full like EQ. I feel 4 minutes (3 with clarity) wouldn't be so bad when going from 0 to 100%, as long as you can kill a decent amount in between.
Exactly. Breaks now and then are fine, but having to stop for several minutes after every other mob is going to get boring very quickly.
I look at it from a competitive angle. I think the baseline should be groups experience a significant amount of downtime. This gives the group, who maybe isn't the strongest on paper, but has exceptional resource management skills, an opportunity to distinguish themselves from others.
The "standard" amount of downtime shouldn't be crushing, but should leave some room for encouragement of improved tactics.
corpserunner said:
The "standard" amount of downtime shouldn't be crushing, but should leave some room for encouragement of improved tactics.
I think you make an important note, players need to be motivated to improve themselves, or atleast have the feel there is more to it, or feel there can be gained something extra from doing things differently.
If mana, health, whatever is always just a bit short, then it would be an extra adventure to explore.
No group downtime did not amount to no individual downtime. In fact, no group downtime more or less amounted to a group where everyone played efficiently enough to allow group members that needed downtime (casters and healers) enough downtime to keep going without running out of mana.
I think in a game that wants to be community based - there needs to be some planned downtime baked into groups because that is a time within the game that you should really want time to interact. A nod needs to be given to the notion that not everyone will want to do voice. In fact, in normal groups, I would expect that outside of a circle of friends, many people won't want to. To that end, the game needs at least SOME time for folks to chat built in.
Does that mean that there needs to be time where the group will be stopped with no way to mitigate that stoppage if the group is able to?
No - it means that each player needs time within the group context to be able to do their role AND type back and forth with the people in the group. For example, in that efficient group mentioned above, while a caster is medding to maintain mana within that efficient group - they can be typing. Whoever is doing CC might have time between "gotta mez that mob" to type. Pullers might have moments where they are not out pulling because of kill pace of the group... etc...
Then, of course, the whole group may have times when they invariably DO hit a moment where lack of resources (mana) require them to stop a minute or two.
I personally see excessive downtime as overrated. What constitutes excessive is obviously very subjective.
What was accomplished with it in EQ? Extreme punishment for suboptimal group compositions? A secondary artificial time-gating effect on progression? A combination of both, or more?
When one heal cost 15% of your mana early on in EQ, and that 15% took 3 minutes to regenerate, I think things have gone way too far. I would rather not see downtime play such a huge role in Pantheon the way it did in early EQ.
Liav said:I personally see excessive downtime as overrated. What constitutes excessive is obviously very subjective.
What was accomplished with it in EQ? Extreme punishment for suboptimal group compositions? A secondary artificial time-gating effect on progression? A combination of both, or more?
When one heal cost 15% of your mana early on in EQ, and that 15% took 3 minutes to regenerate, I think things have gone way too far. I would rather not see downtime play such a huge role in Pantheon the way it did in early EQ.
Agreed.
There is a difference between having enough time to communicate via type without feeling rushed and enough time to write war and peace. I think typing at each other should be a natural part of game play that people feel like they are able to do... I think sitting X of every Y minutes because the game makes you do it is bad.
I think it's fine to have some downtime during long grind sessions, but players should be able to mitigate it in a variety of ways. The first thing that comes to mind would be support classes. Bards/Enchanters have always been "mana batteries" and I feel that their ability to contribute toward group sustain is a core piece of their class identity. I think it's reasonable that other classes also get some form of mana-sustain but it should never compete with the bards/enchanters. Summoners/Necromancers might be able to give shards/hearts to their group that can be used for a small burst of mana infusion. Shamans might be able to put a debuff on mobs that saps their mana, or perhaps be able to harvest corpses to absorb whatever life essence is left over. Druids should have options depending on the terrain. Rangers might be able to forage and unearth helpful consumables. Wizards should have some form of mana manipulation, but it should take time to utilize it. Having high quality food/drink/consumables should also help alleviate extended periods of rest. I am all for "meaningful downtime" such as travel time, swapping to situational gear, adjusting hotbars, or anything that can be characterized as "preparation" before an upcoming battle. Going back to town to sell your goods or visit a class trainer is also fine. Crippling a team because they don't have a mana battery probably isn't ideal ... I'd rather see it where having support classes enable a healthier pace, but never to the point where players are repeatedly tabbing out for extended durations if they don't have one.
I'm not a fan of Different rates of Health/Mana regen based on combat status.
This type of Resource Management is another aspect of the game that contributes to the "group centric" theme of Pantheon. Relying on others to regain health/mana is huge insentive for grouping. By implememnting Out of Combat Regen, you remove that insentive and take a step toward player independence (soloing).
I see concerns about taking too long to "med to full" after killing a couple mobs. I dont think that arguments holds water. First off, if your burning thru all your mana in a couple fights, your'e probably playing your character poorly. Learning to manage your mana/resource is a priority in playing your character properly. Secondly, if youre in a group, there is rarely a need to "med to full". Thats the beauty of the group. If one person needs to rest, the others can pick up the slack. The only time "Med to Full" is required is when you're getting ready for a raid.
Give me Bind Wound to help health regen. Give me Meditate for Mana Regen. Buffs, Songs, Spells, Wands, food and drink. Theres plenty of ways to increase your regen without implementing a mechanic that helps reduce your depedence on other players. Dont have the game do what the player community should be doing.
Liav said:I personally see excessive downtime as overrated. What constitutes excessive is obviously very subjective.
What was accomplished with it in EQ? Extreme punishment for suboptimal group compositions? A secondary artificial time-gating effect on progression? A combination of both, or more?
When one heal cost 15% of your mana early on in EQ, and that 15% took 3 minutes to regenerate, I think things have gone way too far. I would rather not see downtime play such a huge role in Pantheon the way it did in early EQ.
this...
Homercles said:I'm not a fan of Different rates of Health/Mana regen based on combat status.
This type of Resource Management is another aspect of the game that contributes to the "group centric" theme of Pantheon. Relying on others to regain health/mana is huge insentive for grouping. By implememnting Out of Combat Regen, you remove that insentive and take a step toward player independence (soloing).
I see concerns about taking too long to "med to full" after killing a couple mobs. I dont think that arguments holds water. First off, if your burning thru all your mana in a couple fights, your'e probably playing your character poorly. Learning to manage your mana/resource is a priority in playing your character properly. Secondly, if youre in a group, there is rarely a need to "med to full". Thats the beauty of the group. If one person needs to rest, the others can pick up the slack. The only time "Med to Full" is required is when you're getting ready for a raid.
Give me Bind Wound to help health regen. Give me Meditate for Mana Regen. Buffs, Songs, food and drink. Theres plenty of ways to increase your regen without implementing a mechanic that helps reduce your depedence on other players. Dont have the game do what the player community should be doing.
There is a distinction between what happens in group and what happens solo. I think that groups should be able to work together to mitigate downtime... which implies that there is downtime to mitigate. When you are solo, not having that group around you to mitigate downtime - means that you would be reduced to only the means you personally have at hand... and that you are probably subject to more downtime solo than you are if you are grouping.
To me, that's a component of what makes solo less efficient.
Groups will also have room for 6 players at best. How is someone else supposed to pick up the slack when your only healer is oom, provided you will probably only have one? How terrible is it going to feel to be in a group without an Enchanter? How terrible is it going to feel when your healer has to spend 30 minutes gating, getting a mana regen buff, and running back because it's the only viable way to group in difficult content?
I do not believe that downtime incentivizes grouping much on its own. It incentivizes grouping with a class that has a mana regen buff.
Downtime is an EQ thing. Not a "necessary to incentivize grouping" thing, otherwise you're implying that in other games no one is incentivized to group because downtime wasn't as much of a factor. I would advise spending some extra time considering the truth of that.