I would like to see events for both small groups 3-12, and for groups of 12-24+. Need some drive to work together.
FFXI had events that supported up to 36 players (two alliance of 18); We were only ever able to cap these things out in the high population days.
EXP -> Party based 1-6
Mission/Quests -> Party Based 1-6
Final Mission Fights/End of the Questline -> Party based 1-6, also allowing two or three parties to band together and take this on.
Treasure Fights -> FFXI had many of these called "Burning Circle" battles, they supported groups of 3, 6, and 18. Depending on the fight, and some capped you at specific level upon entry. The golden days of having Lv30/40/50/60 gear sets just for BCNM fights, before Level sync and gear scaling on sync was introduced.
Dynamis had a cap of 36, two full alliances of 18.
Original Dynamis, a guild would reserve the zone just for them and up to 36 could enter as long as they had an hourglass, and a 72 hour lockout before re-entry.
After Abyssea dynamis was re-worked, and made to an open zone that all players are able to freely enter (after a little quest) on a daily basis for 2 hours.
After Rhapsodies came out with further questing you can enter dynamis w/o any limitations.
I feel the same as others that have stated that all three types of game content are important. Different personalities and even different moods can determine how a person wants to play. With that being said, the ask is what priorities I would put on group styles, I would say:
40% solo (because I like to know how to play the game and my class effectively before having others rely on me, and relying on others all of the time builds a weak player - IMO)
40% group (because the risk vs reward and synergy are needed in an MMO, can be fun and its a great social experience (usually) but potentially requires time that not everyone can commit to on a regular basis depending on how the group content is)
20% raid (because I understand the importance of it in any MMO - players need to be challenged, not just in bringing together many people in a virtual environment, but in balancing their actual lives which makes the risk (or in this case sacrifice) vs reward that much greater when sacrificing real world commitments).
%% - Something that would also improve player longevity would be some type of battle ground or arena with a world objective for those times where there are either no raids available or you just don't have time to do a dungeon.
@Liav and @oneADseven; what do you think about my 2 group design proposal on page 5? I thought it was a decent, rough-draft design. You two provide consisent critique to many topics of discussion, so I thought I'd have the best chance at a thorough response if I asked you guys. Don't be gentle ; )
Zuljan said:@Liav and @oneADseven; what do you think about my 2 group design proposal on page 5? I thought it was a decent, rough-draft design. You two provide consisent critique to many topics of discussion, so I thought I'd have the best chance at a thorough response if I asked you guys. Don't be gentle ; )
I think it's a great idea. Pantheon has been touted as a group-centric game that is looking to bring back the value of meeting other people in the world, interacting with them, and working together. I think having a consistent flux of X2 content-rich areas would be amazing. It would add more danger to the world as well as an additional incentive for people to interact and team up. For some reason, I don't really consider X2 content "raid content." It's just two groups working together and something like that sounds perfectly aligned and even complimentary with the "group centric" vision for this game. Something like this would also be very appealing for the hardcore raider types ... it's not quite raid content, but it could be another great resource to help the guild actually feel like a guild outside of raids. One concern I have with loads and loads of group content is that I am not able to interact with the majority of my guild while doing group content.
Very rarely would it make sense for me to group with other tanks, or healers/DPS outside of my regular or "static" group. X2 content would allow me to play with other players/groups that I otherwise wouldn't be able to outside of raiding. All in all I think there is some incredible merit in your proposal and sincerely hope the dev team takes a look at it. Additionally, just like some solo players could be capable of killing small group content, I imagine some single groups being able to tackle this X2 content. This would be an absolute stud in diversifying the risk vs reward of the world. Whether I would be attempting this content with 1 group or 2 doesen't really matter, I would just be happy to know that it's there. The more the better. If it's getting 2 groups to link up to just kill something and then part ways ... bleh. I would like to see sizable patches of X2 content where people can work together for an extended period of time. This is one of my favorite community generated ideas that I have seen on this forum. Thank you.
Zuljan said:Just wanted to add I think it'd be innovative and enjoyable to design some 2 group content. This has never been done and has a lot of inherent advantages over leaping from 1 group content all the way up to 4 group raiding with no inbetween. Two group content would offer a really fresh break from the 1 group content we'll be frequented with, offers more challenge/reward than single group, and is also really accessible (PUGs will fire off pretty quickly/easily no matter what time of day if it's only 2 groups needed). I think this would be a really happy medium and easy to assimilate/scale with the other local, group content in a given zone.
If you implemented a lot of the 2 group content in areas with existing 1 group content, then random groups clearing/exp camping the same areas could then come together quite easily as they pass one another during clearing or do a simple /who in the zone or lfg call. And if it's really early/late, your group could just camp an area and grind until another group comes along, to which you can offer to combine groups to take down some 2 group content (also a great way to meet new people and socialize). Beyond 2 groups, it becomes (mathematically) logistically or even exponentially harder to accomplish such easy combining of groups to take down advanced content (when class roles and their respective frequencies are broken down on paper).
3-6 person, 1 group content - 75% (some small % of this will innately be soloable regrdless of design intent in addition to the random neutral animals that will be soloable, so I didn't include a solo value)
2 group content - 15%
4-7 group content- 9%
large scale 70ish man content with a sleeper-esque script - 1%
Just showing the numbers you have:
6man = 75%
12man = 15%
24-42man = 9%
70+man = 1%
So for me anything over 1 group is about the same. Meaning you can break that 25% of what I would call Raid content down in 100 different ways, but in the end it will all be the same to me. Why? Well at first a Raid may take 24 members, but over time with gear and experience I'm sure more and more will attempt to do it with only 18. So if we were to make 12 man raids then I'm sure it will be done by 6 at one point or another. In the end I think its just to difficult to try and balance that out. Designing a dungeon for 6 man groups and designing a raid for 30 man groups are huge gaps. These gaps won't be merged easily, but designing a Raid for 12 man groups could get blurry and very hard to balance right. I guess I would rather see it be 6 man content or 30+ man content myself.
After its all said and done. I want to see a game built on 3-6 groups with certain content that requires 30+. If something is built for 3 man groups i'm sure it will be Solo'd afterwhile, but still there is no need to design anything with solo in mind. Just deisgn for small groups and let those who can solo do it. Only thing I want to do solo is Fish, Sell, Trade, and maybe Craft, or just sit around in the Town talking to folks :). Just my two cents.
I too very much enjoy 2-3 group content.
So much so that I would like to see exp camps tuned for 2+ groups.
These type of camps have the added benefit of extending content. They turn into 1 group camps an expansion later once a players overall power has improved.
3-6 person 1st: a game designed to Group needs a LOT of group content.
Solo 2nd: (i know it's a group game) but i'd rather be able to solo vs.: Group, or don't play at all.
Raid stuff last. raids can be added AFTER people are max level.
Naim said:
Raid stuff last. raids can be added AFTER people are max level.
Depends on how long it takes to level. I know they want leveling to be meaningful but if people fly through the levels then there will be nothing to do.
Most of the newer games die because there is not enough end content. Even WoW has that problem with new expansions/updates. When the new updates come out, a lot of people come back to play but it only lasts for 1-3 months and the population decreases a ton after they finish the content.
I like the "x2" idea a lot. I expressed a similar preference for zones with content tuned for 18-24 players, which a really strong group of 8-10 could also attempt. As onead said, it is often nice, as a tank or healer, to get the opportunity to group with and coordinate with another tank or healer, but in a more group-like setting and not a big raid. The "x2" or x3 zones could work just like normal zones, with trash mobs and names spawns. Maybe the loot is slightly better than normal group loot, although not by too much.
How did we go from letting the dev's know what we would prefer, in answer to the question, to a nerdfest arguments over the last page and half on whether or not we should have or how strong solo content would be?
There is and will be solo content already been stated the question posed in this post was would you prefer focus on 3-6man content or 24+ raid content....
Xan
Group>Raid>Solo
The major part i am interested in this game is that it was stated it was going to be community centered and very hard to solo. For those times that I can't find a group that is when i will crafting and harvesting.
@Kilsin lots of people in the Facebook Pantheon group I am in are scared that the solo thing was even brought up...Hopefully you did not stir the pot too much that it will have a detrimental effect on how people are looking at the game.
dorotea said:To respond to some of the comments in favor of having NO content designed to be soloable (though they don't object if some classes can beat the system and solo it anyway).
1. This is a game focused on socialization and grouping - 100% agreed.
2. Modern MMos make it far too easy to get good gear and reach level cap solo - 100% agreed.
3. This is intended as a niche game not something that appeals to everyone - 100% agreed.
4. If you can suceeed readily by soloing many people will do so, and it will be harder for those of us that want a group game and pledged because this was to be a group game to actually get groups. 100% agreed.
There - killed a bunch of strawman arguments. Solod them. But that is OK I got no experience or gear for my efforts.
In case I wasn't clear enough - I want a group-centered game where going solo is a distinctly inferior way to get experience or gear. My only difference of opinion with the people disagreeing with my comments is that I want a safety valve - something we can do when we are unable or unwilling to group - that will give inferior experience and inferior coin/gear. But on the basic purpose and thrust of Pantheon I think we are all in general agreement.
Dorotea,
I would be one that fits into your first statement, as I don't want solo content to be created by design, but rather by emergent gameplay (which leads to some classes being able to solo better than others) and I wish that all classes could solo equally through emergent gameplay; however, if group interdependency exists in an MMORPG - it will just not be the case. And, I'm pretty sure we are in more agreement than disagreement - we just see how to get to the finish line differently. I'll try to explain my reasoning...
If a class like a Warrior can solo similar to a class like a Summoner or Necromancer, then you have fast regeneration outside of combat and/or blurring of class lines through allowing the warrior skills in combat for survival/utility and/or DPS. The reason why I would be "ok" with a necromancer soloing better than a warrior is because the downtime is necessary to create strategy within combat. Perhaps not the /10 minutes to full regen or whatever EQ launch was, but, some level of downtime is necessary to encourage grouping and creating strategy in combat and in group combat itself. If you allow all classes equal or close to equal ability to solo, then you will have the spamming ability rotations/DPS races/endless resource pools. There will be no real reason for Crowd Control etc. as you can burn through resources, fast regen, and be ready for the next fight. I want classes built around what they can bring and how they mesh in a group, not skillsets created for solo combat.
So, when I discuss that I don't want to have soloing by design, it has nothing to do with caring that people can solo as I've stated in the other active solo thread, if people find a way, or some classes are better than others - so be it - I solo as well in my downtime, waiting for groups, but I am aganist it by design for what the repercussions/ripple effects are to the rest of gameplay by having all classes being able to do so equally, and having content created for it. And, I say all this as I would benefit from more solo content as my current life obligations are demanding, but, I wouldn't want to sacrifice a great game based off my obligations.
My first choice would be 3-6 member content, 2nd would be Raid content and last is solo.
Getting a group of 3-6 player content should be quick and easy to put together and simple to manage.
Raid content will be an event thats most likley scheduled within the guild and require a small amount of planning, unless its a world spawn where we just gather up the troops and head out.
Solo content will be my filler time when I can't find a group or nothing is happening.
I won't say a word about solo versus group versus raid - repeating opinions doesn't make them stronger - more likely the opposite.
I completely agree that classes should not be fungible. I completely agree that a class good at one role should be weaker at others. I completely agree that this both should and will make some classes better at soloing than others. If I create a healer I will have no legitimate complaint that she cannot kill even a normal mob slightly below her level very efficiently. Likewise if I create a tank. If I create a pet class that can kill enemies of higher level with comparative safety I will have no legitimate complaint that she doesn't contribute quite as much to a group as some other classes might. Trade-offs are absolutely necessary so that no class is clearly better than the others. Each class must (and will) have both strengths and compensating weaknesses.
So on the topic of how well classes should be able to solo I agree with Raidan in all respects.
I would like the majority of content to focus on a full group. Additionally, I would like a fair amount of it to be complex and difficult. While I do enjoy raids, getting that many people is much harder than getting a single group together. Having some fairly long, raid style single group content would be amazing.
At the same time there DOES need to be some solo content (since you cant group all the time) and there should be a raid or two (because its fun).
If I could choose between having more solo content, 3-6 person dungeons or 24+ person raids in an MMORPG I would choose 3-6 person dungeons (and encounters/camps). The reason is really quite simple: I miss playing with others in group content. I know there are other games where you can group but it just seems like no one does and no one bothers and no one has to - probably because the social aspect isn't a criteria or even a necessity in other games I have tried (and I will admit I haven't tried all of them so there may be something out there I am missing). I just love the dynamic of engaging in a playing session and socializing while doing so. Kind of like playing cards or boardgames or even the old days of D&D. I just miss it and am looking forward to it.
So, that is not to say to abandon the content development regarding solo or 24+ person raids in a MMORPG. I am simply answering the question of if I could choose and what I would choose is more 3-6 person duncgeons.
Insomnium said:Depends on how long it takes to level. I know they want leveling to be meaningful but if people fly through the levels then there will be nothing to do.
Most of the newer games die because there is not enough end content. Even WoW has that problem with new expansions/updates. When the new updates come out, a lot of people come back to play but it only lasts for 1-3 months and the population decreases a ton after they finish the content.
Important to note that a large part of the reason current MMOs struggle after a 1-3 months is due to instancing, loot tokens, individual player loot catered to the player's specific class/spec, and bonus rolls with a safety net that counters bad luck streaks.
All 3 are definitely important.
Solo content doesn't have to be in depth, but it should be plentiful enough that folks can log on for 30 minutes and do something. I welcome the fact that Pantheon is going to be more hardcore, and that entails grouping up, but there will be times when folks only have time for a quick hit.
Group content should be the bulk of the gaming content. This is why we play MMOs instead of single player RPGs. There has to be enough to avoid "camp checks". It would be nice if there was small group (2/3 players) and full group (5/6 players) content, but I'm going to assume small groups can just stick to doing full group content slightly below their level.
Raid content should be plentiful enough that guilds can raid a different target 3-5 nights per week. VG's lockout timers were a pretty good solution to handling contested raid mobs without relying on instances.
At the end of the day, there must be benefits to full group play, and almost zero drawbacks. Group play must provide more experience, better loot and access to more exciting areas than solo play. Solo play should be limited to something folks do while they look for a group or if they only have a short amount of time to play. The moment they can play for ~1 hour or find someone to group with, the incentives for grouping must be so attractive they would never choose to remain solo.
Oh, I thought of 1 good instance of content specifically designed and likely limited to solo-only: class feats.
In vanilla WoW one of my favorite feats of skill was the hunter epic weapon quest. You had to solo 4 different demons with unique mechanics using different abilities/techniques core to hunters. One you had to pretty much skirmish doing 95% melee with occational backing off to reapply a ranged debuff & avoid a massive engrage hit. The second you had to keep it's pet trapped while focusing on both meleeing the demon and mixing in interrupts for her spells and mana drain shots when you could fit them in. The third you had to keep immobile using a specific melee ability every time he got near then he summoned lots of beetles that hit like trucks & would chase you relentlessly while you'd try to strafe around the boss kiting the beetles as best you could throwing an aoe at the beetles once too many were summoned. The final you had to kite perfectly since if you went too far ahead he would reset but if he got too close you'd be hit with a doom spell so there was a sweet spot you had to keep and the best (only?) way to really do it was doing jump shots (jump, spin 180 + hit with ranged DoT ability, spin 180 to land facing the original direction) to keep your momentum. If anyone tried to help at all the encounters would reset, no one could heal or buff you nor damage the demons once started. They were tuned to be very unforgiving, one mistake and most people wiped.
I think it would be great to see something similar for classes in Pantheon at max level for some kind of class specific item, spell/ability, or maybe even special living codex spell modifier.