Liav said:jpedrote said:I think there's a global cooldown, in the last monk stream, whenever Cohh used attack all the other buttons were greyed out and returned to normal colour 0.5 secs later. But I don't see how global cooldowns lead to rotations? I don't believe there will be rotations in Pantheon, from what I've seen melee classes use stamina as the main resource for using attacks , (guesstimating here) I think melee dmg will be a constant minigame of balancing your stamina bar, where you'll have periods of high activity burst dmg, and period of lower activity to build your stamina back up so you can burst again when needed, or you can choose to keep a steady pace until the stamina runs out. Not enterely sure of what I'm saying here because on the December 2016 stream the rogue stamina bar seemed to regenerate very slowly but the attacks didn't consume much stamina, but in the newer streams (April 2017 and the Twichcon stream) the Warrior and Monk stamina bar was regening really fast but the attack consumed large chunks of stamina, so the gameplay I described might apply only to the rogue or it might not even exist now that stamina regeneration and consumption was changed.
Also if there's no gobal cooldown then you can use all you skills at the same time, that doesn't make much sense, using 5+ damaging skills in the same moment to burst is not and ideal game mechanic and it would make attack animations quite awkward.
You're right, actually. Vanguard had GCD and rotations weren't a thing. Part of that was because of chain abilities and reactions though.
In a game like World of Warcraft, RIFT, etc. you generally have macros with a ton of things stuck together so you do a very simple 1-1-1-2-3 type of rotation without many hiccups.
I prefer having all of my cooldowns independent of eachother, like EQ or EQ2.
2 things. 1, the large scale macro fest that infested most dps classes later on in wow was due to the extremely advanced macro system wow had as well as how much they streamlined alot of the dps classes. There were some dps classes who's abilities required procs or whatnot in order to maximize efficiency and couldn't have a 1 1 2 3 rotation.
Also, you mentioned earlier how you does want someone to stand behind a mob and do nothing to achieve 95% of their damage, and while i understand you were exaggerating, at most in wow auto attack would account for ~50%, which still leaves alot to be desired . This is where the community comes in. If someone is sitting there at 50 dps when every other rogue is doing 100... well someone needs to have a conversation with this young man and find out where the discrepancy lies..
Tralyan said:Gotcha, and agreed, although personally I would enjoy a 50/50 role in mechanical vs auto-attack for the reasons listed above.
Vanguard did a good job with skills, and the ability to create macros that activated a multitude of skills at once that didn't share global cooldowns was a great idea. The chained attacks, as well, made it less about just a rotation and forced you to pay more attention to combat. Hopefully Pantheon follows something along these lines.
VG Skillsets + EQ Resource management would be my perfect 50/50. And to the OP's point - I think it would play into having classes like monks with lighter armor ability being able to do more damage through auto attacks with double, triple, quadruple attacks/kicks, but a class like a warrior could do burst damage for one fight maybe similar to a monk DPS if they wanted to burn through all their endurance/stamina (whatever the resource is) but not have the consistent sustained DPS that a monk would have. Create strategy and situational combat with more opportunity to see player skill (and not just through reaction time but intelligence/experience on managing resources).
What scares me about double+ attacks can be summed up by the DnD 4e ranger. Basically you could get a bunch of modifiers to your attack, and becuase you attack twice or more, apply those modifiers twice or more. So if you poisoned your weapon to deal +5 damage, you would now deal +10 damage.
Take out the ability of 2x attacks to double apply modifiers and various attack buffs and I think they are a very fun thing to have, though.
P.S. No offense to all of you in the "auto attack, cds, and skill" derailment on this thread, but as a lover of demon/dark souls I have to say that auto attack/cd based fight systems take no skill. So what if you can stare at your action bar and count good? I want to see situations where you are casting counterspells, actively dodging/parrying, deciding NOT to attack for some reason, or timing combos with other players.
I don't think anyone is derailing this thread, but I'll go ahead and laugh at the assertion that games with auto attack/cooldown based combat take no skill.
Dark Souls isn't that hard, the game just has a high learning curve. This isn't an action combat game, nor does it have to be one for it to be challenging. Your average FFXIV/WoW raid is far more demanding than an experienced Dark Souls player memorizing movesets so they know how to dodge things.
This is coming from someone who has PvP'd extensively in both Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3.
BeaverBiscuit said:What scares me about double+ attacks can be summed up by the DnD 4e ranger. Basically you could get a bunch of modifiers to your attack, and becuase you attack twice or more, apply those modifiers twice or more. So if you poisoned your weapon to deal +5 damage, you would now deal +10 damage.
Take out the ability of 2x attacks to double apply modifiers and various attack buffs and I think they are a very fun thing to have, though.
P.S. No offense to all of you in the "auto attack, cds, and skill" derailment on this thread, but as a lover of demon/dark souls I have to say that auto attack/cd based fight systems take no skill. So what if you can stare at your action bar and count good? I want to see situations where you are casting counterspells, actively dodging/parrying, deciding NOT to attack for some reason, or timing combos with other players.
Actually, I think having something proc multiple times due to multi attacking is fairly balanced. I'm not sure how things worked in EQ so my experience may be different. In my experience, things like poison didn't stack, so even if you got off 2 arrows with posion on it the mob wouldnt have a double poison effect. However if you say used something to drain health, using 2 health draining arrows would have the intended result of draining health 2 times. Things like that didn't seem any bit overpowered to me.
Grimix said:Actually, I think having something proc multiple times due to multi attacking is fairly balanced. I'm not sure how things worked in EQ so my experience may be different. In my experience, things like poison didn't stack, so even if you got off 2 arrows with posion on it the mob wouldnt have a double poison effect. However if you say used something to drain health, using 2 health draining arrows would have the intended result of draining health 2 times. Things like that didn't seem any bit overpowered to me.
Weapons in EQ had a proc per minute number that each swing calculated from. Sometimes you'd get a couple procs in a row and some fights you'd end up with none. It was never really overpowered and sometimes getting double procs was a real negative since they often had a very high aggro attached so a non-tank double procing could spell death early enough in a fight.
I am in favor of some classes having double attack (not as much for triple), it just feels really good as a player when you are leveling up and reach the tipping point in both your dual wield and double attack so that you are often throwing out 3 or 4 hits in a round. It also helps to shore up a bit of the gap that grows between melee and casters DPS in a way that is noticeable and feels good as opposed to just boosting the numbers on all melee DPS abilities.
One of the bigger issues Everquest had was class identity and adding system after system onto the combat with flurries and other attacks. Not saying they should not exist, but if there is a clear expansion idea of class identity multiple expansions (of the combat system at least) and still maintain viability between the classes to perform their roles and not suffer the curse of min/maxing then you can still have class identity without everyone getting triple attack or any other combat ability.
Liav said:I don't think anyone is derailing this thread, but I'll go ahead and laugh at the assertion that games with auto attack/cooldown based combat take no skill.
Dark Souls isn't that hard, the game just has a high learning curve. This isn't an action combat game, nor does it have to be one for it to be challenging. Your average FFXIV/WoW raid is far more demanding than an experienced Dark Souls player memorizing movesets so they know how to dodge things.
This is coming from someone who has PvP'd extensively in both Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3.
lol memorizing move sets? you have to dodge in response to someone else doing something. That's much better than responding to a cd reaching 0, as you stare at your action bar and not the game. but to each their own.
BeaverBiscuit said:lol memorizing move sets? you have to dodge in response to someone else doing something. That's much better than responding to a cd reaching 0, as you stare at your action bar and not the game. but to each their own.
Do you really not believe that reactive gameplay exists in any MMO? EQ2 had some pretty solid reactive gameplay that was less about "responding to a cd reaching 0" and far more about using things like group cures, stoneskins, etc. at the correct times.
PvP in general is reactive by nature because people aren't scripts and are far less predictable. Your average boss in Dark Souls is all about learning the enemy's movesets so you can dodge things at the correct times and know when you can safely attack. Most bosses tend to follow somewhat predictable patterns. That isn't unlike most MMO fights, Dark Souls is just a bit more reactive. I wouldn't want to see Dark Souls levels of reactive gameplay required to play an MMO.