oneADseven said:I am hoping there will be some sort of arena setting. We'll be able to /duel on a PVE server right? I don't care if things are "balanced" for PVP on a PVE server ... I am just hoping people can dabble with it from time to time. It was mentioned we will "never be able to PVP on a pure PvE server." Will there be unpure PVE servers? What exactly is PVP considered? I can understand if we will never be able to flag for open world PVP on a PVE server, but what about letting people have at it in a controlled environment, even if it means sticking to the same PVE balance ruleset? For someone like me, I don't really care about it being balanced ... I would just like to mess around and have some fun, friendly competition with guild mates (or rival guilds) from time to time. If Paladins are OP because of LoH, good for them. If rogues are amazing because of their ability to sneak around, great. If warriors (what I will be playing) absolutely suck due to how they are balanced for PVE, I don't really care. It's just to mess around with friends, not climb a competitive ladder.
I really enjoy some occassional PVP but I find it very unlikely that I will want to play on multiple servers to be able to fulfill the desire. Pantheon is being built from the ground up with PVE in mind so PVP feels like more of an after thought, and that doesen't sound very appealing when it comes to making a permanent server choice. If it is truly the case that we won't see any form of PVP whatsoever on PVE servers, I genuinely hope we have other forms of "player vs player competition." If we can't kill each other (or at least knock them out or whatever) hopefully we will see things like fishing tournaments, or even a PVE arena. Something like a small arena that continues to spawn waves of mobs and tracks efficiency for groups. Maybe a leaderboard to see which group cleared the most amount of waves, or who cleared X amount of waves the fastest, or with the least deaths.
I feel that competition is very important. I have seen so many posts from people that don't want to be "bothered" by other players ... in an M-M-O. Come on. That's what lead to instances, horrible pathing, encounter locking, etc. I understand there are trolls but what's the point of having an MMO world where you can run into other players if they can't affect your experience? I am hoping to see DPS racing for raid bosses, the ability to train people (and save them), and more of an emphasis on competition in general. I have seen the argument come up plenty of times that if a player wants to compete, they should go to a PVP server. Why is that? Why can't people compete without trying to kill each other? If the game doesen't allow for natural competition, players will find a way to do it themselves.
Many folks share in the idea that they want the world to feel alive. There are plenty of ways to do that server side, but allowing freedom amongst the players is just as important. I would be disappointed if I couldn't meaningfully interact with other players outside of my group or raid. The main reason people enjoy PVP is because it isn't nearly as predictable as PVE. That same thought process should receive heavy consideration on a PVE server. I want to be able to interact with other players in ways that might not be predictable. This includes getting trained and DPS racing but could also mean players killing bankers or quest givers ... destroying/creating a bridge, opening or locking doors, etc. I know all of this is basically creating an environment for trolls to thrive in but it also feels like you are taking off the training wheels.
All of this is fine....till it isn't. I started my WoW time on a PvP server, it left a bad taste in my mouth and I LIKED to PvP, but the amount of griefing (killing quest NPCs, bankers, flight handlers) was out of control, being corpse camped in STV by a group was a common event. PvP does not mean lack of fun, but that is what it became to mean. Why should a players time and fun be spoilt by PvP?
As for it's an MMO excuse, it holds no water. So MMO means people killing flight masters, NPCs, vendors, bankers, and camping corpses in any way a meaningful interaction on a PVE server? I look on MMO as a more positive experience, helping people, making friends, acting as a team. They have mentioned duels and arenas, I don't think anyone would have a problem with this on a PVE server.
I know it's not all trolls who like PVP but it sure feels like the majority of today's MMOs, griefing seems to be their raison d'etre.
For competition it is an open world, there will be rushes in dungeons to get to the final encounter, there will be trains, but do we need to directly fight each other?
I will massacre this quote "War does not show who is right, just who is left." Bertram Russel
Let's be happy for the PVE and PVP players they both get a home they can be happy on. Don't forget Pantheon from day 1 has been a PVE group centric idea.
Have a good one 8)
I've PvP'd mainly in most MMO's for the last 10 years. However, this was only due to I had nothing else to do in the game and couldn't commit 4-5hours a night for raiding. This is something I hope isn't a problem in Pantheon, and therefore I hope to see PvP and PvE remain seperate.
Then again if we did allow PvP on a PvE server I would hope that no balancing is done for PvP and it just is what it is. Meaning is one class is OP in PvP then one class is OP in PvP... Again it is what it is. As long as PvP doesn't impact balance of PvE classes and roles I'm happy with whatever. That is all I would like to see.
oneADseven, you really resonate with me. As someone that likes both PvP and PvE I pains me to see how so many seem equate PvP with getting spawn ganked when it is a lot wider and deeper of a thing than that. Social health of a game is very much tied and related to competition between players, not just killing eachother but in indirect ways, be it highscores in minigames or even who has the most DKP in the guild. Competition allows you to have people that are "the best" and for others to look up to them and want to be better, giving people goals. Showing off is important, we want the better gear to look cool, we want our efforts to give rewards, titles, mounts, stupid hats or whatever.
All interaction can't be a happy tea time. If you meet someone else, what do you do? Group up? Ok, and then when your group is full and you meet another group? Should you just ignore the other group and move on? Isn't that counter to what we want with interaction, we just made it from "me alone" to "me and my close friends alone". Even if the interaction is "bad" and they are "stealing" your mobs or whatever else you find annoying, you have interacted with those others and you will remember their names.
Firstly I would like to say that keeping PvE and PvP seperate through seperate servers being the only way feels a bit like taking it too far, games have and are using technology capable of using different numbers on spells for players and NPC's, they don't have to negatively affect each others balance in that fashion. And secondly, I don't think we want a "fair" game, we don't want a game where every class can beat every class. We want a game where each class has their strenght and weaknesses and we as players are the ones to figure out how to use the class's tools to their full potential or in creative ways. I'm not going to go as far as oneADseven and say I wouldn't mind warriors (or whatever else) to be an ENTIERLY useless class for PvP content, I want all classes to have a place in PvP, but that doesn't mean they PvP in the same way.
And the thing I want the least of all is what some MMO's called PvP are lobby battlegrounds, basically making it into a "sitting in the city and waiting for the queue to pop" that we don't want PvE to be, why would we want PvP to be that? If I want lobby based PvP with no reprecautions there are other games for that, I think it is important for the PvP to echo the tenents of PvE and all the other FAQ stuff. We want to be out in the world, not just for the PvE.
I know my opinion might not be shared by many, but I do enjoy pvp, so I want to share... I always go play games that are pvp focused when I want to pvp (usually first person shooters but it can vary). Sure I might duel or screw around in the arena a bit in PRotF...but I won't be playing on a pvp server. That's not what I'm looking for in this game. I would encourage others not to get your hopes up for pvp here. We have known all along that pvp isn't the focus.
Questaar said:OneADseven,
I really enjoy reading your posts. They are well thought out and logical. I don’t claim to know you, but I am surprised you are not a straight PvP player. With the wide base of knowledge of each class, that you posses, and the extra competition PvP brings to the table, you seem a perfect fit. What is it about PvP that makes you not go that route entirely? Again, you are certainly able to play whatever you want. And play any style you want. I’m just curious. One of the big reasons I play PvE is because players are so much harder to out- think than the standard E mobs.
There are several reasons. For one, Pantheon has been labeled a PVE game through and through. I want the best experience possible for me and my guild and if Pantheon is being designed from the ground up with PVE in mind, I don't want to invest in a character or server that plays second fiddle to the developers heart strings. Secondly, as much as I love PVP, I also love PVE. If you play on a PVP server, your PVE experience obviously changes quite a bit. There are times where I want to focus exclusively on one or the other ... I remember spending weeks or months learning an encounter to take it down. That isn't possible on a PVP server. A couple players can literally ruin your progression experience with trains or well timed healer assassinations. Don't get me wrong ... I would absolutely enjoy this style of play, but I would prefer to be able to toggle it. When I started TDC it was with the strict understanding that we would be a PVE guild. We have been around for over 8 months now and we aren't going to change that.
I guess what it all comes down to is having a choice, and that's why I feel having a PVP toggle would be ideal. I played on a PVE server on WoW and for the most part people wouldn't flag for PVP. But every now and then, you might find someone who did (almost like roleplaying in a sense) and be able to have at it. If the horde attacked our town, players would flag for PVP and try to defend it. These kind of dynamic player driven raids were a ton of fun. I loved seeing my city get sieged and actually being able to respond, even while on a PVE server. I guess that pretty much sums it up ... I love PVP but it's most likely going to be an after thought in this game. PVP servers usually suffer from diminished populations and attract griefers/hackers, etc.
I don't want to risk the enjoyment of myself and others when it comes to making a permanent choice that I might regret down the line. The "safe" route is to play on a PVE server ... and as someone who has a natural inclination to take risks (if the reward is commensurate), it pains me. I am an avid poker player and the most profitable play in poker is folding. It never feels good or fun, but sometimes it's the right move. When it comes to making a permanent choice for this game, folding the PVP cards seems like the best option. If I could play some PVP games on the side (without having to risk my entire tournament life) that would be fantastic. Even without full-fledged PVP, I still hope to see a world that truly feels alive ... I want to be able to impact the life of other players and vice versa. If we can get some friendly competition going that will go along way. I love the competition factor of PVP but I also love the comraderie, unity, and coordination that is required to play at the highest level of PVE. If I have to choose one or the other I'll take the latter.
Jazznblues said:oneADseven said:I am hoping there will be some sort of arena setting. We'll be able to /duel on a PVE server right? I don't care if things are "balanced" for PVP on a PVE server ... I am just hoping people can dabble with it from time to time. It was mentioned we will "never be able to PVP on a pure PvE server." Will there be unpure PVE servers? What exactly is PVP considered? I can understand if we will never be able to flag for open world PVP on a PVE server, but what about letting people have at it in a controlled environment, even if it means sticking to the same PVE balance ruleset? For someone like me, I don't really care about it being balanced ... I would just like to mess around and have some fun, friendly competition with guild mates (or rival guilds) from time to time. If Paladins are OP because of LoH, good for them. If rogues are amazing because of their ability to sneak around, great. If warriors (what I will be playing) absolutely suck due to how they are balanced for PVE, I don't really care. It's just to mess around with friends, not climb a competitive ladder.
I really enjoy some occassional PVP but I find it very unlikely that I will want to play on multiple servers to be able to fulfill the desire. Pantheon is being built from the ground up with PVE in mind so PVP feels like more of an after thought, and that doesen't sound very appealing when it comes to making a permanent server choice. If it is truly the case that we won't see any form of PVP whatsoever on PVE servers, I genuinely hope we have other forms of "player vs player competition." If we can't kill each other (or at least knock them out or whatever) hopefully we will see things like fishing tournaments, or even a PVE arena. Something like a small arena that continues to spawn waves of mobs and tracks efficiency for groups. Maybe a leaderboard to see which group cleared the most amount of waves, or who cleared X amount of waves the fastest, or with the least deaths.
I feel that competition is very important. I have seen so many posts from people that don't want to be "bothered" by other players ... in an M-M-O. Come on. That's what lead to instances, horrible pathing, encounter locking, etc. I understand there are trolls but what's the point of having an MMO world where you can run into other players if they can't affect your experience? I am hoping to see DPS racing for raid bosses, the ability to train people (and save them), and more of an emphasis on competition in general. I have seen the argument come up plenty of times that if a player wants to compete, they should go to a PVP server. Why is that? Why can't people compete without trying to kill each other? If the game doesen't allow for natural competition, players will find a way to do it themselves.
Many folks share in the idea that they want the world to feel alive. There are plenty of ways to do that server side, but allowing freedom amongst the players is just as important. I would be disappointed if I couldn't meaningfully interact with other players outside of my group or raid. The main reason people enjoy PVP is because it isn't nearly as predictable as PVE. That same thought process should receive heavy consideration on a PVE server. I want to be able to interact with other players in ways that might not be predictable. This includes getting trained and DPS racing but could also mean players killing bankers or quest givers ... destroying/creating a bridge, opening or locking doors, etc. I know all of this is basically creating an environment for trolls to thrive in but it also feels like you are taking off the training wheels.
All of this is fine....till it isn't. I started my WoW time on a PvP server, it left a bad taste in my mouth and I LIKED to PvP, but the amount of griefing (killing quest NPCs, bankers, flight handlers) was out of control, being corpse camped in STV by a group was a common event. PvP does not mean lack of fun, but that is what it became to mean. Why should a players time and fun be spoilt by PvP?
As for it's an MMO excuse, it holds no water. So MMO means people killing flight masters, NPCs, vendors, bankers, and camping corpses in any way a meaningful interaction on a PVE server? I look on MMO as a more positive experience, helping people, making friends, acting as a team. They have mentioned duels and arenas, I don't think anyone would have a problem with this on a PVE server.
I know it's not all trolls who like PVP but it sure feels like the majority of today's MMOs, griefing seems to be their raison d'etre.
For competition it is an open world, there will be rushes in dungeons to get to the final encounter, there will be trains, but do we need to directly fight each other?
I will massacre this quote "War does not show who is right, just who is left." Bertram Russel
Let's be happy for the PVE and PVP players they both get a home they can be happy on. Don't forget Pantheon from day 1 has been a PVE group centric idea.
Have a good one 8)
How many dungeons do you think will have that final encounter for guilds to compete for? We have no idea how heavily sharding/ghosting will be utilized but it seems like the majority of people don't like "competition" on a PVE server. It was mentioned that the "majority of people" also don't want PVP of any kind on their PVE server and that is being accommodated. My hope is that we'll see a nice balance of contested content to go along with ghost/lockout encounters. If not, what's the difference between open world and instanced? You get to see other players but you wouldn't be able to affect each other ... I like the idea of that exclusive legendary boss being at the bottom of a dungeon, and knowing that only X amount of groups/raids can kill it per day/week.
At the same time, I understand why MMO's went the direction of instancing. People enjoy being able to schedule things and sometimes they want to play in a world that can't be hampered by other players. Unfortunately that's exactly what happens when you have a contested mob ... one guild kills it, and then the other guild sounds off that it wasn't a matter of a lack of skill that prevented them from killing it, but rather, it was other players ... the no-lifers and poop sockers. Just to be clear, I am not saying I promote the idea of corpse camping on a PVE server. I mentioned having an arena, or an area where you can participate in controlled PVP. It would be completely optional and thus present no risk to folks who aren't interested.
Enforcing all or nothing is a horrible idea in my opinion. As with most things, a balance somewhere in the middle would probably be ideal. I know a ton of people who "enjoy PVP" but don't want to play it full-time. That's a lot of potential happiness going down the drain if people have to choose one or the other exclusively. I understand that you can't "balance PVP" on a PVE server the same way you can a PVP server, and that's perfectly okay. I gauarantee there are a bunch of people who would still appreciate being able to participate in unbalanced PVP at their leisure rather than being forced to go all-in with "balanced PVP" on a traditional PVP server.
People like dueling right? Why couldn't the /duel aspect of PVE servers be expanded upon a bit to help deliver a fun semi-PVP experience for people to enjoy? The game doesen't need to be "PVP Balanced" for dueling purposes ... or does it? Will we not be able to duel? It's not a matter of life and death ... it's just people messing around while they wait or having a go at each other for bragging rights. When a warrior takes down a ranger (I did this in EQ2) it was considered a remarkable feat ... my class wasn't balanced for PVP but I still won the duel and it felt awesome. I also lost like 49 others vs ranger but that didn't stop me from trying. I knew my class sucked for PVP but I worked on getting "situational duel gear" ... good times.
I am a wholehearted supporter of a gladitorial arena where people can bet on players fighting each other in 1v1 and I'd love to see team stuff too, 6v6, feel like keeping it to the idea of a group is good.
I would like to add, if a "PvP Server" is just going to be the same as a PvE with Player Killing toggled I would much rather VR just don't do PvP dedicated servers, because that would in no way be any dedication to PvP. Give us some smaller stuff on PvE servers like the before mentioned Gladitorial Arena, Highscore style stuff, JOUSTING, some small PvP-on zone. Half-assing PvP servers is not the way to go in my opinion.
I agree. All or nothing with PVE or PVP is going to ostracize the "casual PVP" community, and it's pretty big. I think it's one of the major reasons that PVP servers don't usually pan out in PVE games (almost always the first to get merged due to dwindling populations) -- these servers are usually dominated by griefers and most people just don't have the time/patience to deal with that. It's basically a full-time hardcore server that is very unappealing to new players that want a chance to learn the game. These servers have historically struggled with attrition and it's not surprising why. Like I mentioned before ... there are a ton of people who would like to dabble with PVP at their leisure. A true PVP server is not an option for them ... it's a double negative. The PVP server loses out on an opportunity to increase it's player base by ostracizing the casual folks, and the players who enjoy casual PVP have no option to entertain them. Rolling multiple characters on multiple servers is NOT a feasible solution.
I'm probably going to be really unpopular when I say this but I really enjoyed playing on a PvP server in World of Warcraft. Having free for all PvP was a great way to break up the grind and have some fun and if you got stuck you could call your guild mates in to help you.
I also loved the battlegrounds in World of Warcraft and having a leader board so you could see how you compared with other players to give yourself some motivation to improve and keep doing them.
The thing about PvP is that it is different every time you do it because you are fighting against other players and it just adds something different to the game play experience that PvE just can't match.
A nice compromise would be to have no open world PvP on PvE servers but have battlegrounds that took players from all the servers of similar levels and put them up against each other. That way if you don't want to PvP you can completely ignore and if you do want PvP even if you are on a PvE server you would have the option. Battlegrounds are probably the only things that I think instances should be used for as it makes sense there especially if you are mixing players from different servers all in the same match.
I would 100% be down for battlegrounds. Two maps would be plenty ... something like WSG and AB (Capture the Flag map and Control Map) -- maybe this is something we'll see in a future expansion? Battlegrounds were my favorite part of WoW ... and if players had the option to que for those, it could definitely help with spreading the population out to prevent over-camping or crowded zones.
Kilsin said:Honestly, the two do not mix very well unless the game is specifically designed with them both in mind. Pantheon is a PvE game first and foremost and the majority of our community are PvE focused, they have made it very clear that they do not want PvP on the PvE servers, we listened to that and still want to create a place for the PvP crowd, so we are basically just creating PvE servers and turning PvP on for those who like PvP (plus different rulesets depending on the majority vote), there will not be any shared servers though, if you want to PvE you can do everything on a PvP server that you can on a PvE server just with the continually added risk of other players attacking you.
If that is too much for you to handle then I would suggest creating a character on the PvE server too so you can play whichever one suits your mood but you will not be able to do both on a PvE server. The only way we can keep class and content changes separate is to keep them on separate servers, mixing them both will ultimately create a scene where if a PvP ability is too strong against other players, if we nerf it, the PvE crowd get nerfed too against monsters and the environment and visa versa, if a PvE ability is too strong against a named mob and we nerf it, the PvP crowd get nerfed against each other, which no one wants to relive things like that from previous games, it isn't fair on either side, so we are intentionally keeping them very separate.
So either choose PvP or PvE or create a character on each server but you will never be able to PvP on a pure PvE server.
Thank you! I'm glad to see a PVE game finally realize that if you try to do both, you fail at achieving your vision/goal. Game history have taught us that you can choose to do two things okay, or one thing really well. Learn from others failures as well, not just your own. There are plenty of games out there to play if you want both styles to be okay. I've been dying for PVE done really well for a long long time now.
Cromulent said:I'm probably going to be really unpopular when I say this but I really enjoyed playing on a PvP server in World of Warcraft. Having free for all PvP was a great way to break up the grind and have some fun and if you got stuck you could call your guild mates in to help you.
I also loved the battlegrounds in World of Warcraft and having a leader board so you could see how you compared with other players to give yourself some motivation to improve and keep doing them.
The thing about PvP is that it is different every time you do it because you are fighting against other players and it just adds something different to the game play experience that PvE just can't match.
A nice compromise would be to have no open world PvP on PvE servers but have battlegrounds that took players from all the servers of similar levels and put them up against each other. That way if you don't want to PvP you can completely ignore and if you do want PvP even if you are on a PvE server you would have the option. Battlegrounds are probably the only things that I think instances should be used for as it makes sense there especially if you are mixing players from different servers all in the same match.
I will fight you for the unpopular vote 8)
Why do the PVE players need to compromise for the PVP players, when there are going to be PVP servers. As Kilsin has said, to balance both styles on the same server someone is going to lose. So they are making different types of servers. As a WoW player you know whenever Blizzard balance PVP, PVE suffers in the balancing. The two systems have different values, weights, and ratios when it comes to damage, mitigation, and health. I have never seen PVE/PVP merge well in any MMO, and I have tried a few. Blizzard tried open world PVP in Silithus and we all know how it failed, with only a handful (if that) of people even bothering with it after the first week.
It's not like you are being made to make a choice as you could have a toon on each type of server. To be honest I see this as a non issue. If you did not have the option I would argue for you all day long, but PVPers have an option that does not impact people that don't want to PVP. I have said in previous posts I used to PVP a lot, and I will undoubtedly roll on a PVP server for when the inclination takes me. But I neither expect or want the Pantheon team to cater to me.
I have the option. I will exercise that option.
Have a good one! 8)
I'm all for PvP servers that are completely segregated from the PvE servers as long as the PvP players understand Pantheon is a PvE game that isn't going to balance for them because "casters are OP".
That's my gripe with PvP games, they balance out the uniqueness and fun until all classes are the same. I also don't want to have Battlegrounds or Wow style arenas. They don make sense in Terminus. Terminus isn't Azeroth.
i enjoyed playing in Azeroth, but there's a great game out that already has that this faction vs that faction thing. I'm more interested now in getting back to a more complex and reaistic faction makeup like Norearth had, where individuals could prove themselves to opposing races and become friendly. This doesn't really lend itself to battlegrounds, where it's important to identify your enemy on sight.
There are already so many games available or coming up (WoW, Albion Online, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Ashes of Creation, GW2, Black Desert) that cater to the PvP crowd, why shoehorn it into this one that's being designed for PvE?
Jazznblues said:Cromulent said:I'm probably going to be really unpopular when I say this but I really enjoyed playing on a PvP server in World of Warcraft. Having free for all PvP was a great way to break up the grind and have some fun and if you got stuck you could call your guild mates in to help you.
I also loved the battlegrounds in World of Warcraft and having a leader board so you could see how you compared with other players to give yourself some motivation to improve and keep doing them.
The thing about PvP is that it is different every time you do it because you are fighting against other players and it just adds something different to the game play experience that PvE just can't match.
A nice compromise would be to have no open world PvP on PvE servers but have battlegrounds that took players from all the servers of similar levels and put them up against each other. That way if you don't want to PvP you can completely ignore and if you do want PvP even if you are on a PvE server you would have the option. Battlegrounds are probably the only things that I think instances should be used for as it makes sense there especially if you are mixing players from different servers all in the same match.
I will fight you for the unpopular vote 8)
Why do the PVE players need to compromise for the PVP players, when there are going to be PVP servers. As Kilsin has said, to balance both styles on the same server someone is going to lose. So they are making different types of servers. As a WoW player you know whenever Blizzard balance PVP, PVE suffers in the balancing. The two systems have different values, weights, and ratios when it comes to damage, mitigation, and health. I have never seen PVE/PVP merge well in any MMO, and I have tried a few. Blizzard tried open world PVP in Silithus and we all know how it failed, with only a handful (if that) of people even bothering with it after the first week.
It's not like you are being made to make a choice as you could have a toon on each type of server. To be honest I see this as a non issue. If you did not have the option I would argue for you all day long, but PVPers have an option that does not impact people that don't want to PVP. I have said in previous posts I used to PVP a lot, and I will undoubtedly roll on a PVP server for when the inclination takes me. But I neither expect or want the Pantheon team to cater to me.
I have the option. I will exercise that option.
Have a good one! 8)
The problem is I am going to be playing on the European server and there is normally only a single PvE server in that region so if you want to PvP you need to create a second character on a different server without your guild which is something I really want to avoid as being in-game with guild mates is great. So the only way I'll be able to PvP is if they have something like battlegrounds (either that or convince all 60 odd members of my guild to play on a US PvP server which I doubt will happen).
So yeah, European players are stuck when it comes to PvP.
Something I have to add. I see comments that PVP is just fun. Ever PVPed in WoW? It is the most toxic and harmful community hands down. I have friends who I raid with and they are as nice as pie, they are different people in a BG, herd mentality? I don't know but I do know it's more than bragging rights when you best someone in a duel, 5 minutes outside Orgrimmar, or in Elwynn Forest makes this abundantly clear.
So no. I don't want PVP on a PVE server. I certainly don't want to see the yelling about someone using CDs in a duel where it seems you were not supposed to (an insane stipulation IMO, akin to the no potions rule many years back).
Have a good one! 8)
Jazznblues said:Something I have to add. I see comments that PVP is just fun. Ever PVPed in WoW? It is the most toxic and harmful community hands down. I have friends who I raid with and they are as nice as pie, they are different people in a BG, herd mentality? I don't know but I do know it's more than bragging rights when you best someone in a duel, 5 minutes outside Orgrimmar, or in Elwynn Forest makes this abundantly clear.
So no. I don't want PVP on a PVE server. I certainly don't want to see the yelling about someone using CDs in a duel where it seems you were not supposed to (an insane stipulation IMO, akin to the no potions rule many years back).
Have a good one! 8)
I played on a role play PvP server in World of Warcraft. The community was great. I didn't see any toxic stuff at all unless you count corpse camping but that is what you sign up for if you play on a PvP server. Get your friends to help you if you can't get your corpse back.
Cromulent said:Jazznblues said:Cromulent said:I'm probably going to be really unpopular when I say this but I really enjoyed playing on a PvP server in World of Warcraft. Having free for all PvP was a great way to break up the grind and have some fun and if you got stuck you could call your guild mates in to help you.
I also loved the battlegrounds in World of Warcraft and having a leader board so you could see how you compared with other players to give yourself some motivation to improve and keep doing them.
The thing about PvP is that it is different every time you do it because you are fighting against other players and it just adds something different to the game play experience that PvE just can't match.
A nice compromise would be to have no open world PvP on PvE servers but have battlegrounds that took players from all the servers of similar levels and put them up against each other. That way if you don't want to PvP you can completely ignore and if you do want PvP even if you are on a PvE server you would have the option. Battlegrounds are probably the only things that I think instances should be used for as it makes sense there especially if you are mixing players from different servers all in the same match.
I will fight you for the unpopular vote 8)
Why do the PVE players need to compromise for the PVP players, when there are going to be PVP servers. As Kilsin has said, to balance both styles on the same server someone is going to lose. So they are making different types of servers. As a WoW player you know whenever Blizzard balance PVP, PVE suffers in the balancing. The two systems have different values, weights, and ratios when it comes to damage, mitigation, and health. I have never seen PVE/PVP merge well in any MMO, and I have tried a few. Blizzard tried open world PVP in Silithus and we all know how it failed, with only a handful (if that) of people even bothering with it after the first week.
It's not like you are being made to make a choice as you could have a toon on each type of server. To be honest I see this as a non issue. If you did not have the option I would argue for you all day long, but PVPers have an option that does not impact people that don't want to PVP. I have said in previous posts I used to PVP a lot, and I will undoubtedly roll on a PVP server for when the inclination takes me. But I neither expect or want the Pantheon team to cater to me.
I have the option. I will exercise that option.
Have a good one! 8)
The problem is I am going to be playing on the European server and there is normally only a single PvE server in that region so if you want to PvP you need to create a second character on a different server without your guild which is something I really want to avoid as being in-game with guild mates is great. So the only way I'll be able to PvP is if they have something like battlegrounds (either that or convince all 60 odd members of my guild to play on a US PvP server which I doubt will happen).
So yeah, European players are stuck when it comes to PvP.
This is something I am wrestling with at the moment. I currently (when I play) am on NA WoW server. Not decided if I will come back to EU servers or stick with NA. If only they had a system like Rift where you can change between the two.
I wouldn't object to consensual PvP on the same servers as the PvE crowds. Something like a flag you can set to mark yourself as a PvP player, allowing other players to attack you. Non-consensual PvP among PvE players would be a disaster IMHO. It's just too disruptive. A simpler implementation would be arenas open to willing participants, but match-making could be tricky. Maybe free-for-all, last-man-standing-style arenas?
Still, maybe it's best that PvE and PvP live on separate servers. This way the game can be balanced for one without affecting the other, there won't be opportunities to grief players by making them accidentally flag themselves as PvPers, etc. There are only two things I would like to see in this case: firstly, not too many different servers/rulesets. These may be fun but could also cause the community to fracture into separate niches. Also, each ruleset would probably need its own team of people to work on balancing issues, which could affect the ammount of resources available for other tasks. Secondly, it would be great if players could take a peek in other servers on their current characters. Maybe make server swapping an option during large maintenances, e.g. new content launch or periodic major maintenance, something like every 6 months or so.
Manouk said:I would suggest for PVP server to make no attempt to balance the classes, rather leave them as is.
Yeah their is no such thing as a balanced class, you could have the "worst" pvp class kill the "OP" pvp class simply by the skill set of the players and becuase he gets mad he think the"worst" class is OP and demands a nerf on them not realizing he is playing his class wrong. Like for me i say at range wizard's should obviously be more powerful than a warrior, but if that warrior closes in the distance the wizard should feel threatenied and know if he doesnt get him away from him he should get killed quite easily as they shouldn't be very strong when it comes to getting hit multiple times, it simply just makes sense to be that way,
I thought about the server xfer option as well but unfortunately that isn't something you should do between PVE/PVP. The PVE server would have a huge edge in the sense that they will most likely progress through the PVE content much faster. You could get someone to transfer to a PVP server that has better gear than anybody else (possibly from mobs that have never been killed there) and it would really disrupt the flow of progression for the players.
For the record, as much as I enjoy PVP, I understand that Pantheon is a PVE game. I have been craving a next-gen oldschool PVE MMO for a very long time and PVP is basically an after thought. Yes, PVP is fun ... but that kind of fun, specifically, isn't why I am here. Do we know how/if/when PVP is going to be tested? I would love to try it during testing just to see how everything feels. I wasn't really expecting anything to test PVP wise until around beta.
Youmu said:oneADseven, you really resonate with me. As someone that likes both PvP and PvE I pains me to see how so many seem equate PvP with getting spawn ganked when it is a lot wider and deeper of a thing than that. Social health of a game is very much tied and related to competition between players, not just killing eachother but in indirect ways, be it highscores in minigames or even who has the most DKP in the guild. Competition allows you to have people that are "the best" and for others to look up to them and want to be better, giving people goals. Showing off is important, we want the better gear to look cool, we want our efforts to give rewards, titles, mounts, stupid hats or whatever.
All interaction can't be a happy tea time. If you meet someone else, what do you do? Group up? Ok, and then when your group is full and you meet another group? Should you just ignore the other group and move on? Isn't that counter to what we want with interaction, we just made it from "me alone" to "me and my close friends alone". Even if the interaction is "bad" and they are "stealing" your mobs or whatever else you find annoying, you have interacted with those others and you will remember their names.
Firstly I would like to say that keeping PvE and PvP seperate through seperate servers being the only way feels a bit like taking it too far, games have and are using technology capable of using different numbers on spells for players and NPC's, they don't have to negatively affect each others balance in that fashion. And secondly, I don't think we want a "fair" game, we don't want a game where every class can beat every class. We want a game where each class has their strenght and weaknesses and we as players are the ones to figure out how to use the class's tools to their full potential or in creative ways. I'm not going to go as far as oneADseven and say I wouldn't mind warriors (or whatever else) to be an ENTIERLY useless class for PvP content, I want all classes to have a place in PvP, but that doesn't mean they PvP in the same way.
And the thing I want the least of all is what some MMO's called PvP are lobby battlegrounds, basically making it into a "sitting in the city and waiting for the queue to pop" that we don't want PvE to be, why would we want PvP to be that? If I want lobby based PvP with no reprecautions there are other games for that, I think it is important for the PvP to echo the tenents of PvE and all the other FAQ stuff. We want to be out in the world, not just for the PvE.
As much as this might be true the main reaosn why they keep them very much seperated is becuase when they buff or nerf a skill on one server is doesnt affect the other server, which is very important and am willing to remain that why, becuase i hate it when they nerf a skill/spell that was awesome to have for pve but than gets nerfed becuase the pvpers found it to powerful, or vise versa, they need to make it to where this doesn't happen and if this is the way they can do it than im glad with this adjustment.
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:BamBam said:Killin thanks a lot for your response! I respect your decisions and ofc I will adapt just fine :) But I still see the option to merge these two worlds. As I see it you balance pve, then you adjust skills for pvp. As an example a long duration mess could last 20 s on a mob, but in pvp max duration is 5 s. Maybe people have to be ok with everything is not in total balance and complete harmony in pvp. Maybe pvp is only for fun, with no direct ingame honor system and pvp gear to break it. Only reason to pvp is for territories, for guild battels, and for fun. I'll still put my vote on the mixed pve/pvp server as I main one char and rarely cares for arts, specially alts on other serves, maybe that's just me :) Again thanks <3
Isaya the pvp on / pvp off would fix?
You're welcome my friend, you're welcome to give feedback during testing too, let the devs know what you think of the PvP and how you think it could be better, same goes for the PvE players on PvE content. :)
So there will be both PVE and PVP testing servers?
PvE to start with but I am sure as we progress we will open up some PvP servers.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, a new game came to market. It was called Everquest and it was friggen awesome. In the beginning, the PvP was something to be amazed at. There was no attempt at balancing so that any class was able to beat any other class or anything even close to that. Some classes were just dominant in every way. Case in point: the enchanter. In those earlyu days fighting an enchanter who knew his class well was a lesson you would not forget. An enchanter would almost always start with the same spell - BLIND. Quick casting and lengthy enough to ruin youre whole day. If you were the encahnter it was fun - but having blind on you almost immediately was something to see, so to speak. Your whole UI simply turned black. Many people simply thought that their computers just broke. There was no indication that the game was still running. Sometimes you were blinded often enough that you were trying to figure out what happened to your computer when you saw those letters, LOADING, please wait...
As an enchanter, I threw blind up first. Usually followed it up with a root or stun. Then a few debuffs. Then the spell that changed everything. Charm. I would charm them and then have some fun. Nothing says satisfaction like charming a SK and then telling that SK to go punch a guard in the nose. This is where everything in the PvP went South. You see, when you tell your SK pet to go punch a guard in the nose the guard very promptly punches him back. It usually kills the Sk in short order. Congratulations Mr. Enchanter! You win! Except. Because the guard killed the Sk, the SK took full EXp loss. Now let's say the Enchanter let's the SK Harm Touch and hit a few times and finally the SK kills the enchanter. No EXP loss. But fighting an Enchanter was risky on many levels. Charm death was full XP loss. An Enchanter had a spell called Gravity Flux (GravFlux). It did some damage, nothing major (Enchanter type mobs have never had very high DPS). It also would launch the target into the air about 30 feet. Then when the target hit the ground, he/she/it took falling damage modified by it's own effects (gravFlux someone with feather fall type spell mean no falling damg). But if you Blind the SK and strip him of his buffs and launch him into the air - he takes a bit of damage when coming down. Sometimes that last bit of damage was applied at teh very last. And since falling damage was an environmental damage - it also meant full EXP loss. Long story short - it was almost never a good idea to fight an Enchanter. And this was the beginning of the problem with PvP. Players complained (and i will not say it wasn't correct) that Enchanters were way overpowered compared to everyone else. And so began the task of creating a game where everyone was on equal footing. Enchanters were PvP nerfed into almost unplayability. They were nerfed so hard concerning PvP that it leaked into the PvE world as well. New rules applied to their skills/abilities. Diminishing returns etc. so that it became harder and harder to CC. Mobs were soon created so that they could not be CCd at all. Invisability spells were suddenly useless when they simply created a ton of mobs that could see invis. It seemed to me that every spell an Enchanter got was made useless soon thereafter. Thank the gods we still had charm eh? Oh wait - yeah, when charm breaks - the mobs would now kill you. Things got a LOT tougher for enchanters. And it kept getting worse and worse. Illusionists kept that pattern going for years. In fact, in EQ2 they were so dead set on making Illies so trivial that they gave some sort of CC to everyone. They created a game where it was far faster and easier for groups to simply AoE entire encounters instead of locking an encounter down and taking em out one-by-one. Soon, the only groups that really wanted an Illy were those simply looking for a mana battery - and there were ways around that.
And all of this came about because folks felt that Enchanters were too OP.
The point I make is that there is no way that we should EVER assume that any class should be equal to any other class. It is because of their differences that different classes exist. There should never be a concentrated attempt to make every class "equal" to any other class. I myself am done with PvP. Having tasted the early days of enchanters, I do not think it will ever return to that state. And I just can't go back. i hope you all get what you are looking for, I really do. But you will do it without me. Good luck.