I had a thought about how people were kos to a town and how it would feel extremely dangerous to them but do it in a way that doesn't inconventient the other townfolks who can be in their peacefully. Basically instead of the Merchant/Questgiver/etc chasing the target around madly or any kind of interaction at all they simply yell out something and it trigger the guards aggro range to increase by a huge some to grant aggro to the player that doesn't belong their and they either get chased away or they die, reason i dont want the merchants to interact becuase i dont want someone to get bored and run through a town over and over again and prevent anyone from selling in their own hometown, basically harassment, but if they simply increased the guards aggo range and they chased them out of town than no harm no foul. this is my 2 cents on how City Aggro should be implemented so the players using that town to sell goods or turn in quest aren't being bothered by someone else.
Angrykiz said:What if the player had killed that merchants brother out in the wilds earlier that day... I Would think some revenge would be in order.
It would be cool if factions end up being a bit deeper and more robust of a system than in previous games.
Thanks,
Kiz~
I still wouldn't want him to randomly targetting people kos to him, it a huge inconvenience to everyone trying to use his goods or sell to him, have the guards take care of the troublesome player, their really no need for merchant/questgivers to be chasing off players, it only becomes a mess at the end of the day. i would even say that the merchants/and most questgivers are unattackable so you can get rid of that inconvenience as well.
Riahuf22 said:Angrykiz said:What if the player had killed that merchants brother out in the wilds earlier that day... I Would think some revenge would be in order.
It would be cool if factions end up being a bit deeper and more robust of a system than in previous games.
Thanks,
Kiz~
I still wouldn't want him to randomly targetting people kos to him, it a huge inconvenience to everyone trying to use his goods or sell to him, have the guards take care of the troublesome player, their really no need for merchant/questgivers to be chasing off players, it only becomes a mess at the end of the day. i would even say that the merchants/and most questgivers are unattackable so you can get rid of that inconvenience as well.
I hope that NPC don't just stand in one spot all day waiting for people to use them like vending machines...
Inconveniences lead to emergent gameplay.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:Riahuf22 said:Angrykiz said:What if the player had killed that merchants brother out in the wilds earlier that day... I Would think some revenge would be in order.
It would be cool if factions end up being a bit deeper and more robust of a system than in previous games.
Thanks,
Kiz~
I still wouldn't want him to randomly targetting people kos to him, it a huge inconvenience to everyone trying to use his goods or sell to him, have the guards take care of the troublesome player, their really no need for merchant/questgivers to be chasing off players, it only becomes a mess at the end of the day. i would even say that the merchants/and most questgivers are unattackable so you can get rid of that inconvenience as well.
I hope that NPC don't just stand in one spot all day waiting for people to use them like vending machines...
Inconveniences lead to emergent gameplay.
Kiz~
Well them not aggroing people, and them doing other things is an entirely different topic, i say they are fine to wonder around within a small area for sure, but attacking, or merchants attacking players doesn't do anything but mainly lead to harrassing other players by preventing them to sell, questgivers denying people from getting their quest, or bankers stopping people from putting items in the bank, it doesn't do anything else regardless if it was on accident or on purpose, and we dont need that kind of enviroment in a game. I'm completely fine with inconviences but not when it comes to be going to a home city and trying to sell my wares and such, this such be a place of peace, and to feel safe inside the city walls.
Having a player kos in a town and totally unable to use its services makes perfect sense to me - robust faction is a good thing.
What I wouldn't like is it affecting other players - questgivers and merchants should ignore the kos player (cower-in-place) and not be attackable by him or her.
kellindil said:I like the idea, it lends to realism.
A merchant wouldn't start a bare fisted brawl with a heavily armed adventurer. They would call for a guard.
Should be a fairly easy to script action.
This. I agree. There may be a few select daring (non-essential) NPCs that would jump in and take matters into their own hands. But in general, NPCs like merchants and bankers are just regular, humble people trying to make a living. They're gonna be too scared to engage an enemy directly and should instead call for the "law enforcement" which is better equipped. Guards should be plentiful, powerful, and attentive. A single enemy player would not last very long at all just running around recklessly, even at max level with great gear. A whole squad of guards would quickly pile on and take him out. If the enemy took his time, he might be able to take out a few guards at the entrance to the city. In fact, I hope that's possible cause it's fun :P But at the same time, I'd like to see most guards have an alarmist disposition that has them call for backup so the enemy doesn't make it very far into the city.
The real problem would be if a whole guild or group of guilds decide to raid a city...
All townsfolk could be armed with rotten fruit they throw at KoS players and make them smell bad while the guards are enroute. In all seriousness though it would be interesting if KoS characters showed up on the wanted boards of the town and once they are spotted a powerful bounty hunter crew begins hunting them down. High enough disguise skills or illusions can drop a KoS character to a suspicious looking character. Then watcher NPCs need to make a perception check against the player’s current disguise to recognize them as a wanted criminal.
Trasak
And so it doesnt become an Exp Exploit *blinks* where evils can intentionally engage a humble NPC just so that they can get a private army of guards to fight,
have it coded so that in a "humble" instance, no guards give exp and that there has to be 5 guards up at all times until the offending player is dead or has zoned out. Like the 5 PK guards or "militia" can come from a barracks or somethig but are not part of the normal city guards. This would give no exp but allow small bragging rights to the PC that can handle- 1-10 or however many "militia" before dying.
That way, evil characters that want to kill guards for exp and RP purposes, can. They would aggro and pull a normal city guard and deal with aggro issues, etc, but humble NPC/s would not join in. Like a SK Troll under the bridge in Fellwithe, pulling single guards to solo and freaking out the newbies)
But for a sandbox feel, maybe some NPC's can be targeted and fought with only regular guards joining in, like bartenders and inn-keepers maybe. But with huge faction hits so the next time the player comes into town- just by zoning in the militia are triggered and start running after them.
This type of situation is negated by a serious death penalty. A low lvl player won't make it past the entrance to the town and a high lvl player won't want to suffer the consequences.
Also, merchants tend to be instant spawn and have no reward for killing them. It seems like it is a non issue in a well implemented game. The very worst it will do is ruin your merchant mining on respawn /shrug.
I think the OP's idea is worthy to build on. I like it actually and it sounds easy enough to implement since they already have the alarmist NPC behavior.
But some of the alternate ideas expressed since in this thread scare the cap out of me. I can't even begin to express how against I am to any "easy to do" but unnatural solution to players killing merchants. Please VR allow me to be inconvenienced, griefed, whatever before you "fix" the problem for me by making it unable to attack merchants, or no experiance or drops for killing merchants, or any other such "fix". IMHO these are all launching out on that slippery slope with both feet at a mad rush.
It brings me right back to my later days in EQ and my gaming partner Nulls' messaging me "Come to Wow it's just like EQ but all the problems have been fixed"
No, just no! I would rather not be able to bank or sell for a while.
The merchants running for help is a great idea...the continuous flow of Military (they start running out of the barracks, make an alarm bell starts ringing) GREAT ideas.
philo said:This type of situation is negated by a serious death penalty.
So many things are fixed by a serious death penalty. I hope, dearly, that it's implemented.
As for the topic, I agree that merchants wouldn't realistically get into brawls with armed adventurers. Calling for the guards sounds like a feasible option.
I would, however, say that if player X attacks one merchant, that OTHER merchants would possibly run up and help their fellow merchant in battle. This would enable merchants to still be killed, but also making it that much harder to do.
I really don't like the idea of neutering the world like that. All NPCs should be attackable/killable regardless of if they are a banker, merchant, or quest giver and there should only be potential consequences for doing so. Make it so merchant NPCs drop nothing at all and respawn within 5 minutes to disincentivise killing them but if someone wants to do it then let them, same with some quest givers in towns/cities. Some quest givers should drop loot, for example in EQ there was a high level monk quest to craft a certain robe that required traveling all over and gathering things to hand in for items to combine with the recipe received...or you could kill one of the two quest giving monks and take their robe (granted it took more than 1 person to kill them). Some quest lines might end up with the intended execution target offering the player more if they turn on the person who gave the quest. Things like that. Bankers could possibly have some Union of Bankers or otherwise share a universal banking faction that no one would really want to ruin, or they could just hit very hard and take a group to even kill, all while having many guards near.
Guards especially should NOT be like they tend to be in modern MMOs. I abhor the fact that in games now they are one-shot killing machines and/or offer no items/experience. It doesn't sit well with me that a player character goes out all over the world leveling and gaining power only to find the local guards are far stronger. I think EQ had it perfect with guards: they are killable, grant exp, drop loot, and most often range in the middling levels (anywhere from 20-40ish).
Iksar said:I really don't like the idea of neutering the world like that. All NPCs should be attackable/killable regardless of if they are a banker, merchant, or quest giver and there should only be potential consequences for doing so. Make it so merchant NPCs drop nothing at all and respawn within 5 minutes to disincentivise killing them but if someone wants to do it then let them, same with some quest givers in towns/cities. Some quest givers should drop loot, for example in EQ there was a high level monk quest to craft a certain robe that required traveling all over and gathering things to hand in for items to combine with the recipe received...or you could kill one of the two quest giving monks and take their robe (granted it took more than 1 person to kill them). Some quest lines might end up with the intended execution target offering the player more if they turn on the person who gave the quest. Things like that. Bankers could possibly have some Union of Bankers or otherwise share a universal banking faction that no one would really want to ruin, or they could just hit very hard and take a group to even kill, all while having many guards near.
Guards especially should NOT be like they tend to be in modern MMOs. I abhor the fact that in games now they are one-shot killing machines and/or offer no items/experience. It doesn't sit well with me that a player character goes out all over the world leveling and gaining power only to find the local guards are far stronger. I think EQ had it perfect with guards: they are killable, grant exp, drop loot, and most often range in the middling levels (anywhere from 20-40ish).
Also, to add to this, by allowing merchants and guards to be killable (and to kill YOU), you really are breathing life into your MMO world. Guards and merchants end up being memorable and having characters all their own. I think most of us EQ players remember Slate, in west commons. Or that little sissy guard in Qeynos Hills that would always wander around and get killed by gnolls.
I don't remember individual guard and merchant names in other MMOs, and that's a shame.
Iksar said:I really don't like the idea of neutering the world like that. All NPCs should be attackable/killable regardless of if they are a banker, merchant, or quest giver and there should only be potential consequences for doing so. Make it so merchant NPCs drop nothing at all and respawn within 5 minutes to disincentivise killing them but if someone wants to do it then let them, same with some quest givers in towns/cities. Some quest givers should drop loot, for example in EQ there was a high level monk quest to craft a certain robe that required traveling all over and gathering things to hand in for items to combine with the recipe received...or you could kill one of the two quest giving monks and take their robe (granted it took more than 1 person to kill them). Some quest lines might end up with the intended execution target offering the player more if they turn on the person who gave the quest. Things like that. Bankers could possibly have some Union of Bankers or otherwise share a universal banking faction that no one would really want to ruin, or they could just hit very hard and take a group to even kill, all while having many guards near.
Guards especially should NOT be like they tend to be in modern MMOs. I abhor the fact that in games now they are one-shot killing machines and/or offer no items/experience. It doesn't sit well with me that a player character goes out all over the world leveling and gaining power only to find the local guards are far stronger. I think EQ had it perfect with guards: they are killable, grant exp, drop loot, and most often range in the middling levels (anywhere from 20-40ish).
I am fine with the guards be killable, becuase they are guards and for the most part don't do much other than defend the city, but with the quest givers and merchants im totally against simply becuase you could keep him on the aggro list and make it to where no one can sell to them, which is only allowing someone to cuase some forms of harrassment, which can simply nuliffied if they cant be aggroed or attackable, people are missing the big picture, it not really the killing of the merchant that would be the problem it is training him through the zone and if you know where to go you could do it for hours if you wanted, which in case they should be unattackable mobs to prevent such forms of harrassment. Again i don't care what happens to the guards, or anything in the city that isn't considered a quest giver/banker/merchant
Just make it so that if a player engages a banker or quest giver, they also become flagged for PVP after a certain amount of time. I would love to see someone try and grief players by training a banker around for hours. They would have to be incredibly bored to do something like that (which I don't see happening in Pantheon) but even if they tried we would be able to deal with them swiftly. I like the world feeling alive. I prefer that all NPC's can be attackable and all that fun stuff but I do agree that there should be measures in place to prevent people from intentionally griefing others that can't do anything about it. An example would be someone standing in front of a doorway to block people from entering a bank ... or mass piling onto an NPC itself to prevent you from clicking it. As long as there are counter measures to dealing with griefers I could care less if they run around the world being douche bags. It would actually feel gratifying to kill them.
oneADseven said:Just make it so that if a player engages a banker or quest giver, they also become flagged for PVP after a certain amount of time. I would love to see someone try and grief players by training a banker around for hours. They would have to be incredibly bored to do something like that (which I don't see happening in Pantheon) but even if they tried we would be able to deal with them swiftly. I like the world feeling alive. I prefer that all NPC's can be attackable and all that fun stuff but I do agree that there should be measures in place to prevent people from intentionally griefing others that can't do anything about it. An example would be someone standing in front of a doorway to block people from entering a bank ... or mass piling onto an NPC itself to prevent you from clicking it. As long as there are counter measures to dealing with griefers I could care less if they run around the world being douche bags. It would actually feel gratifying to kill them.
It doesnt matter if they do it for hours or not, the point of it is doing it, there is no reason why the merchants should be attackable for any reason long with the questgivers or bankers, there isn't one reason anyone can give why they should be able to be attacked, other than the realism that it is a person and people can die argument, but im taking a more convient approach to the situation than a realism one, becuase like i said before it isnt the killing of the merchant that is going to bother me it the training of him, and trust me ive seen enough of people on a random day doing such things like this simply becuase they got 30 minutes to kill before a raid starts or something to this nature.
I get the realism that comes with being able to attack opposed faction NPCs and I am not against it per se. But the mechanics need to be carefully thought through. I don't want to see situations where people can disrupt the gameplay of other players with impunity. things like non kos healers, or exploiting spawn times and aggro mechanics to lock people out of interacting with an npc for other means have no place in a pve game, in my opinion. So I am only in favor of this kind of thing if there aren't loopholes that allow it to turn into true griefing.
Now, on full pvp servers? Have at it.
my 2gp
>I get the realism that comes with being able to attack opposed faction NPCs and I am not against it per se. But the mechanics need to be carefully thought through. I don't want to see situations where people can disrupt the gameplay of other players with impunity. things like non kos healers, or exploiting spawn times and aggro mechanics to lock people out of interacting with an npc for other means have no place in a pve game, in my opinion. So I am only in favor of this kind of thing if there aren't loopholes that allow it to turn into true griefing.<
My view precisely. I understand the benefits of allowing NPCs to attack and be attacked but they are outweighed in my opinion by the risk of griefing, I've seen in other games where the simple act of buying something or cashing in a quest became a nightmare because other players thought it was FUN to keep an entire questhub locked down by constant attacks. The purpose wasn't any benefit they could get the purpose was to annoy most of us and dying didn't bother them as long as they could keep the rest of us annoyed.
Rogz said:Why not just make it so the players can never be strong enough to do anything other than try to kill a merchant or guard? Are we going to have Necros and mages running around killing mobs that normally take a group to kill? If so then why bother with a new game at all?
This doesn't really have anything to due with the topic, but like i said before killing of guards and such as little impact on the game, but with other types of targets it does, and honestly the devs have said that it will be very hard to multibox characters in this game, not sayng it will be impossible, but honestly im sure they will make it to where the pets on the pet like classes wont be all to powerful, at least to where they can "tank" npc's becuase that cuases to much independency within one class, but like i said this is completely off topic