In Everquest, Everquest 2, and Vanguard, which are the MMOs that I played, weapons were based on your character’s actual character level. So you could loot the Dagger of Whatever, and you could equip it if your character was level whatever. Weapons weren’t really tied to skill levels except for how much damage that they would deal based on your skill level and different stats like strength and what-not.
What about tying the ability to equip, and use, some weapons based on character skill level. Maybe it’s a class of weapons. In this case I don’t mean class as in character class or based on weapon type, but maybe a class of weapons that drop from a certain type of mob or whatever.
So there would be two classes of weapons for each weapon type. Level class weapons that you need to be x level to equip and use. and skill class weapons that you have to be y skill level to equip and use.
So, for instance, if you have a piercing skill of 99, and the weapon requires a skill level of 100 to equip, you can loot it but not equip it until you have that skill level. Tangentially it would still be tied to character level because skill levels are tied to character level, but not directly tied to it, but tied to how much effort you put in to grow your character’s skills.
Maybe instead of making them a “loot drop” based weapon, make the skill level based ones a “master-smith” forged weapon. That would give an “added bonus” for all of those people that took the time to perfect their smithing abilities. To take that a step further, maybe the components to do that could only come from other “master level” groups. For instance, maybe the smithing process requires a special flask of whatever that is only made by a “master-brewer”. That would create a thriving community of skilled artisans.
Thoughts?
Iksar said:Well they have already stated that items won't have levels and save for maybe some limited few they will be equipable at any level. The amount of damage you do per hit/average damage will depend on your STR and weapons proficiency level.
That could still be worked with using my idea. That's why I had the idea of maybe master-smoth forged weapons rather than dropped ones.
Iksar said:Oh, I'm not sure I understand that part. Could you elaborate on the master craftsman thing it a bit? Like not having any loot drop weapons and only crafted items or?
This is in addition to, not replacing drop based weapons.
In the case of skill level based weapons, perhaps yeah, make them master craftsmen manufacturered. As an exampled, since I am most familliar with Rogue weapons, maybe a smithed piercing weapon based on the piercing skill level that maybe hits a little bit harder that an equivalen drop-based weapon of the same type. This not only creates a vibrant weapons trade, thus helping people that have chosen to spend a large amount of time ramping up their smithing skills. Maybe make the items used to make this dependent on other master craftsmen. like maybe requring items created by other master crasftsmen. This then ehances the crafts trade even more and makes a thriving community. If done correctly, they wouldn't overpower dropped weapons too badly because drop based weapons of stronger caliber will come out as you go into higher level zones, however, the craftsmen made, skill based, weapons would "power up" based on your skill level. If done right, not onlly would this make a thriving community and economy, but wouldn't make the dropped weapons massively inferior either.
One of the things that Brad et al talk about is making a world. I know in the original EQ there were alot of people that chose to become blacksmiths or brewers as their "primary" job as opposed to poking things with a stick...hehehe
I've always liked the idea that anyone should be able to pick up and 'use' any weapon. But to put it to anything other than basic 'anyone can hit something by accident' hit chance and damage, one must have skills and stats that support it. For example, like how Dark Souls handles some weapon mechanics like you don't have the strength to use that greatsword one-handedly. Or one doesn't have the dexerity to use a dagger as more than a butter knife. At skills to increase damage, to-hit and even attack types.
As for crafting. I wouldn't want to have mobs drop only materials. But I wouldn't mind if the often dropped damaged weapons and armour and even when not damaged, a crafter would be needed to get the most out of the drops. In addition to any augmentation system, one might have 1 or 2 'item upgrade' slots where one would need a crafter to give to-hit or damage or durability bonuses. The more 'ancient' or 'powerful' the item the higher the skill of the crafter that is needed to successfully do this. This is also in addition to actually crafted items. This way, dragons aren't dropping only things like 'Highly Toned Dragon's Tooth of Increased Dexerity' like items to craft with, but crafters have a use in the world other than as producers of second-rate items and maybe potions and food as well.
Just my musings on the subject. Perhaps a combination of these and other ideas might result in a layered crafting/drop based item system.
Kalok said:This is in addition to, not replacing drop based weapons.
In the case of skill level based weapons, perhaps yeah, make them master craftsmen manufacturered. As an exampled, since I am most familliar with Rogue weapons, maybe a smithed piercing weapon based on the piercing skill level that maybe hits a little bit harder that an equivalen drop-based weapon of the same type. This not only creates a vibrant weapons trade, thus helping people that have chosen to spend a large amount of time ramping up their smithing skills. Maybe make the items used to make this dependent on other master craftsmen. like maybe requring items created by other master crasftsmen. This then ehances the crafts trade even more and makes a thriving community. If done correctly, they wouldn't overpower dropped weapons too badly because drop based weapons of stronger caliber will come out as you go into higher level zones, however, the craftsmen made, skill based, weapons would "power up" based on your skill level. If done right, not onlly would this make a thriving community and economy, but wouldn't make the dropped weapons massively inferior either.
One of the things that Brad et al talk about is making a world. I know in the original EQ there were alot of people that chose to become blacksmiths or brewers as their "primary" job as opposed to poking things with a stick...hehehe
It's always a struggle to keep crafting relevant when up against dropped items. Interdependency between craftsmen is also a very nice thing to help keep things flowing and no one craft necessarily too much better than others as well. I think instead of them making the weapons/armors/etc themselves (though they should still have quality/desireable items to craft) that perhaps they might be able to reinforce/strengthen/enchant or otherwise enchance the items players obtain from drops/the world.
Another option would be letting craftsmen learn to make just about anything in the world with some sacrifice involved. One thing people generally worry about that becomes an issue is item flooding a server, so to further help stop "mudflation" maybe an armorsmith could make the dropped "Breastplate of Regeneration" or a weaponsmith make "Singing Steel Sword" but it would require them deconstructing for study (destroying with no materials returned) 3+ (more depending on rarity/level) of the original dropped version. Then you would have those that are very dedicated to their craft being sought after at all times...granted the items required to then craft the item once learned would have to be especially rare/costly.
DragonFist said:I've always liked the idea that anyone should be able to pick up and 'use' any weapon. But to put it to anything other than basic 'anyone can hit something by accident' hit chance and damage, one must have skills and stats that support it. For example, like how Dark Souls handles some weapon mechanics like you don't have the strength to use that greatsword one-handedly. Or one doesn't have the dexerity to use a dagger as more than a butter knife. At skills to increase damage, to-hit and even attack types.
As for crafting. I wouldn't want to have mobs drop only materials. But I wouldn't mind if the often dropped damaged weapons and armour and even when not damaged, a crafter would be needed to get the most out of the drops. In addition to any augmentation system, one might have 1 or 2 'item upgrade' slots where one would need a crafter to give to-hit or damage or durability bonuses. The more 'ancient' or 'powerful' the item the higher the skill of the crafter that is needed to successfully do this. This is also in addition to actually crafted items. This way, dragons aren't dropping only things like 'Highly Toned Dragon's Tooth of Increased Dexerity' like items to craft with, but crafters have a use in the world other than as producers of second-rate items and maybe potions and food as well.
Just my musings on the subject. Perhaps a combination of these and other ideas might result in a layered crafting/drop based item system.
I am going to address my thoughts to each of your paragraphs in a paragraph of their own.
I realize that there is a certain amount of "fudging" necessary due to this being a game, but the idea of anyone being able to use any weapon without being at least somewhat proficient at it can be an issue. For the dropped weapons, that wouldn't be an issue, a VR has already said that the dropped weapons aren't level based weapons, so they satisfy your "anyone can use any weapon" thought. I'm talking about a "special" subset of weapons being equipable based on skill.
I suspect that crafting won't use "mob drop only" items. There will be some, I am sure. I am sure that other items will be available by some sort of harvesting. It's not unreasonable to make a skill based weapon utilize a dropped weapon plus other items to create the new skill based weapon. I didn't really discuss the mechanics of how the forging would look other than to mabe combine items created by other master craftsmen in order for it to succeed.
Kalok said:DragonFist said:I've always liked the idea that anyone should be able to pick up and 'use' any weapon. But to put it to anything other than basic 'anyone can hit something by accident' hit chance and damage, one must have skills and stats that support it. For example, like how Dark Souls handles some weapon mechanics like you don't have the strength to use that greatsword one-handedly. Or one doesn't have the dexerity to use a dagger as more than a butter knife. At skills to increase damage, to-hit and even attack types.
As for crafting. I wouldn't want to have mobs drop only materials. But I wouldn't mind if the often dropped damaged weapons and armour and even when not damaged, a crafter would be needed to get the most out of the drops. In addition to any augmentation system, one might have 1 or 2 'item upgrade' slots where one would need a crafter to give to-hit or damage or durability bonuses. The more 'ancient' or 'powerful' the item the higher the skill of the crafter that is needed to successfully do this. This is also in addition to actually crafted items. This way, dragons aren't dropping only things like 'Highly Toned Dragon's Tooth of Increased Dexerity' like items to craft with, but crafters have a use in the world other than as producers of second-rate items and maybe potions and food as well.
Just my musings on the subject. Perhaps a combination of these and other ideas might result in a layered crafting/drop based item system.I am going to address my thoughts to each of your paragraphs in a paragraph of their own.
I realize that there is a certain amount of "fudging" necessary due to this being a game, but the idea of anyone being able to use any weapon without being at least somewhat proficient at it can be an issue. For the dropped weapons, that wouldn't be an issue, a VR has already said that the dropped weapons aren't level based weapons, so they satisfy your "anyone can use any weapon" thought. I'm talking about a "special" subset of weapons being equipable based on skill.
I suspect that crafting won't use "mob drop only" items. There will be some, I am sure. I am sure that other items will be available by some sort of harvesting. It's not unreasonable to make a skill based weapon utilize a dropped weapon plus other items to create the new skill based weapon. I didn't really discuss the mechanics of how the forging would look other than to mabe combine items created by other master craftsmen in order for it to succeed.
DragonFist said:Kalok said:DragonFist said:I've always liked the idea that anyone should be able to pick up and 'use' any weapon. But to put it to anything other than basic 'anyone can hit something by accident' hit chance and damage, one must have skills and stats that support it. For example, like how Dark Souls handles some weapon mechanics like you don't have the strength to use that greatsword one-handedly. Or one doesn't have the dexerity to use a dagger as more than a butter knife. At skills to increase damage, to-hit and even attack types.
As for crafting. I wouldn't want to have mobs drop only materials. But I wouldn't mind if the often dropped damaged weapons and armour and even when not damaged, a crafter would be needed to get the most out of the drops. In addition to any augmentation system, one might have 1 or 2 'item upgrade' slots where one would need a crafter to give to-hit or damage or durability bonuses. The more 'ancient' or 'powerful' the item the higher the skill of the crafter that is needed to successfully do this. This is also in addition to actually crafted items. This way, dragons aren't dropping only things like 'Highly Toned Dragon's Tooth of Increased Dexerity' like items to craft with, but crafters have a use in the world other than as producers of second-rate items and maybe potions and food as well.
Just my musings on the subject. Perhaps a combination of these and other ideas might result in a layered crafting/drop based item system.I am going to address my thoughts to each of your paragraphs in a paragraph of their own.
I realize that there is a certain amount of "fudging" necessary due to this being a game, but the idea of anyone being able to use any weapon without being at least somewhat proficient at it can be an issue. For the dropped weapons, that wouldn't be an issue, a VR has already said that the dropped weapons aren't level based weapons, so they satisfy your "anyone can use any weapon" thought. I'm talking about a "special" subset of weapons being equipable based on skill.
I suspect that crafting won't use "mob drop only" items. There will be some, I am sure. I am sure that other items will be available by some sort of harvesting. It's not unreasonable to make a skill based weapon utilize a dropped weapon plus other items to create the new skill based weapon. I didn't really discuss the mechanics of how the forging would look other than to mabe combine items created by other master craftsmen in order for it to succeed.
I don't think you really got what I meant.
Example, in real life, I have never trained in or even used a battleaxe. But if I picked it up and swung it at someone, I at least have a chance of hurting them. Doesn't mean that I'm good at it and if the person I swung at happens to be trained in martial arts, I will probably regret doing it. Hell, even without the other guy knowing anything, I have a significant chance of hurting myself with it or damaging it. But there is absolutely nothing stopping me from picking it up and swinging it.
I don't see why cleric can't pick up a sword and swing it. Just because most games say clerics wield maces and other one-hand blunts, doesn't mean he couldn't (lore and religious reasons aside). But anything beyond that basic ability to do something requires training, experience and skill. And some weapons might require a certain amount of strength or dexterity or even intelligence (ray gun, wand) to use. Not even saying that VR has to adopt this system. But I'd always found class locked weapons, i.e., a monk can't even equip a bow or a mage can only hold staves and daggers, like touch other types of weapons burns them or gives them cramps, to break immersion. I do understand that class balance and differenciation is important and limiting classes to certain weapons can make that job easier. But let my monk dance around with a great sword. He may be ineffectual with it, but so what.
The rest is just giving crafters something to do with mob dropped items always keeps their services desirable. As, unless it is a player crafted items only game, crafting seems to be relagated to potions, food and drink in most games. Sure, they can craft some other items but in most cases they are stop gap items at best. I'm just presenting a possible solution (or at least a treatment) to that problem.
My thread in and of itself doesn't speak of class based weaponry, but I get where you're coming from.
Personally, I prefer class based weaponry for "accuracy sake". What I mean by that is that, yeah, a Rogue, technically, could pick up and swing a two-handed sword, but why would he want to? His class is specifically for poking things and DPS, not tanking. Other games offer that. Although I've never played it, I hear that WoW does that. If we're going to remove class based weaponry, maybe we should do away with classes altogether and just let people train in whatever skill they want? Want to assassinate people AND be able to use magic? Go for it. To me, that would be silly. I'm sure that someone out there would absolutely love that idea, however.
Back on the topic of my idea, I had some additional thoughts last night. If one of the prerequisites for smoithing a skill based weapon was to utilize a dropped weapon, in addition to utilizing other master-craftsman made components, we wouldn't have to worry about the economy being flooded with weapons, which could potentially be a problem. Maybe this could extend further into master-crafted armors and what-not too. To take it a step further, one concern would be that some dude has The Sword of Awesomeness, a skill based weapon forever and doesn't want anything else, maybe put a skill level cap on it. Not a usability cap, but a "bonus cap". So for instance, let's set you have that and it increases your chance to crit at 2.5% per 10 skill level points. Maybe make it max out at 50 skill level points, and its bonuses don't go any higher than that. It would encourage that person to eventually get rid of that weapon in favor of another, better, weapon to keep the crafting and weapons economy from stagnating.
The issue I have with this is that, if these weapons are better then eventually they will become "required" by the elitists. Poeple will be turned down in raids because they do not have these weapons. Now that means I am forced into tradeskilling, which I hate. Being forced into gameplay that I do not want to engage in just to be accepted is an issue I have. I dislike that type of design.
Maybe having these weapons derive their bonuses from other skills would be a better design? Like for Rogues having a dagger that gets a damage bonus if your "apply poinson" skill, assuming such existed, was at a certain level. Combat skills should tie into supporting combat skills in my opinion instead of tradeskills.
Similarly, tradeskill items like hammers and chisels might get the same treatment and get bonuses depending on the level of mining skill or some such.
This for me would make more sense as if I am focused on tradeskilling, then I will almost certainly be focused on a gathering skill as well. Similarly if I am focused on combat I would assume one would be focused on getting supporting skills up as well.
I'm not one to discourage creativity, and it is a creative idea, but It doesn't sit well with me for Pantheon. I'm pretty confident their internal design and balancing of weapons and combat is far enough along that reworking it for something like this may feel a bit shoe horned. I'll have to echo Kellindils thoughts above as well.
Balancing crafted items vs. drops is tricky. Especially when there are people like me who just don't get excited about crafted gear in the traditional sense, a rare dropped item with character will always have more value to me. I carried a Scimitar of the Mistwalker in my bags for over a decade for example, and not because it was still powerful, just because it was a fun item with history and character. I'd say the balance would have to be around 'comparable, but different'. For example, same damage/delay but with a different array of stats at best. Even that leaves me a bit uneasy to be honest.
I guess I'm outting myself now as the guy that would prefer crafting be relegated to 'decent slot filler until a better item drops and some utility items'. I suppose the exception would be looting a rare drop component from a boss required for creating something comparable to his other drops, but perhaps with a bit of a unique skin. I didn't realize I was that guy until I started this paragraph, but there you go. Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent.
Ultimately, as your idea stands it would leave me feeling obligated to craft to bring all I could to the table. There was another MMO in which I main tanked for our guild and we ran into a similar issue. I had to spend a huge amount of my time engaging in a gameplay style (not killing bad guy faces) to stay relevant and it sapped a ton of my desire to play as my play time was largely taken up performing an activity I didn't enjoy so that I could, to a much smaller extent, go do the one I did.
I don't mind that these weapons would be crafted. Thats completely fine for me. As long as there are comparable dropped alternatives, even if slightly rarer.
I just don't want to craft to be able to USE the weapons. If I can buy them from a crafter, giving that person a reason to craft, I am absolutely fine with that. I just do not want to be required to build crafting skill just so I can use the weapons.
I want to make that clear here.
Having 95% of these more powerful weapons with other skill based bonuses come from crafting, with 5% as quest/drops I think would be acceptable for me. I am all for giving people a reason to craft gear other for the sake of crafting. I am still a champion of having crafted items as some of the most powerful in the game. I loved DAoC's crafting that saw crafted armor and weapon sets as the best end game items, with dropped sets being only slightly less powerful.
Just a slong as I don't have to do the crafting myself.
Kalok said:My thread in and of itself doesn't speak of class based weaponry, but I get where you're coming from.
Sorry about that. Don't mean to derail things. Just trying to clarify my earlier statement.
Kalok said:Personally, I prefer class based weaponry for "accuracy sake". What I mean by that is that, yeah, a Rogue, technically, could pick up and swing a two-handed sword, but why would he want to? His class is specifically for poking things and DPS, not tanking. Other games offer that. Although I've never played it, I hear that WoW does that. If we're going to remove class based weaponry, maybe we should do away with classes altogether and just let people train in whatever skill they want? Want to assassinate people AND be able to use magic? Go for it. To me, that would be silly. I'm sure that someone out there would absolutely love that idea, however.
I do think we need class based weapons, to differentiation the classes. I just think it shouldn't be a hardcoded "I can't even equip it" deal. My view is that my Monk should be able to pick up/use a sword but never be able to advance farther than that basic implementation, while a warrior should be able to cause devastation with it.
Kalok said:Back on the topic of my idea, I had some additional thoughts last night. If one of the prerequisites for smithing a skill based weapon was to utilize a dropped weapon, in addition to utilizing other master-craftsman made components, we wouldn't have to worry about the economy being flooded with weapons, which could potentially be a problem. Maybe this could extend further into master-crafted armors and what-not too. To take it a step further, one concern would be that some dude has The Sword of Awesomeness, a skill based weapon forever and doesn't want anything else, maybe put a skill level cap on it. Not a usability cap, but a "bonus cap". So for instance, let's set you have that and it increases your chance to crit at 2.5% per 10 skill level points. Maybe make it max out at 50 skill level points, and its bonuses don't go any higher than that. It would encourage that person to eventually get rid of that weapon in favor of another, better, weapon to keep the crafting and weapons economy from stagnating.
Hi,
WoW classic had level class weapons. But those limitations did not add a positive value to the game play. You had a good dagger in your bag but you couldn't equip it. I guess Blizzard made it so for balancing reasons.
Greetings
My thoughts on all of this. Disclaimer: It's Friday, and I am at work posting this from my phone. Sorry for any incoherence :)
First when it comes to how weapons should work themselves, I am in favor of letting anyone do basic autoattack with any weapon they can pick up. Skill level should affect hit chance and damage. Skill level should also determine what "fancy" things you can do - everything from parries and double attacks to disarms and sweeps and special moves. Class choice should determine caps for various skill levels, though everyone should be able to gain at least a little skill.
In terms of itemization, I feel like their should be a graduation of power between items. A rusty bronze sword isn't as strong as an iron sword, which isn't as strong as a superior steel sword, which isn't as strong as the Sword of Defiance that comes from the treasure vault in the ancient fortress. In order to prevent the headaches that can come from thinking out lower level characters I am ok with artificial restrictions on higher power items - either based on level or skill. That said if there is a way to do it more organically I am all for that. I just can't think of a good one right now.
As a crafter it is very important to me that the economy works, and that means that their needs to be demand both for low power gear and high power gear. What is the point of being able to craft iron longswords if everyone just goes straight to mythril? I also think it is very important that crafted gear be competitive with looted stuff. I don't want crafted items to be regarded as filler because that devalues crafting. However I think that a coexistence can be achieved by being smart about how items enter the game.
I posted this in another thread in the crafting forum, but what I think would work is simply varying the drops. Sometimes, the drop is a finished piece. Other times, the dtop is a broken/damaged piece that acrafter can "reforge", with the right materials. And sometimes the drop is a component that a crafter can do something awesome with. All three methods should produce items of equivalent power, but those items should be distinct so that they are not viewed as interchangeable. Crafting and adventuring should have a symbiotic relationship - meaning that adventurers can achieve greater levels of power using crafted items at all levels, but also that in order to make those high powered items, crafters need the things adventurers bring back.
I will close by saying that one of the things that always makes me unhappy with games, as a crafter, is when other players don't value the things that I can make, because there are quest rewards or drops that are better and easy to get. Do not get me wrong. I support having nice drops and quest rewards. But they shouldn't be so easy to obtain that the crafted alternatives become worthless in the eyes of players.
kellindil said:The issue I have with this is that, if these weapons are better then eventually they will become "required" by the elitists. Poeple will be turned down in raids because they do not have these weapons. Now that means I am forced into tradeskilling, which I hate. Being forced into gameplay that I do not want to engage in just to be accepted is an issue I have. I dislike that type of design.
Maybe having these weapons derive their bonuses from other skills would be a better design? Like for Rogues having a dagger that gets a damage bonus if your "apply poinson" skill, assuming such existed, was at a certain level. Combat skills should tie into supporting combat skills in my opinion instead of tradeskills.
Similarly, tradeskill items like hammers and chisels might get the same treatment and get bonuses depending on the level of mining skill or some such.
This for me would make more sense as if I am focused on tradeskilling, then I will almost certainly be focused on a gathering skill as well. Similarly if I am focused on combat I would assume one would be focused on getting supporting skills up as well.
Why would you have to be a"crafter" to get into raids?? Crafted items can be purchased.
Larirawiel said:Hi,
WoW classic had level class weapons. But those limitations did not add a positive value to the game play. You had a good dagger in your bag but you couldn't equip it. I guess Blizzard made it so for balancing reasons.
Greetings
They have already said that the drop weapons will not be level based. The crafted weapon would be a completely different thing than the dropped weapon. Part of the reason I thought of this idea is to encourage crafted items and an economy around it. Not everyone wants to poke things with a sharp stick all the time. Sometimes thye want to down and make things. That would encourage those people who could then also make money from those "made things".
Nephele said:My thoughts on all of this. Disclaimer: It's Friday, and I am at work posting this from my phone. Sorry for any incoherence :)
First when it comes to how weapons should work themselves, I am in favor of letting anyone do basic autoattack with any weapon they can pick up. Skill level should affect hit chance and damage. Skill level should also determine what "fancy" things you can do - everything from parries and double attacks to disarms and sweeps and special moves. Class choice should determine caps for various skill levels, though everyone should be able to gain at least a little skill.
In terms of itemization, I feel like their should be a graduation of power between items. A rusty bronze sword isn't as strong as an iron sword, which isn't as strong as a superior steel sword, which isn't as strong as the Sword of Defiance that comes from the treasure vault in the ancient fortress. In order to prevent the headaches that can come from thinking out lower level characters I am ok with artificial restrictions on higher power items - either based on level or skill. That said if there is a way to do it more organically I am all for that. I just can't think of a good one right now.
As a crafter it is very important to me that the economy works, and that means that their needs to be demand both for low power gear and high power gear. What is the point of being able to craft iron longswords if everyone just goes straight to mythril? I also think it is very important that crafted gear be competitive with looted stuff. I don't want crafted items to be regarded as filler because that devalues crafting. However I think that a coexistence can be achieved by being smart about how items enter the game.
I posted this in another thread in the crafting forum, but what I think would work is simply varying the drops. Sometimes, the drop is a finished piece. Other times, the dtop is a broken/damaged piece that acrafter can "reforge", with the right materials. And sometimes the drop is a component that a crafter can do something awesome with. All three methods should produce items of equivalent power, but those items should be distinct so that they are not viewed as interchangeable. Crafting and adventuring should have a symbiotic relationship - meaning that adventurers can achieve greater levels of power using crafted items at all levels, but also that in order to make those high powered items, crafters need the things adventurers bring back.
I will close by saying that one of the things that always makes me unhappy with games, as a crafter, is when other players don't value the things that I can make, because there are quest rewards or drops that are better and easy to get. Do not get me wrong. I support having nice drops and quest rewards. But they shouldn't be so easy to obtain that the crafted alternatives become worthless in the eyes of players.
I'm disappointed because I took the topic a whole different way in that the weapons would be unusual, meaning something beyond the typical sword, dagger, hammer, stave, etc. Like a Bola, not used to cause damage but rather to snare. Thus non-magic wielders could, in a pinch or emergency, use a Bola to snare something for at least a short period of time. It would be a one-time use item, non-stackable to limit it being more desirable than a caster with a snare spell.
But anyway, carry on with the how the topic has progressed so far. I like the idea of some weapons being limited by skill ability and other limited by level. Lets have some limited by both.
There is a huuuuuge issue with having crafted items be relevant and powerful beyond the upper levels of crafting though, which is that the item economy can MUCH more quickly become flooded. If for example there is a sought after sword on the server; 3 comparable swords that drop from 3 different zones/named mobs around level 30 with a 40% drop rate and spawns every hour then you'd end up with close to 30 drops per day average in total of the 3(assuming all are killed exactly upon spawn with no timer variance). Now let's say there are crafters that can do equal (or better), maybe 50 blacksmiths want to get in on this market so now you end up with nearly triple the amount available in one day alone. Without heavy cooldowns or extreme rarity crafters can easily flood markets, especially as a server matures. Now this is of course all hypothetical, since as we currently know it there won't be level restrictions for gear and they won't scale down stats to the users level.
In the current known system most people will likely pass the best gear they can get/buy to their alts, which trends more heavily toward the top items as the server matures. How can crafting compete against such items when not nearing the upper levels of the craft? More importantly: Why should it? In the bottom 75% skill level of a crafting profession you should pretty much only (with perhaps very limited exceptions/consumeable) be gearing people with "good" items on a new server/new (first run) players or otherwise just offering cheaper gear compared to merchants. There shouldn't be anything special about the player character making some bronze armor or a steel sword other than being able to offer it at a good price compared to npc merchants, as the player is just some journyman crafter at that point who is probably just learning how to make these things. I feel crafters shouldn't really have the ability to make quality/magical/comparable gear to magical/stat dungeon/world drops (for the most part) until they are experts/masters of their craft, even then it should be quite rare to get the items necessary and/or maybe the schematic is the rare drop AND a one time use requiring the player to find another schematic if they want to make a second of the item.
Something just doesn't sit right with me allowing crafters to keep on par with dungeons save for upper tiers of the craft/character level, which should still see the flow of items they can make be low so they can't flood servers compared to mob drop rates.
Either way, it's a very tight rope to balance which is probably why crafting hasn't really advanced in 10+ years. I feel like we will be stuck until crafting actually takes skill to perform well in a game and not just gather components and hit craft or some predicable mini-game where you hit buttons in set orders where maybe something bad happens and you just hit the corresponding "fix it" button. Maybe you make the good items an active group effort of 6+ crafters working together on something, passing back and forth for 30+ minutes with a high chance of failure depending on how knowledgable and skilled they are as a player. Maybe crafting a magical/powerful item just takes a very long amount of time and effort from the player spanning hours, carefully crafting and inspecting each part of the whole until the final construction/combination of all parts.
Vandraad said:I'm disappointed because I took the topic a whole different way in that the weapons would be unusual, meaning something beyond the typical sword, dagger, hammer, stave, etc. Like a Bola, not used to cause damage but rather to snare. Thus non-magic wielders could, in a pinch or emergency, use a Bola to snare something for at least a short period of time. It would be a one-time use item, non-stackable to limit it being more desirable than a caster with a snare spell.
But anyway, carry on with the how the topic has progressed so far. I like the idea of some weapons being limited by skill ability and other limited by level. Lets have some limited by both.
That is always a possibility as well. Maybe a magic user of sufficuent level could be included in some rare instances to give a special weapon a special ability, like a clicky cast.
Really, anything could be done with this. It would all be up to the Devs.