In this months newsletter "State of the Game" they say..
"Initial economy design has begun to take shape, with lots of care being given to proper and sustainable implementation."
When it comes to an economy, what do you think is ment by "proper and sustainable implementation" ?
Ideally I would say fixed resources based on realistic environmental options to create temporary scarcity. Trees grow back, but the are still finite short term. Ore can only be transported so fast from mine to shops. Fish stocks run out, or migrate, and can't be relied upon. That sort of thing. But this would be extreme.
You could accomplish the same controlled inflation by putting an NPC between the player and rest of the economy, or just artificially control pricing. I think it will boil down to high value trades, and heavy coin sinks. Maybe they have some brand new ideas.
I just want my Pie empire to flourish.
(this "Off topic" part of my post here, is the WHOLE purpose of my post. Because it is not off topic. I want, this game to offer me the ability to build a "Crafting Empire", as the foundation for the economy, so please don't report me and get my post edited in a way that removes the meaning, that's not very nice). My Pie Empire is not off topic. It is my point. Sorry if you missed that part. I tried to make it fun and subtle.
Zorkon said:In this months newsletter "State of the Game" they say..
"Initial economy design has begun to take shape, with lots of care being given to proper and sustainable implementation."
When it comes to an economy, what do you think is ment by "proper and sustainable implementation" ?
I don't know much about economics but I would assume that it would be things like balancing the difficulty of obtaining items (either by killing mobs, questing or crafting) with the value of the item on the player market.
You don't want the best sword in the game to be common and cheap. Likewise you don't want a simple dagger to be rare and expensive.
I think that the hardest part to work on when it comes to this is crafting items because players who dedicate themselves to crafting need to be able to make money from their craft years after the game has been released. If the first crafters in the game can flood the market then future crafters won't be able to make any money because of the lowering of the value of those items based on an over abundance of items on the market from previous crafters.
Based on all their previous press releases, updates, videos, podcasts, interviews and posts, about all I can be sure of is:
It doesn't mean what we think it means. "proper and sustainable implementation" could mean anything. It's so vague you might as well write "good and done right". It would have about the same value, imo.
At least they haven't spent their funding on another waste-of-money economist. If I had a nickel for every MMO that hired an economist but still had infinite gold taps, well, I'd have a lot of nickels. :)
(A) As ZennExile highlights, finite resources, replenishment rates and transportation delay would be ideal,
but an MMO is an imperfect copy of the real world and so has compromises.
The best we can hope for is an economy that has consistent meta rules, allowing players to put as much, or as little, energy and time into affecting/building it up in whatever area suits their fancy. So we can certainly hope for as many parts of the economy to be modeled as possible, thus allowing players as much freedom to participate in it as possible.
Eaxmple of an area that could be modeled: Price effects (+ or -)
Iron Ore
1. Dwarven miners work to excavate iron ore
Orc interference may slow production, unless countered: (++)
Bounties or 'for hire' notices may be posted to protect them. (+)
Religeous interference may cause miners to strike (++)
Rival miners competing for market share (--)
2. Local wagoners ship it to the city
Bandit attacks may lose some shipments (+)
Wagons may hire guards for protection (+)
Law enforcement may offer offer bounties for known bandits (-)
Shipping consignments may be offered (-)
3. City bureaucrats get 1st purchase for city needs
City at war or building projects may increase 'need' (++)
Corruption may case 'shrinkage' of ore purchased (+)
4. Residue Iron ore lots are sold at auction
Interference (bidding) may raise prices (+)
5. NPCs buy up lots to fulfil consignment requests (eg by Smithies)
3rd party consignments may be issued to cover any shortfall (+)
6. Surplus iron ore is sold/traded locally or shipped (price dependent)
Large surpluses may force down local prices (--)
Foreign traders may offer remote consignments to be filled. (+)
I am not saying you would be able to implement all of this, but if the 'chain' is created which models the economics for that commodity, then it can be affected by players (for better or worse).
(B) As Vjek suggests, hiring an economist is probably not the best thing to do;
for a start, no two economists can ever agree on any given point!
I would, instead, suggest getting help from a Mathematician/Statistician, amateur or otherwise.
Once your models are in place and being tested, you should be able to look at the data generated to work out how your system is performing. The more they are used, the more data is generated. As long as robust and accurate methods for data capture are used, you should soon begin to see how the flow of money and goods within your economy is working.
PS: While both late Alpha and early Beta may provide a rough snapshot of the system's health,
... only live gameplay will actually let you to know for sure!
Evoras, has thought of at least 4 ways to measure the height of the Mad Wizard's Tower using gnomes!
A few thoughts on the economy of an MMO:
- Given that resources (harvest and mining nodes, NPC enemies, treasure caches, etc.) typically respawn, the result is a net increase of value in the world economy. This leads to the devaluation of coin and consequently inflation. The single most used means of combatting this is through sinks, mechanics through which money or other resources are permanently removed from the game. So far, nothing new. VR have already talked about one particular sink, namely the ability to sacrifice items. Seems like a great idea.
- One point that I've rarely seen addressed is how inflation affects new players disproportionately. Come into the game a few months/years in and the most basic items are priced exorbitantly high. At the same time, new players may find themselves throwing much of their money into indiscriminate sinks. For a successful, long-lasting community-driven game, I feel this should be on VR's mind. Sinks should scale with progression, demanding more from higher-level players than from newer ones. This means, for instance, that if skills are to be bought/trained at NPCs, with the price removed from the economy, they should be very affordable initially, but represent a higher investment later on. Also, hoarding should be somewhat penalised, maybe with a progressive tax on bank deposits in combination with enough stuff to spend in-game money on: housing, consumables, vanity items, etc.
- Two issues that should be permanently watched are gold farming and economy-impacting exploits such as item duplication. The former typically uses legitimate mechanics, e.g. hunting high-spawn, high-drop mobs. Sometimes it includes botting or speed-hacking or some other cheat, which should never be allowed. Other than that, VR should keep an eye on what farmers are doing and adjust accordingly. As for the latter, it's essential that VR have a zero-tolerance policy on exploiting. I don't really care if exploiters are banned on first offence or go through a warning-suspension-ban process, but the message must be clear that exploiting will have consequences. In any case, ill-gotten gains have to be removed from the game. I've seen cases of players banned but thousands of duped items left in, which ruined the economy of a game.
- Reward different play styles and activities through a robust crafting system. Have raiders get rare drops usable by crafters to make stuff to sell back to raiders. Don't make crafts so trivial that anyone can make hundreds of food items, potions, weapons, etc. in such a short time that those items will sell for next to nothing.
Here's my 10 minute "proper and sustainable" crafting system, from this morning. :) Criticize away.
Neither gold nor equipable items drop from creatures directly.
So, if you want something to have value or get something from it, you salvage, sacrifice, repair or refine it.
Salvage and sacrifice do not require fuel. Sacrifice generates buffs & faction. Salvage generates raw materials.
Repair consumes both fuel and raw materials.
Refining consumes fuel.
The only source of fuel are faction vendors. You can only buy the fuel with faction.
Players produce everything, either directly themselves via crafting combines, or by paying faction NPCs, with faction, to perform crafting combines for them.
A typical hunting->crafting loop would be:
- kill 20 bandits while questing, adventuring, exploring.
-- the loot from those bandits is a bunch of broken items, and some consumables. These items have no sale value to NPCs. You can use the consumables in the field, but you can't equip the broken items.
--- actions of: salvage, sacrifice, repair or refine produces: faction, raw materials, buffs.
--- sacrifice of broken items generates faction. sacrifice of repaired items generates faction & buffs.
--- salvage of broken/repaired items generates raw materials. Raw materials have no sale value to NPCs.
---- faction is required and consumed to obtain fuel
----- fuel is required and consumed to refine.
----- fuel & raw materials are used to repair broken items. Repaired items can be equipped, sold to NPCs or other players, salvaged, or sacrificed. Faction NPC's can perform repairs, by consuming faction.
----- buffs from sacrifice are used to start the hunting loop again.
How do you make things? Combines of repaired items and/or raw materials and/or refined materials.
How can you make armor & weapons? Repair broken items or combines of repaired items and/or raw materials and/or refined materials.
How can you get gold? Repair broken items (or spend faction and have an NPC repair broken items) and sell the repaired items to NPCs or players. Or sell whatever other things you make to players.
What do you spend gold on? In this context: Consumables/buffs/services from faction/normal NPCs, and/or whatever players are selling.
The acquisition of broken items can occur in cities, towns and villages without the need for combat via trading, questing, delivery, diplomacy or similar non-combat loops.
Raw materials can include harvested items as well as tradeable colored mana vials which are only generated from salvaging broken items from particular zones/areas/regions. E for Environment.
@vjek So your system is really interesting to read. Although it makes the game complicated .. If I want to go as a player only instances, I have to do the repair of another player. But how can I afford it? That I am an instant-goer am forced to do other tasks? No worries, that was not serious I play every aspect of the game. The idea is really good, but the implementation .. What is then what can be linked to everything, which object do you need to fix everything and who can repair it? Are there any professions for this or are there any professional repairs? e.g. a blacksmith can only repair chains and plates?
But otherwise I would introduce such a system. Certainly better than to introduce a more regular drop system.
greets gaspel
Gaspel said:@vjek So your system is really interesting to read. Although it makes the game complicated .. If I want to go as a player only instances, I have to do the repair of another player. But how can I afford it? That I am an instant-goer am forced to do other tasks? No worries, that was not serious I play every aspect of the game. The idea is really good, but the implementation .. What is then what can be linked to everything, which object do you need to fix everything and who can repair it? Are there any professions for this or are there any professional repairs? e.g. a blacksmith can only repair chains and plates?
But otherwise I would introduce such a system. Certainly better than to introduce a more regular drop system.
greets gaspel
No need to find another player. You can do it all yourself OR pay an NPC with faction, OR find another player. Lots of options. The currency is faction which you get yourself from sacrifice.
First, have you guys read my various posts/dev diaries on MUDflation and how we intend to address it? If not, please do so as it should clarify quite a bit.
In a nutshell, what we meant by that was we are starting to nail down merchant pricing, absolute value of an item, etc. The beginnings of what we need for a player driven economy.
(btw, buying/sellling/trading from NPCs and PCs has been in for a while functionally -- I'm talking more about some solid spreadsheets charting out proposed values and getting those initial more planned out values into the game for PA1).
Chimerical said:I've noticed pre-alpha being abbreviated PA1. Is pre-alpha now going to be broken up into more than one phase? PA1, PA2 etc.? Or am I reading too much into this?
Internally we are breaking it up into phases -- what effect that has on you guys, if any, is TBD.
Aradune said:First, have you guys read my various posts/dev diaries on MUDflation and how we intend to address it? If not, please do so as it should clarify quite a bit.
In a nutshell, what we meant by that was we are starting to nail down merchant pricing, absolute value of an item, etc. The beginnings of what we need for a player driven economy.
(btw, buying/sellling/trading from NPCs and PCs has been in for a while functionally -- I'm talking more about some solid spreadsheets charting out proposed values and getting those initial more planned out values into the game for PA1).
Yep, read those, but there's every indication (from those) that gold & equippable items will drop directly as loot from vanquished foes/creatures/humanoids.
As long as that's the case, gold taps are infinite and can be amplified by abusing the mechanics that have been outlined thus far for handling overcrowding.
So, unless you're confirming gold & equippable items won't drop directly as loot from vanquished foes/creatures/humanoids ... :)
It has been pointed out time and time again that mobs will drop currency and equipable items and things which can be crafted into equipable items. A sustainable economy can deal with the infinite flow from such sources by carefully monitoring the entire world supply of currency, create regional prices for NPC supplied items, allow for buybacks from NPCs (at markup) and any number of other options like dynamic pricing based upon supply and demand.
I think the only detail that matters right now is, What are you basing the absolute values on, and will resource scarcity play a role in how you plan to control pricing?
And on a side note: Will my Pie empire be able to make a public offering and become global?