Browsing through the forums, and on Massively, I read again about the Perception System, and a few questions came to mind:
Say I am a late adopter, and I don't get into the game until years after release. Assuming that the questing sytem doesn't get a fair share of solo-based quests, and quests obtained via the Perception System are group-only, wouldn't that mean that I would be relatively shut out from doing those quests obtained this way?
What if no one chooses to run the questline you discover?
I know there will be that one jerk (or guild of jerks) that will find some hard to discover questline, and offer to "sell" access to it for some obscene amount of gold. Will there be any system in place to counter something like this becoming a thing?
To play Devil's Advocate, one friend of mine read the same things, and stated that the system would be annoying (in way more colorful words and tones), and some people might be tempted to simply not play the questing system (or even the game in general) until someone figures out how to unlock the different quest discoveries. Since we move at the speed of information now with wikis, etc, wouldn't those who worked hard to discover/solve some of these perception quests feel a bit cheated when late adopters simply fire up a wiki page, print out a list, and do in minutes what might have taken days/weeks/months?
I'd love to hear what you guys think (assuming my questions aren't too dumb). Thanks for reading. :)
Xailin said:I know there will be that one jerk (or guild of jerks) that will find some hard to discover questline, and offer to "sell" access to it for some obscene amount of gold. Will there be any system in place to counter something like this becoming a thing?
The only people that can stop that are the developers, via in-game mechanics that prevent it.
Otherwise, if it can be done by the players (including all things toxic) it will be done by players, as much as possible.
Can you clarify how a guild would block "access" to a quest? And how their ability to block access would be different under a perception system than under any other questing system?
As for your point about information spreading on the internet.... yea, that is how things work today. There will be third party sites that host this kind of information. Players can use it or not depending on their preferences. I don't see the big issue here. I doubt any of the front runners will be that upset if people who come after them have more information to use.
You also asked about people who come late to the game and whether they'd have anyone to quest with. That's really a question of how to keep a sever properly populated at all levels. The VR team is well aware of how important that issue is and the mentoring system, the progeny system, and good server balancing will likely be the primary tools to address it.
It will be assumed that a) You are not new to MMORPGs and b) You want to play a game that forces you to depend on other players in the community.
This sort of makes all those conserns meaningless, even without mechanics supporting a new player experience. Seeking out other players will technically be the New Player Experience. That is what you should be playing Pantheon to do. Right?
It's one of those things that none of us knows exactly how it will pan out. They will do the best they can. I'm keeping optimistic.
That being said lol, I'm hoping it's not like the story cinematics in SWToR that were advertised as being the next best thing but in reality, after the first week many players couldn't space bar through them fast enough.
The worst case scenario would be that there are perception pop ups spaming your screen and hindering gameplay. I have faith it won't come to that.
No one can ransom quests off, the Perception system is not something anyone else can control, you run by an NPC (that is unkillable or blockable) and an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Kilsin said:No one can ransom quests off, the Perception system is not something anyone else can control, you run by an NPC (that is unkillable or blockable) and an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Oxymoron IMO
Shots fired. Sort of agree though. I really hope more than text drives this system. Sounds, mob behavior, random weirdness. I want it all. I want to find hidden caves because a barely perceptible trail of tiny insects leads from the road to their nest inside the cave. I want to see birds flying away from hidden danger, and storms brewing over arcane experiments. I want a foul smell and a talking bird that blames you, and leads you through the forest with cheeky one-liners about how bad you smell.
Is that too much to ask?
Zorkon said:Kilsin said:No one can ransom quests off, the Perception system is not something anyone else can control, you run by an NPC (that is unkillable or blockable) and an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Oxymoron IMO
Not really, it is a first person thought, for example, you're running along through a field to cut through to a town to bank/mail whatever and a thought crosses your mind "You think to yourself that the strange screams may be someone in need of help".
That's it, that is all there is to it, ignore the "thought/perception" or check it out, it doesn't affect your gameplay or interrupt anything, it is just your character thinking to themselves occasionally as they pass through a perception trigger and being that we have said there will be fewer quests in Pantheon it isn't like you will be spammed with this stuff all the time.
Having read the piece on perception on Massively a few things occur to me:
1. Wiggle room
They seem to have a 'definite' view on how the perception will work ... perhaps a better idea that Brad at this point! Since this view presents Pantheon in a good light and, for all I know, may be accurate - then I am all for the piece since it promotes discussion and interest. It might have been nice to have given some limits on what he has as 'fact' and where inference and supposition begin for all the newcomers who have finally found out about Pantheon!
2. Group 'Quests'
From what we have seen and heard from the DEVs so far.... it isn't that there are 'Group Quests' as such, but rather that the quests you have perceived may be shared with your group (I imagine some system would be needed to ensure access to keyed areas etc) if you wish and that the eventual locations you may need to travel to in order to complete the quest are so deep within a sangerous area that you would need a group to be able to get to it.
3. Immersion of quest cues
I think Kilsin was suggesting that the quest cues were not so blatant/jarring as to break immersion (eg Neon exclamation mark above their head), particularly when seeking out parts of the quest in far flung places. The original VR perception clip had the player receive a 'theres something odd here' type message when they walked close enough to a quest trigger.
4. Visual/Auditory cues
I would also love there to be more than merely textual quest cues/triggers, but I imagine that when it comes to balancing the various DEV time commitments that the priority will be to put the perception 'meta' in place (how it works etc) and use what DEV-time they have left to implement the quest lines needed with basic cues (mainly text I am sure). Perhaps later (in an XPAC?) the newer ones can be visual/auditory and even behavioural and some older cues can be replaced by more nuanced versions.
5. What we know...
For more information on Perception, I suggest (re-)watching the two clips VR did which considered Perception:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO3MuXT7GrU ; [Start at Time stamp 40mins:30secs]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Ox1GpNUe0
Evoras, knows he would need to remove all formatting and mash it up to be ready for posting at MassivelyOP
Kilsin said:an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Kils, will there be an option to have it only "pop up" in another window that you can close? Maybe with a small number notification similar to email or whatever? It seems like notifications poping up on my screen unexpectedly could be very distracting.
ZennExile said:Shots fired. Sort of agree though. I really hope more than text drives this system. Sounds, mob behavior, random weirdness. I want it all. I want to find hidden caves because a barely perceptible trail of tiny insects leads from the road to their nest inside the cave. I want to see birds flying away from hidden danger, and storms brewing over arcane experiments. I want a foul smell and a talking bird that blames you, and leads you through the forest with cheeky one-liners about how bad you smell.
Is that too much to ask?
*You get a whiff of a seems to be a delicious cherry pie coming from the direction of what appears to be a cave. As you glance in the direction of the cave, you see for the briefest of moments what appeared to be an undead Ogre chasing a Gnome into the cave.*
Im a little surprised that people wouldn't want a brief message alerting you to abnormal going on signaling the perception system. Is it immersion breaking when you are playing Pillars of Eternity and your perception system goes off alerting you to something you can interact with while in stealth?
philo said:Kilsin said:an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Kils, will there be an option to have it only "pop up" in another window that you can close? Maybe with a small number notification similar to email or whatever? It seems like notifications poping up on my screen unexpectedly could be very distracting.
It can appear in the chat window or in a pop-up window at the top of the screen, I am sure the devs will tweak some options in to tailor the message delivery to personal preferences but for testing it will probably remain as those options.
I mean, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
Would love to see how it's going to play out first before complaining about a game mechanic. Sure it could be a make or break mechanic with the perception system and all (if it's not done properly), but I mean, did we choose Pantheon for a specific type of questing or the fact that it's suppose to bring back some nostalgia older games like EQ2 gave us.
Games survive in their own ways. And luckily for everyone else, someone seems to have done it perfectly enough where you don't even have to play Pantheon if it doesn't do it according to your liking. I keep seeing lots of people saying "This is how it should be". But, lets be honest, it wouldn't be Pantheon if it was just like every other game.
To add to the discussion though, I'm with a few people on the whole creating something totally different other than just a text box or something. Like actually hearing it or seeing - as someone else said - a trail of insects leading into a forest or cave. Heck, I'd settle for bread crumbs. Maybe body parts from a creature that eats a specific race (too much like a horror game?). However, I'm sure that would just add to the time it would take to get the game out doing everything different in that sense. Plus, trying to hire voice actors probably isn't quite in their budget yet.
I just hope they do it right for the first year. Even if it's not perfect. Because then there's a chance for money income and much better gaming material in the next xpac.
Kilsin said:Not really, it is a first person thought, for example, you're running along through a field to cut through to a town to bank/mail whatever and a thought crosses your mind "You think to yourself that the strange screams may be someone in need of help".
Zazzaro said:*You get a whiff of a seems to be a delicious cherry pie coming from the direction of what appears to be a cave. As you glance in the direction of the cave, you see for the briefest of moments what appeared to be an undead Ogre chasing a Gnome into the cave.*
Quick comment and feedback.
I know this is an example but this goes back to MUD days and building worlds using text alone. It was considered not favorable to use the word "you" or force the player to be/think a certain way or force a thought onto the player if it could be worded in a more passive way.
In Kilsin's example it would be better to have it go something like this, "Strange screams can be heard in the distance".
or "A sudden breeze flows through the trees carring a faint echo of strange screams in the distance."
This lets the player form their own thoughts about the enviroment and what is going on. It would allow them to act how they choose.
I hope the devs consider this rather then using then forcing a mental state on the player which they may not want to help the people and may actually be excited to see the brutality in action.
Minor detail but it helps with immersion if there isnt alot of You feel this, You see this, You think this. Soandso makes you this way. etc
But just my opinion based on past experiences. Either way Im sure it will be a fun system.
Kilsin said:It can appear in the chat window or in a pop-up window at the top of the screen, I am sure the devs will tweak some options in to tailor the message delivery to personal preferences but for testing it will probably remain as those options.
That's the solution right there. Out of the way text in the chat box I can work with. My minds eye can easly hear those "Strange screams in the distance".
But comeing up and put a sign in my face that says "Strange Screams in the Distance" liable to get you a black eye.
Maybe we could get a feedback pop-up if we click on the text in the chat window? Then everyone can weigh in on what feels right for the context as it happens, but without a forced pop-up. I would click it.
But then again I would replace the entire chat system with #derpyBirdys... I can't be trusted.
Xailin said:Browsing through the forums, and on Massively, I read again about the Perception System, and a few questions came to mind:
Say I am a late adopter, and I don't get into the game until years after release. Assuming that the questing sytem doesn't get a fair share of solo-based quests, and quests obtained via the Perception System are group-only, wouldn't that mean that I would be relatively shut out from doing those quests obtained this way?
What if no one chooses to run the questline you discover?
I know there will be that one jerk (or guild of jerks) that will find some hard to discover questline, and offer to "sell" access to it for some obscene amount of gold. Will there be any system in place to counter something like this becoming a thing?
To play Devil's Advocate, one friend of mine read the same things, and stated that the system would be annoying (in way more colorful words and tones), and some people might be tempted to simply not play the questing system (or even the game in general) until someone figures out how to unlock the different quest discoveries. Since we move at the speed of information now with wikis, etc, wouldn't those who worked hard to discover/solve some of these perception quests feel a bit cheated when late adopters simply fire up a wiki page, print out a list, and do in minutes what might have taken days/weeks/months?
I'd love to hear what you guys think (assuming my questions aren't too dumb). Thanks for reading. :)
It is my understanding that the Perception quest system is one of the ways that they encourage exploration rather than being a primary means of advancement. So it should probably be seen as just that. If you or a group member have chosen to be a Lorekeeper and can utilize that system to see things I don't know why the group wouldn't want to explore it for possible loot or additional XP. But if they don't, perhaps the next group will.
I don't know to what degree this might be, but the Perception system could possibly function like Vanguard's old Advanced Encounter System idea that didn't quite pan out. That's a speculatory assumption of possibilities on my part, and given we don't know too much about the system still we'll have to wait and see. But in short, those quests could be limited in how they're done, so camping them may not be a thing. It really depends on how they do it, but I get what your concern is. ESO a while back learned a painful lesson about easy mobs and open dungeons as bots quickly took over the dungeon. Pantheon mobs won't be quite as simple, so maybe that particular problem will fix itself.
In regards to the solo quests, I'm sure there will be some, but it's also important to know what you're getting with Pantheon if you don't already. It is a primarily group-focused game, but it will have some solo stuff as well. Just know what you're getting in to.
As for Wiki pages, that's simply an inevitability these days. There's not much the devs can, nor really should do, about them at this point. They're part of the community and have their place like many other things.
I'll touch on your friend and the jerks as my last two things on this. First, the jerks! There have always been jerks in MMORPGs, but they have expanded their army of inconciderate jackwaddles in the last decade. So I expect we will see plenty of them. However, if we're lucky, Pantheon will hail a return to server reputation that can help curtail some of that. But a jackwaddle is going to jackwaddle.
On the topic of your friend, he may be right, he may be wrong. It's too early to tell. We'll find out in time but there are ways to put s into place to add a level of randomness or some change to it. We'll see when we learn more. I certainly can see plenty of cons if it's done wrong. But hopefully the pros can outweigh them.
Kilsin said:philo said:Kilsin said:an immersive message pops up on your screen, it does not hinder you actions or ability to continue doing what you were doing, you can ignore it and keep fightings, running, swimming, talking etc. or choose to check it out further and see where it leads.
Kils, will there be an option to have it only "pop up" in another window that you can close? Maybe with a small number notification similar to email or whatever? It seems like notifications poping up on my screen unexpectedly could be very distracting.
It can appear in the chat window or in a pop-up window at the top of the screen, I am sure the devs will tweak some options in to tailor the message delivery to personal preferences but for testing it will probably remain as those options.
I should hope it does. Immersion is great but there have to be some concessions for gameplay. Short of Eli Musk's neurojack being shoved into our heads I think we might need some indication of a thing that's a thing to do in the place. :p
I can go anywhere in the Mt Rainer National Forest and tell you with near absolute certainty what plants you can eat, where fresh water is from your location, how many animals of what species have been through over the past 3 to 5 days, and whether or not there is a hidden camp or cave nearby. I have been finding hidden places in the shadow of the mountain since I was very young. It is not because I have pop-up text notices. It is because I can see the little details. Those are my pop-ups. Trails of insects, weird smells, torn underbrush, scratched bark, a whistling sound as air passes a cave, smoke above the trees, birds reacting to a disturbance, the smell of water. I could go on for hours about all the little indicators found in just this Forest.
And I could easily create those little details in Unity. I could see clicking on something you notice, and having a text description displayed. But just text, I don't feel ok about that.
It takes me very little effort to think of ways to exchange text for immersion buffers that add to the experience rather than direct traffic.
Even if it is not financially reasonable to flesh out everything to such a fine degree, some attention to mechanics like this would go a very long way toward making the world feel alive. And giving the player a sense that the game world is experiencing them, rather than the other way around. There is nothing I value in level design more. The world has to feel alive, or I am just not compelled to be in it.
ZennExile said:Even if it is not financially reasonable to flesh out everything to such a fine degree, some attention to mechanics like this would go a very long way toward making the world feel alive. And giving the player a sense that the game world is experiencing them, rather than the other way around. There is nothing I value in level design more. The world has to feel alive, or I am just not compelled to be in it.
I'm uncertain if that was directed at me or not but let me add a couple of things to my jesting bit of a statement. And while I can't say I climb mountains to find food in streams we will agree on this a bit. Yes, I too would very much like to see things that guide you to do things and stuff by a thing rather than a pop up window. It was part of the joy of getting away from the ? quests. However, barring that in some cases a bit of text in the chat window (or optionally as a pop up if you so choose in the options menu) can be delivered in such a way as it was an internal thought or observation, much in the same way that a dungeon master might deliver some text to a character after they make a successful Perception check roll in a D&D game.
I know they're not popular and if they are used they should be used creatively and spareingly. But that was my observation along with an attempt at a little light-hearted humor.
I must agree, especially considering these are still sort of "dev forums" (are they?) - approaching a curious phenomenon without text seems more interesting -> fun than being pointed toward things. I think it's more satisfying for the player to notice something that looks different, investigate it, and be validated by finding something interesting. It would open our eyes more while playing. A woman could just be crying on the side of the road, light could just glint noticeably off a key on the ground, haunting sounds could come from a disturbing, large hole in the ground (that we'd need to jump into) at the end of a mountain trail. And for those times when we're in a dark dungeon and it'd be unrealistic to see light glinting off a key, we could have some subtle text clue. Maybe this is where the perception system could change - only give text clues for those things our characters couldn't normally be expected to see/hear.
However, it would take more work from the devs, maybe an unacceptable amount - to personally decide how a hundred+ little "quests" could be reasonably discovered without a text clue. But it'd also give them the opportunity to put some truly hard-to-find, obscure things in the game - though we know they're doing that already. These devs freaking rock, no doubt - and these little pointers from the community are just our way of sharing our enthusiasm with the devs.
But then what to do with the whole system of perception? Would there be one? If we don't discover people in need of help, key items, or interesting locations through points invested in a skill system, and instead are expected to just notice these things, is there any place for a skill-set perception system that any character could have access to?
Maybe such a system could be "knowledge" instead of perception. This system could maybe be trained, "studied," with teachers, and, as its level increased, would open a character to understanding different obscure languages inscribed in places found around the world, 1-2 line "histories" about interesting locations around the world, what weaknesses enemies of a certain environment might have, rare item lore, maybe even background information on NPCs given the character's familiarity with cultures. It could be a skill like a tradeskill that would cost gold to improve. Then any character, if they spent the money, could become "learned." Maybe the skill could even be related to the character's intelligence value. This skill would be in addition to, and not replacing, the class-specific "perception" skills - including navigating traps for rogues, understanding magical energies for wizards, comprehending animal/natural behavior for druids, understanding dark magics for Dire Lords, being sensitive to spirit energies for Shamans, etc.
These are just ideas occurring to me now =P
And of course, I don't know how the perception system will play. We're going to play it, and until then, we don't really know what they're doing. We can infer based on the very little we've seen, but we'll be likely speaking from a very limited understanding of the entire system. Overall, thanks Visionary Realms for making this beautiful, badass game.
Hey Kilsin,
Other than different classes perceiving different types of events, can we assume a braniac like an enchanter would have a stronger perception than say an Warrior would to start off with? Or are their perceptions just different?
The perception system sounds very cool to me. It just encourages exploration which I love already. Seems like a great way to start class quests or epic class quests.