I couldn't find a thread on this, but I suspect someone may link one.
Given that leveling will require a time investment and that equipment (gear) is going to be important in Pantheon, new players who roll on a mature server might feel like they're "behind" everyone else. For me (and others I'm sure), when I'm rolling a new character, unless its intended to be an alt or a new main, I generally want a fresh realm/server over a mature one. I don't like feeling too far behind the rest of the players on my server. For games with multiple servers of different ages, that preference often results in a bunch of top-heavy, mature servers where new players generally are reluctant to roll, while the newer servers attract all the freshly rolling players. Also, sometimes I just want to relive the "fresh server" experience, because the leveling process can be fun with a big group of low level toons all rolling on a fresh server. I am curious to know your thoughts on the solutions that exist to keep healthy servers while also bringing new, fresh servers online for people who want that "fresh server" experience. What works? I think someone mentioned that some MMOs use a "season" system, which sounds interesting.
Relatedly, I was thinking about how neat the EQ1 progression servers are. But I wonder if the idea of a "progression" server could be implemented earlier in an MMO's lifetime. It seems to me that PRF could start rolling out progression servers as soon as the first expansion hits. In other words, maybe every new server (or some significant number of them) should be a progression server, so that anyone rolling on that server would get a "fresh" experience and get to re-live the full PRF storyline. Maybe the progression timeline would be slightly accelerated compared to the original progression, so that progression servers can catch up to, and eventually merge with, the more mature servers. I suppose there would be tradeoffs to taking this approach.
Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about how best to bring "fresh" servers online after the game has been launched and whether/how progression servers fit in.
Server size will most likely be determined when the game is in beta. I totally understand the whole "fresh server" thing though. Especially on PVP servers and with games where it takes almost no time to level and craft your way to max level. However, I believe it has been discussed (mostly in streams) and a fresh server would be near hard to determine. I say this because the game is meant to take longer than most MMO's out today. When the game is ready for it's first expansion, only a small group of people should even be ready for it - if at all.
Their idea is for Pantheon not to be one of those typical MMO's created today where people are max level within a few months. You're not going to have a questline to follow that leads you to 20 other quests that you can just do real quick. You're going to be exploring, A LOT, and there's no huge transportation until maybe you get a mount. The questing isn't exactly easy, you have to pretty much find your quests. Dying will be a huge thing too - with corpse runs that may take a little bit to retrieve your items. All of this adds a significant amount of time to your gameplay. Plus you have the crafting and the harvesting added as well. The group content is going to prevent people from just soloing the entire way to max level. You'll have to meet new people, make friends or at the very least be friendly enough to get into a group.
The idea with all of that said above, is fresh servers may not be needed for a while. Even if people are a bit ahead, they start alts, new people will join, leveling is slow so they may still be within your level to help you out. And then of course there is mentoring. Fresh servers are needed for those games where everyone is max level and has done all the content. Anyone can redo the old content as an alt. The issue is not being able to group with people when grouping is necessary to move forward with said alt.
But I don't doubt they might eventually bring out a fresh server. I just don't think it should or will be within the first year or two. Not if the game is done right ;) But you should keep an eye out for their streams! They usually announce when the next one is inside the newsletters. But, you could probably ask your question there and get a detailed answer of why or why not.
Thanks, both, for the responses.
@Fancy, I take your point, and I have watched all of the streams, so I have a sense of VR's initial thinking on this. But (and correct me if I'm wrong) regardless of how fast the character progression is in this game, a few months after launch, the servers that started at launch will have players that are three months ahead of newly starting players, whatever that may mean in terms of percentage-completion of content. In other words, when it comes to feeling "behind" (and wanting a "fresh" server to level the playing field), it's all relative.
As a side note, and echoing what many people have said here, there will be a substantial group of people who reach the maximum level within a few weeks, or a couple of months at most. That is just unavoidable given the type of people who are going to play Pantheon from launch. Some people will literally play 18 hours each day for the first few weeks of release. That's more game time than a casual player can invest in six months or even a year. Three months after launch, let alone six months or a year after launch, the original servers will have large populations of max-level and well-geared toons. People starting the game will be drawn to fresher servers. I really don't think PRF is going to be immune to this dilemma, even if it has a slower and more horizontal progression path, a la EQ1.
vylo said: There could be a server type where the world ends every 3-6 months, so there's always a fresh-ish server available. That might be similar to the seasonal concept you mentioned.
I think this is an interesting idea, except I wouldn't want the characters to just get deleted. If everyone knows their character is going to get deleted at the end of the season, they are probably not going to invest in their characters in the same way they otherwise would. The population would probably die out toward the end of the "season," as the server's final day draws near. Maybe they get merged into an existing server that could benefit from the additional population, although that obviously creates economy issues that may require some creative solutions.
Gnog said:Thanks, both, for the responses.
@Fancy, I take your point, and I have watched all of the streams, so I have a sense of VR's initial thinking on this. But (and correct me if I'm wrong) regardless of how fast the character progression is in this game, a few months after launch, the servers that started at launch will have players that are three months ahead of newly starting players, whatever that may mean in terms of percentage-completion of content. In other words, when it comes to feeling "behind" (and wanting a "fresh" server to level the playing field), it's all relative.
As a side note, and echoing what many people have said here, there will be a substantial group of people who reach the maximum level within a few weeks, or a couple of months at most. That is just unavoidable given the type of people who are going to play Pantheon from launch. Some people will literally play 18 hours each day for the first few weeks of release. That's more game time than a casual player can invest in six months or even a year. Three months after launch, let alone six months or a year after launch, the original servers will have large populations of max-level and well-geared toons. People starting the game will be drawn to fresher servers. I really don't think PRF is going to be immune to this dilemma, even if it has a slower and more horizontal progression path, a la EQ1.
2. There are plenty of games out there that don't allow people to push through content even after spending 18 hours in a game for several weeks. I can name a few if you seriously think that no game has ever been hard enough where people just hit max level within the first few weeks to a month. There's an offchance that someone has plenty of time on their hands and can spend 18 hours a day EVERY single day and make it to max much faster than others. But considering the circumstances there's no surprise to that really. In fact, it's almost inevitable for that sort of thing to happen. But Pantheon isn't going to be a WoW game where literally everyone and their mom takes 1 week off of work and gets max level within that week. People are going to take a week off to get AHEAD. But they won't be close to max level if Visionary Realms holds true to what they say and what they want for Pantheon.
All in all, I think it's a little too early to even think about fresh servers. No offense intended or anything. It's a good question, just a question that can't properly be answered without numbers and information from a game that is actually live or, at the very least, in beta.
Fancy, Thanks. I'm not sure what gave you the idea that I don't understand what kind of game PRF is expected to be, or why you keep talking about WoW. In any event, time will tell how quickly the hardest-core no-lifers move through the content. But setting all of that aside, you are really just punting on the question I asked, and I don't think that's really necessary. The question is stated in general terms and I was interested to know what kinds of approaches generally work to provide a fresh experience to players who didn't play from launch, without leaving the older servers to slowly die out.
I like the idea of fresh servers popping up after launch. Some people will decide to reroll for a fresh start ... I remember doing it in EQOA. I played on Direns Hold, had first level 50 enchanter on server and even raided for awhile. But eventually PPO opened up and I decided I wanted a change of scenery and to play a different class. It was 100% more appealing than rolling an alt on DH because after having the experience of a fresh server, I felt it would be easier for me to get a really good jump on the economy, farm locations, etc. So whenever a new server pops up, it's not like only new players will be going there ... it's quite likely they will see plenty of veterans as well (or possibly guilds that decide they want to restart somewhere else) to take advantage of using their launch experience on a fresh server to their advantage.
While I do not have an opinion one way or the other regarding progression type servers, I do like the idea of new servers periodically being brought online. The rules of the game will change over time and sometimes the game can become unbalanced, overpopulated, or inflated. New servers would give players a place to start over if they choose to do that.
Obviously we will not need "nostalgia" servers recreating the way things were at the rollout of Pantheon for quite a few years.
Obviously, it will make sense to roll out new ruleset servers if it proves there is a demand for them and VR determines that this outweighs the cost and potential dilution of population on older servers.
Obviously it will make sense to roll out new servers if the old ones get too crowded (in MMOs things tend to go in the other direction but if Pantheon is done well enough and word spreads there could be a large influx of new players).
Apart from the "obvious" I too like the idea of occasionally having a new server just for the sake of starting over knowing that there are no high levels (my own or anyone else's) that can help a new character. But this only is good for the game if existing servers have a robust population - if they are marginal the loss of palyers could drive them under.
Part of the solution to your idea may not be that hard. If you get into a fairly large friendly guild it may be easy for you to get a full group to restart your experience all over again. If pantheon holds true to certain level experience content than your new group should be able to move along quite well without feeling inferior to others in the game who may have better gear than you. But there is always the ones who get and keep better gear for thier alts and that may take some of the immersion out of the new experience. Also the fact that other higher levels may be camping the very items you are seeking so they can sell them is a very real scenario. They say that instancing will not be available in Pantheon so they will need to come up with a system that deteres higher levels from camping lower level mobs so the actual level players designed for that camp can get in and enjoy it.
Hopefully Pantheon never raises the Level Cap in game and instead just expands it horizontally with expanisons instead of vertically. This would reduce the need or want for new progession servers IMO.
The only other reasons to play a progression server IMO are:
- Bored of content (Hopefully this won't be the case anytime soon)
- Don't like your server, community, or both and want to start fresh. (Could be possible)
- Major event that only happens once in the lifetime of the game happened and your missed it. (Not sure if Pantheon will even have such events, but hopefully)
Again though I'd love to see Pantheon never raise the level cap, and stick to expanding horisontally in the game which in my mind would limit the want for progression servers greatly.
Not really trying to offend you in anyway. I believe I said that in my previous post and I apologize if it seemed that way. I guess I really just don't understand the need to ask this question so soon? Especially since the game isn't even close to being released yet. And you were trying to say all games are the same - that statement is very false. Different things have worked for different games. And those same ideas were tried on other games that made it fail miserably.
Edit: Same was the wrong choice of word. You made it seem like it was "unavoidable" for all games to have people be at or close to end game just a few short months after the game has been launched. Either way, the statement made for the people being 3 months behind - (personally) I dont think people need their own new server for only being 3 months behind.
Saicred said:The only other reasons to play a progression server IMO are:
- Bored of content (Hopefully this won't be the case anytime soon)
- Don't like your server, community, or both and want to start fresh. (Could be possible)
- Major event that only happens once in the lifetime of the game happened and your missed it. (Not sure if Pantheon will even have such events, but hopefully)
Again though I'd love to see Pantheon never raise the level cap, and stick to expanding horisontally in the game which in my mind would limit the want for progression servers greatly.
Saicred said:Hopefully Pantheon never raises the Level Cap in game and instead just expands it horizontally with expanisons instead of vertically. This would reduce the need or want for new progession servers IMO.
The only other reasons to play a progression server IMO are:
- Bored of content (Hopefully this won't be the case anytime soon)
- Don't like your server, community, or both and want to start fresh. (Could be possible)
- Major event that only happens once in the lifetime of the game happened and your missed it. (Not sure if Pantheon will even have such events, but hopefully)
Again though I'd love to see Pantheon never raise the level cap, and stick to expanding horisontally in the game which in my mind would limit the want for progression servers greatly.
I agree that a progression server would be less attractive if PRF never raises the level cap. I kind of doubt that the level cap will stay the same, though . . .
I also think there are other reasons to want a fresh server. (1) you're a new player and would like to start somewhere near the rest of the community, (2) you took a break from the game for RL reasons and don't want to play on a server that is top-heavy when you're still leveling, or (3) you want to level up on a server with an undeveloped economy (i.e., no twinks, money is scarce, no high-level crafters yet, etc.). I've heard the same sentiment from many people -- there's something exhilarating about a totally fresh server. It seems like it would benefit the game to provide that experience in a well considered way, hopefully without harming the existing servers. This seems like a hard nut to crack, so I was hoping for some examples of what could work.
fancy said:
I guess I really just don't understand the need to ask this question so soon? Especially since the game isn't even close to being released yet. And you were trying to say all games are the same - that statement is very false. Different things have worked for different games. And those same ideas were tried on other games that made it fail miserably.
As for why it makes sense to ask this now, you might consider what happened to WoW. They changed the client and server code so many times that (they claim) they are unable to affordably provide a legacy/progression experience. Or take the example of EQ progression servers. The servers do not come anywhere near to replicating the original experience for various reasons, including the need to keep certain functions/zones conformed across all servers, including both progression and live. So neither of those games can provide a true progression experience, due to programming decisions made over the lifetime of the game. I tend to think most/all "fresh" servers should unlock content gradually, so I would like to see PRF have the option to open fresh progression servers earlier in the life of the game.
fancy said:Edit: Same was the wrong choice of word. You made it seem like it was "unavoidable" for all games to have people be at or close to end game just a few short months after the game has been launched. Either way, the statement made for the people being 3 months behind - (personally) I dont think people need their own new server for only being 3 months behind.
You've focused on the 3-month number that I threw out as an example. Maybe it's six months instead. The point is that a "fresh" server experience has a powerful draw on new/returning players. I tend to think it would be healthy to have new servers coming online regularly, as a way to attract new/returning players or to give existing players a fresh start.
Gnog said:I couldn't find a thread on this, but I suspect someone may link one.
Every MMO deals with this, new players coming in and having to catch up. The thing is that new people can generally do this faster then the first people that did it. More gear, better udnerstanding of XP rates, hot zones etc will make them play fewer hours to get max then teh first group that gets max
I would not expect to see any fresh servers until there are enough new subs to require one. They way the devs are talking about the game whenever you join a server I would expect there will be a broad level range of players all enjoying their journey and there should be no reason why you cannot enjoy the game with them.
Kipling said:I would not expect to see any fresh servers until there are enough new subs to require one. They way the devs are talking about the game whenever you join a server I would expect there will be a broad level range of players all enjoying their journey and there should be no reason why you cannot enjoy the game with them.
Agreed with the Progeny System you should see players in all Level ranges all the time.
The idea of a progression server really isn't something to even think about early in a game's life. I feel its something you do when the game is aged to bring back nostalgia.
I am hoping for VR to solve this issue with the Progeny system. Making it VERY attractive to re-roll your main and "start over". Keeping the server from being eternally top heavy and reducing the amount of vertical progression needed over the course of expansions. Expanding content throughout the level range instead of adding more levels and just making new "end game" content.
I want to see horizonal progression as the norm, with vertical moves happening infrequently. If done right I really do think that a system like Progeny, whos purpose is to make players WANT to start over, could be the answer to this type of concern.
I must admit I'm a bit surprised there wouldn't be more acknowledgement of the draw of fresh servers. I wonder if you all would feel the same way if you were not planning to play this game from launch. Are you saying that the only people who should get a fresh-server experience are the ones who play from launch, or happen to be starting a new character when overcrowding leads to the creation of a new server? If that's how you think the game should work, why is that? As one alternative, just as an example, VR could open a fresh server every 3 months or so, and then merge the server into a server that needs more population, or allow character transfer from the new server to an older server. You draw players into the game, or back into the game, with the appeal of a fresh server, and then infuse them into more mature servers once they've had some time to play in the fresh realm. Why not give this option? Do you think you get more people to play PRF by *not* providing this option? Or a better game in some way? I'm just not seeing the rationale to *not* give this option, even if you're right that a fresh server will be less needed due to PRF's emphasis on horizontal progression.
I am totally with you guys on hoping that VR finds a way to create more "horizontal" progression than we've seen in other games. But I also have some doubt as to the limits of horizontal progression. If your character gets more powerful (no matter if it's in levels, or equipment power, or spell power, or versatility), your character is progressing. Whether you call it "vertical" or "horizontal" progression, it is character progression, and it has an impact on the experience of new players coming to the server. The development of a server's economy also has a major impact on the leveling and playing experience. The experience will be much different for new players on a fresh realm than new players on a developed realm where twinks and progeny are running around with rare-drop items that have accumulated over the life of the server, just as one example. You may say this impact is a net positive, but that is going to be a matter of personal preference--the fact remains that the experience will be different than being on a fresh server. And you guys seem to be dismissing outright the appeal of a fresh-server experience for many players, and the potential upsides of providing that experience after Day 1 of the game, and not just as a pressure-release when existing servers become overcrowded. The Progeny system seems like it will be cool, but it's not going to create a fresh-server experience.
As for progression servers, as I said before, if the game is not developed with progression servers in mind, it will become much more difficult to provide that service down the line. See the entire WoW private server scene, which, by some metrics, has attracted more than 1 million players over the last few years. Yet Blizzard refuses to provide a Legacy experience and says the expense of doing so would be too great. Also, I tend to disagree w/ you kellindil that "[t]he idea of a progression server really isn't something to even think about early in a game's life." The question of whether to have new servers "progress" through expansions will present itself when the first fresh server comes online after the first expansion has been released. Do you launch the new server with all expansions enabled, or allow it to progress through the storyline and content in a time-locked sequence?
Sorry for the novel.
From what I read about Blizzard the the legacy servers (vanilla WoW) they don't want to do it because it's not even the game they represent anymore. That's why a large population quit after vanilla and went elsewhere. They could generate more revenue if they did make those servers, but it's old content and completely different from the game they have now. They kept the name WoW but it's not really the same game. Activision took over and created and followed down a different path than the path the game was originally on. It was created to reach and much wider audience and it has.
Simplest terms: Old WoW =/= New WoW. New WoW has already been created and has expansions they can easily add on. Old WoW is different in many ways from new WoW and trying to get two separate teams to manage that is more money and too much of risk. Plus, what happens when people ask for new stuff to be added to the legacy servers? Continuing on the route of old WoW but it would still be new content. How would they even create expansions for both? This is just based off what I read, I'm not a dev so I don't have numbers and percentages.
As for other games I was talking about. Here are some examples.
Rift: As of the past few years, they have gotten RID of servers, or combined them, but never created a fresh start server. They created opportunity for people to just catch up. With either a lvl 50 character you have to lvl 5-10 levels or a quicker quest line that guides you straight into getting gear for dungeons and then raids and such. Leveling to 50 in 2 hours is an actual package deal you can buy from people on websites. 2 hours for 50 levels? What's the point? It's doable though. The rest may take time depending how much time they have to give to the game, but those who have plenty to give are max geared and waiting for new content or are immediately in new content and pretty much done with it in a few short months. It's a dead game.
Archeage: Created 2 Fresh start servers for US and 1 for EU. Popular servers for just 3 months. I saw a huge decline shortly after. And that was on the most populated server of all of the US ones. The 2nd Fresh start was so dead one guild ruled all and the guild on my server that ruled all wanted to go over there and do "fresh start" again (AFTER ONLY 3 MONTHS) to just completely take over both servers. I quit before I could see that happen. All other servers are practically dead and no one will join them because there are fresh start servers that offer new and returning players a "fresh start" chance. Also, those servers are more populated. So then the dying servers continue to lose more and more players because people NEED population in servers. They need a community to play with or fight against. Whether it's an awful community or not. You just learn to ignore certain people. The only reason people don't quit sooner is because they've put so much money into the game.
WoW: I'm pretty sure WoW has created your sort of "fresh servers" but only because of population once new expansions come out. However I've also seen them combine servers as well. WoW is an odd one because its the most successful. They can pretty much do with the IDEA of fresh start servers. But its not fresh start. They offer people bundles with new expansions and give you a lvl 100 character and you just do the rest of the 10 levels and you're "caught up". That's not a fresh start though. That's just playing catch up. And that's a huge difference Pantheon will have to focus on when that time comes.
These are the 3 most recent MMO's I played in long enough to give great detail about. I haven't really touched an MMO since my 2nd time playing Archeage on their stupid fresh start servers. All in all, I think it's a decision for VR to make. Do they want to give people that "fresh start" by creating that sort of server and making everyone at the same level day one? Or do they want to allow people to catch up on older servers? Do they need MORE servers because of population? By the way, the same thing you mention about original servers can happen with fresh start. People will come and go and the idea of fresh start... Once it's created it pretty much has to be recreated. Otherwise what was the point of it in the first place? The people who are there for fresh start on day 1 will get to be part of that. People who come later get to choose between the fresh start server or older servers. But they decide to be either 1 year behind or 6 months behind (depending when this "fresh server" is released) and in the end they are still behind. So do we create more fresh start servers? What happens if this fresh start servers see's a huge decline in population? Do you combine it with an original server? Would that even be fair? Or do you hope that it gets populated again so it doesn't completely die out?
I mean, it's a great topic to talk about. But if anything, I only see VR adding more servers only because of population increase and combining some incase of a huge decrease. But again, that's not my decision, it's just an educated guess based on what I know of Pantheon, how hard it's suppose to be when released, and what Brad has talked about in his blogs.
Big fan of limiting the number of servers and funneling the players so that all servers are high or medium-high population. While you have always gravitated toward new servers, I have always gone toward higher populated servers for a more lively world and more grouping options, which I think will be much more important in a game without anything being cross-server. Pantheon looks to really be aimed at addressing the issue of aged servers being top heavy with the inclusion of mentoring but more importantly with progeny and not focusing on everything being an end game experience. Even in classic EQ after a few expansions I still never had much issue finding groups to level alts, so I think as long as they keep servers populated then it won't be an issue. That includes having new players starting on aged servers. If release were a tidal wave, I would prefer that when it settles we have a few large lakes of players instead of many small ponds.
If it is just about feeling behind, well, there will always be others pushing content and further along. I can't imagine playing an MMO with worry about what others were doing or have accomplished.