How do you feel about having nooks and crannies that only small race characters could fit through ?
Large races could have their own advantages but what if one of the benefits of being small was that you could squeeze into some caves or other areas that would be unreachable to others ?
I think it would be fun to put a group of Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes together for a bit of spelunking.
I guess the question I'm wondering is if its ok to have areas of the game that not every race can enter just based on size alone ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
I would think that this idea would be offset by having items only large people could wear and items that were restricted to certain races. But the idea of small races having access only by virtue of size is not new. EQ had some places where only small people could fit. That was offset due to shrinking potions etc which to me made it kind of a useless design.
Definitely. I like ways of making your Race choice matter. The only problem I could foresee is your Height slider potentially being more than just cosmetic. All of the other customization options on character creation only affect your appearance, not gameplay. But if you're creating a Gnome, Dwarf, or Halfling, it might be expected of you to set your Height slider to minimum so you don't need to worry about bumping your head in a passageway that all Gnomes are expected to be able to fit through, for example.
Still, some good ideas in this thread too: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2344/make-size-count-for-something
And this one includes some thoughts from Montreseur: https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1709/city-scale
Conversely, there could of course also be some areas that only larger races could easily reach. Perhaps there would be an "Enlarge" or "Giant Growth" ability to help smaller races reach these areas: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2741/bigger-isn-t-always-better/view/post_id/117593
Agree with Bazgrim.
It's also a difficult thing to balance in such a way that short characters aren't automatically favorable over short ones.
Having exclusive areas for both races technically balances it, but if it can be bypassed by shrink/growth mechanics it seems like wasted effort.
The idea of having a zone only the small or only the big can enter has two sides.
On one hand, it is nice to have such special zones, but on the other hand either you give one side an advantage over the others or you have to invest the development work for two zones with more or less similar content, one for the big and one for the small. In this case it would be better to invest that development work in two completely different zones, that everyone could enter.
But I like zones, that are not so easy to enter, where you need to earn the entrance in one way or another. With this in mind, maybe having one zone for the smaller, where the bigger have to invest some work to get there and one zone where it is vice versa would be a good compromise.
Only place small races could fit seems it would be more natural to offset this with Jumps (distance and height) that only large races could make. I never could understand Gnomes being able to jump the same distance as Elves.
It also could be used as further incentive for Progeny. (Assuming Progeny offers a race change)
A quest in the trees making jumps only a large race could make to obtain the magic feather of gliding. Vs. Another underground that only a small race could crawl to obtain the wormskin cape that gives night vision.
Just thoughts
Bazgrim said:Definitely. I like ways of making your Race choice matter. The only problem I could foresee is your Height slider potentially being more than just cosmetic. All of the other customization options on character creation only affect your appearance, not gameplay. But if you're creating a Gnome, Dwarf, or Halfling, it might be expected of you to set your Height slider to minimum so you don't need to worry about bumping your head in a passageway that all Gnomes are expected to be able to fit through, for example.
Still, some good ideas in this thread too: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2344/make-size-count-for-something
And this one includes some thoughts from Montreseur: https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1709/city-scale
Conversely, there could of course also be some areas that only larger races could easily reach. Perhaps there would be an "Enlarge" or "Giant Growth" ability to help smaller races reach these areas: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2741/bigger-isn-t-always-better/view/post_id/117593
Thanks a good read, wish i could "Like" your post for being so informative for us. I dont spend enough time on the forums, without you and many others i would have to search for hours finding what was talked about 3 months ago.
Bazgrim said:Definitely. I like ways of making your Race choice matter. The only problem I could foresee is your Height slider potentially being more than just cosmetic. All of the other customization options on character creation only affect your appearance, not gameplay. But if you're creating a Gnome, Dwarf, or Halfling, it might be expected of you to set your Height slider to minimum so you don't need to worry about bumping your head in a passageway that all Gnomes are expected to be able to fit through, for example.
Still, some good ideas in this thread too: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2344/make-size-count-for-something
And this one includes some thoughts from Montreseur: https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1709/city-scale
Conversely, there could of course also be some areas that only larger races could easily reach. Perhaps there would be an "Enlarge" or "Giant Growth" ability to help smaller races reach these areas: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2741/bigger-isn-t-always-better/view/post_id/117593
A short story from my EQ days: A group of us headed into Dalnir with an Ogre as one of our tanks. Me of course, being the blacksheep WoodElf warrrior (how many people mistook me for a ranger, I don't know, and it was a constant source of embarrassment). Racial choices aside, we found ourselves in a room with a small opening that led into another crypt, which of course we wanted to investigate. Well as you can see from the folowing pictures, it didn't quite work out the way we had planned! Our gnomes and halfling hopped right through, but our lovely Ogre on the other hand...
Perhaps we should get out and push??
I just can't tell you how that one simple thing of this massive Ogre not being able to fit through that tiny crack. It was so... endearing and immersive. Having the game enforce the decisions that the player makes, even early on in creation... that have reverberating impact throughout the game world.. now that is what I am in to.
Please make Pantheon a game where even small (or large) choices like these matter!
It's fun as a one off, unique experience that stands out in your memory.
When it's a known factor in character creation, 95% of the playerbase will roll smaller races because nobody wants to be disadvantaged at something as trivial as walking through a doorway. It'll have a reverberating impact throughout the game in that you will never see someone play a race larger than an Elf.
There's no way to balance it. That's the problem. Racial characteristics in general are a huge flop to me because people who actually care about maximizing their effectiveness are pidgeonholed into a very limited selection. In my opinion, axe racial traits completely and design the game world in such a way that getting past character creation isn't a nightmare.
What are Ogres going to get? Combat advantages instead of the ability to fit through a doorway? That's madness. Even if you design the world in a way that large races can only access some things (how?), you will end up creating a dichotomy where a specific demographic is effectively forced into making a specific choice.
Unique racial characteristics sounds like diversity. In reality, it limits your choices.
Liav said:It's fun as a one off, unique experience that stands out in your memory.
When it's a known factor in character creation, 95% of the playerbase will roll smaller races because nobody wants to be disadvantaged at something as trivial as walking through a doorway. It'll have a reverberating impact throughout the game in that you will never see someone play a race larger than an Elf.
There's no way to balance it. That's the problem. Racial characteristics in general are a huge flop to me because people who actually care about maximizing their effectiveness are pidgeonholed into a very limited selection. In my opinion, axe racial traits completely and design the game world in such a way that getting past character creation isn't a nightmare.
What are Ogres going to get? Combat advantages instead of the ability to fit through a doorway? That's madness. Even if you design the world in a way that large races can only access some things (how?), you will end up creating a dichotomy where a specific demographic is effectively forced into making a specific choice.
Unique racial characteristics sounds like diversity. In reality, it limits your choices.
Balance is boring, I'll take flavor over equality every time in MMOs.
Racial traits are important to make each race feel unique and I want real choices and consequences even at character select.
Not only do I want a different experience for every class I choose, I also want a different experience for every race I choose. This makes many more choice combinations and allows for greater character diversity.
Speaking of this, Race and Class combinations could be a little less stringent imo it would be fun to see the occasional Ogre Bard or Dwarf Ranger even if it's not an optimal combo.
Thanks again,
Kiz~
Liav said:It's fun as a one off, unique experience that stands out in your memory.
When it's a known factor in character creation, 95% of the playerbase will roll smaller races because nobody wants to be disadvantaged at something as trivial as walking through a doorway. It'll have a reverberating impact throughout the game in that you will never see someone play a race larger than an Elf.
There's no way to balance it. That's the problem. Racial characteristics in general are a huge flop to me because people who actually care about maximizing their effectiveness are pidgeonholed into a very limited selection. In my opinion, axe racial traits completely and design the game world in such a way that getting past character creation isn't a nightmare.
What are Ogres going to get? Combat advantages instead of the ability to fit through a doorway? That's madness. Even if you design the world in a way that large races can only access some things (how?), you will end up creating a dichotomy where a specific demographic is effectively forced into making a specific choice.
Unique racial characteristics sounds like diversity. In reality, it limits your choices.
For this kind of game, it really fits, though. It fleshes out the game with soul, and gives impact to character selection. Impact that can affect the player's choices later in the game in many more ways than you might think. Someone suggested climbing bonuses. Larger races could get stamina bonuses as well, or frontal stun immunity. Things that might not make or break a class to the point of meta-builds that everyone uses to min/max. It's possible, though intelligent design, to make every race viable... just different. An elf might dodge hits more often, while an ogre might take the hits better, with higher HP.
Either way, they are both viable. One might even be more preferred in a certain fight than others. There are TONS of ways to engineer this properly, so that they game ends up with a breadth of choices that still can impact the player in ways that add small unique bits of heart and soul to the game through this diversity. The kind of heart and soul that has been missing from just about every major F2P MMO of the last decade. This is part of the special sauce that we've been missing all these years, imo.
We're arguing two different things Kelendil. I'm not arguing about viability. In reality all races will be viable, but there are a subset of players who get screwed by this system and I happen to be one of them.
You see a "ton of ways" to balance, I see an emergent clear cut meta where players who want to maximize their performance based on their character role will get the shaft and be forced to roll a Halfling if thet want to play a Rogue because Halflings happen to have the highest potential DPS output due to how their racial characteristics favor Rogues. (example)
If racial characteristics are JUST limited to size, it's not as big of a deal, unless the developers decide to include exclusive content for specific character sizes in which case the cycle repeats.
Also, EQ has the greatest lack of racial diversity in that all stats were hard capped so endgame players weren't heavily disadvantaged regardless of the race they chose. Iksar AC and regen benefit should never have existed, I simply played an Iksar Monk because it happened to be my favorite race/class combination. I still think it was a mistake for Iksars to be objectively better Monks than Humans. Once AAs came out, Iksar AC made them the best choice as tanks as well because Ogre frontal stun immunity was given away in the form of AAs.
Unless you're going to argue that EQ has no soul, I don't really think that point is valid. I can think of a dozen MMOs that put a heavier emphasis on race choice that have a lot less "soul" than EQ.
I really do hope they have small areas that large races can only get to with help (shrink etc). That said, I'd hope there are areas that are more inconvienant for small races to get to. Large steps and the like that might require them to either get a levitate or spend much more time to get up by having to physically scale each step along the way. Mostly for cities and perhaps few select dungeons. It's always irked me a bit when games have small races like gnomes and dwarves but their entire cities are built with huge doors and buildings + hallways with extremely high ceilings.
If small openings are added to dungeons then I'd also recommend there be a better alternate path for large races so shrink isn't entirely necessary. Either way I really want some really cramped dungeons/tunnels/rooms.
The natural place for this racial size difference to exist is in the racial cities. Ogres shouldn't be able to move around in the Halfling or Gnome cities without magical assistance. By the same token those same Halfings and Gnomes would need some help in the Archai and Ogre cities just to reach the doorknobs. Out in the world there doesn't need to be a deliberate or conscious effort made to have the sizes affect the players. The developers don't need to specifically make some area Gnome scaled and other places Ogre scaled, they are scaled naturally by who resides there. If it's big creatures the zone should reflect that and Gnomes/Halflings would see their movements slowed down because that staircase the Ogre can just walk up requires the Gnome to jump at every step yet later on that doorway is just a bit too low forcing the Ogre to crouch and shuffle through. Having a fallen tree crossing a path could just force the Halfing to walk around it while the Archai jumps over it.
Anything else will just seem contrived and artificial.
I like having racial choice matter. And, I'd like options to try to get around the racial choice. Shink or growth spells are fine, but, I'd like to see some old school D&D back as well if we're going to have a perception skill. The ogre could /slam the doorway wall to make the opening larger. Or, maybe with /perception a large race could find a weak point in the wall (or a group member could for the ogre).
Kelendil said:Bazgrim said:Definitely. I like ways of making your Race choice matter. The only problem I could foresee is your Height slider potentially being more than just cosmetic. All of the other customization options on character creation only affect your appearance, not gameplay. But if you're creating a Gnome, Dwarf, or Halfling, it might be expected of you to set your Height slider to minimum so you don't need to worry about bumping your head in a passageway that all Gnomes are expected to be able to fit through, for example.
Still, some good ideas in this thread too: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2344/make-size-count-for-something
And this one includes some thoughts from Montreseur: https://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1709/city-scale
Conversely, there could of course also be some areas that only larger races could easily reach. Perhaps there would be an "Enlarge" or "Giant Growth" ability to help smaller races reach these areas: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2741/bigger-isn-t-always-better/view/post_id/117593
A short story from my EQ days: A group of us headed into Dalnir with an Ogre as one of our tanks. Me of course, being the blacksheep WoodElf warrrior (how many people mistook me for a ranger, I don't know, and it was a constant source of embarrassment). Racial choices aside, we found ourselves in a room with a small opening that led into another crypt, which of course we wanted to investigate. Well as you can see from the folowing pictures, it didn't quite work out the way we had planned! Our gnomes and halfling hopped right through, but our lovely Ogre on the other hand...
Perhaps we should get out and push??
I just can't tell you how that one simple thing of this massive Ogre not being able to fit through that tiny crack. It was so... endearing and immersive. Having the game enforce the decisions that the player makes, even early on in creation... that have reverberating impact throughout the game world.. now that is what I am in to.
Please make Pantheon a game where even small (or large) choices like these matter!
That's a great story, Kelendil! The more I think about it, these sorts of areas should be relatively infrequent so that they remain more memorable and so that certain race heights don't become considered a universal necessity. Furthermore, these areas should basically just be little bonuses for wandering off the beaten path, rather than something that is required for a major quest or item. But you gave a perfect example of how it can be fun, if done right.
Kelendil said:
A short story from my EQ days: A group of us headed into Dalnir with an Ogre as one of our tanks. Me of course, being the blacksheep WoodElf warrrior (how many people mistook me for a ranger, I don't know, and it was a constant source of embarrassment). Racial choices aside, we found ourselves in a room with a small opening that led into another crypt, which of course we wanted to investigate. Well as you can see from the folowing pictures, it didn't quite work out the way we had planned! Our gnomes and halfling hopped right through, but our lovely Ogre on the other hand...
>image<
Perhaps we should get out and push??
>image<
I just can't tell you how that one simple thing of this massive Ogre not being able to fit through that tiny crack. It was so... endearing and immersive. Having the game enforce the decisions that the player makes, even early on in creation... that have reverberating impact throughout the game world.. now that is what I am in to.
Please make Pantheon a game where even small (or large) choices like these matter!
While that happening at the bank is nothing but a minor inconvenience to some and a hilarious experience to others. The amount of tears shed when that same thing happened at the entrance to SolA, SolB, UpperGuk, LowerGuk could fill the Pacific ocean. Full disclosure here: I was both the victim countless times to such things and the cause of such things countless times so overall it never bothered me. Those people sitting at the zone line ended up dying just as often, if not more, than people trying to escape. :)
EDIT: One thing VR could implement that would alleviate a lot of problems are buffs like grow/shrink/illusion to remain active across zone line. That way people can get buffs outside the zones and zone in properly sized.