Hey guys,
So, I realize that the majority of us here are seasoned players with many upon many of hours (aka years) worth of MMOing under our belt. However, over the past month as I express my interest in Pantheon to family and friends I find myself hesitant to invite them to play as I am worried the learning curve may be something similar to EVE online.
While I myself really enjoy a difficult and mysterious MMORPG, my 8 year old daughter, who has never played a "real" game, yet is begging my wife to buy her Pantheon so she can play with me, certainly will not get as fun of an experience out of it.
Secondly my older sister, who loves MMORPGs, but is a rather sluggish and laid back / take her time player enjoys playing games with nothing but a mouse because she likes to think the other hand is obviously to keep the beer from spilling when the cat jumps on the table.
To my question!
I am curious if either there will be or at least if there is interest in some form of mild auto-follow / auto-assistance that could be set up for beginner players that may limit functionality but allow for a much simpler battle system and gameplay?
I realize there will be loads of negative feedback from those who see this solely as "could be used to box". But I am hoping this discussion can be about how we could create it so it really wouldn't be affective as a boxed toon.
I look forward to ideas or already implemented plans :D
There are plenty of games that utilize auto-follow and assist commands. I don't really have an issue with either, but as content grows in difficulty, these commands will become less reliable. I expect combat mechanics that require different group members to be targeting different NPC's at different times ... same with positioning. This stuff might work for the first 10-15 levels or so but beyond that, I imagine plenty of situations where players will have to act on their own intuition and where reaction speed and accuracy can be a deciding factor between life and death. Pantheon is being designed as a hardcore MMO ... I don't expect any tools that will allow players to circumvent the inherent "challenge" factor that so many of us miss.
I want to play with my 7 year old daughter as well ... but it will likely take place in lower level areas and in more of a controlled environment that limits potential surprises. Beyond that, I'll probably teach her how to craft and harvest. Most games have a "recommended age" and I wouldn't be surprised to see Pantheon be close to 13+ if they use one. That doesen't mean younger kids won't be able to enjoy it ... but if someone wants to appreciate the real experience of the game, as it was designed ... difficulty is a big part of that. There will always be a child prodigy here or there that will be able to keep up with the adults but for the most part I don't think Terminus will be a "kid friendly" world. I'm perfectly fine with that ... I'll still do my best to get my daughter interested in the game and encourage her to play and take the game as far as she is willing to go.
I understand Kargen. I wouldn't be surprised to see both auto-follow and assist commands but again, they will grow less and less reliable as you level up. The higher your level, the more NPC Dispositions you're likely to encounter. Acclimation, resistances, and stats will all become more relevant. Positioning and combat mechanics will grow more complex. I'll probably teach my daughter how to play while utilizing these features but also ensure that she knows they won't always be applicable. Better to have them on a curve than eventually end up running into a stone wall. Use them while they work but definitely don't get into a habit of relying on them is another way to put it.
Pantheon will be a game that anyone can pick up and play, so it will be very family friendly, the only thing that will separate the casual players from the hardcore is the mentality/commitment to progressing their characters and the pace they do that at, plus the top end raid content, so I really wouldn't worry, we will most likely have a small tutorial to help explain the basic and plus there will be Volunteer Guides, helpful community members and a range of online help from streamers and Youtube content creators to cover what you need not to mention our own Wiki and official game forums. :)
Kilsin already commented on this, so this isn't much point, but i'll share my experience from the past.
Given who is developing this game, and the playerbase they are trying to cater to, we can expect a lot of similarities to EverQuest.
1) Auto-follow / Assist: Would be blown away if these aren't in the game. Auto-assist usually just consists of a macro that will grab the target of your target and turn on auto-attack. Hopefully she wants to play a melee class! :)
2) I started playing EQ when I was 11. The game wasn't the MOST accessible thing. Sure, I understood how to kill fire beetles, loot and make money, but finding my spell vendor (as a human necro navigating the hidden walls in freeport) and other simpler game mechanics definitely escaped me. Now, I had no help at all, no parent playing and I hadn't really spoken to that many people in-game besides 1 or 2 people who ended up being around my age.
This wasn't a deterrant, it was compelling.
As I continued to play, around the age of 15-16, I had many guild members who had their children playing. I remember grouping with an 8 year old at one point, and it was so cool, as someone a few years older than them, to see someone doing something I struggled with.
Should Terminus turn out to be anywhere near as incredible as Norrath was, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Kids find a way to accelerate their learning curve to do what they enjoy. If your daughter wants to play Pantheon with Daddy, you bet she is going to figure it out.
3) In that same vein, for your sister, I'd have her shy away from any twitch classes like Cleric or Enchanter. I think there will be plenty of content for her to enjoy at the pace she likes to play games. Mayyyybe it wouldn't be the worst idea if you argued a more engaging experience by getting her to place that second hand on the keyboard, haha.
I hope your whole family is able to enjoy the game!
Just want to second the vote of confidence here.
My kids had a lot of fun with EQ even though they didn't really understand it. Most the time they just wanted to play the game I was playing. To be fair, they never did any of the harder/more serious stuff, but we had our own "family" guild and did some dungeon camps and such that definitely leaned toward difficult.
I'm sure that will be a big part of it for your daughter, and through your loving patience as a father it'll be great!
oneADseven said:I want to play with my 7 year old daughter as well ... but it will likely take place in lower level areas and in more of a controlled environment that limits potential surprises. Beyond that, I'll probably teach her how to craft and harvest.
Child labour, I like your thinking man :D
'If you want to eat tonight you're going to craft items for the next eight hours and like it!'
Stratoz said:Is it possible for VR to make a childfrendly zone/instance/shard where AI is set lower and not everything is aggro and slower progress a normal zone jus not as deadly ? As most MMO as difficulty on groupe mission you can set, could there be a childfriendly setting choice ?
Pantheon won't have any instancing if we can avoid it, plus it will have a minimum age requirement to play for legal reasons, so children that are young enough to need that type of zone should be sitting on their parents lap being taught properly and embracing the challenge/difficulty, not bubble wrapped in easy zones, my friend ;)
Kargen said:Hey guys,
So, I realize that the majority of us here are seasoned players with many upon many of hours (aka years) worth of MMOing under our belt. However, over the past month as I express my interest in Pantheon to family and friends I find myself hesitant to invite them to play as I am worried the learning curve may be something similar to EVE online.
While I myself really enjoy a difficult and mysterious MMORPG, my 8 year old daughter, who has never played a "real" game, yet is begging my wife to buy her Pantheon so she can play with me, certainly will not get as fun of an experience out of it.
Secondly my older sister, who loves MMORPGs, but is a rather sluggish and laid back / take her time player enjoys playing games with nothing but a mouse because she likes to think the other hand is obviously to keep the beer from spilling when the cat jumps on the table.
To my question!
I am curious if either there will be or at least if there is interest in some form of mild auto-follow / auto-assistance that could be set up for beginner players that may limit functionality but allow for a much simpler battle system and gameplay?
I realize there will be loads of negative feedback from those who see this solely as "could be used to box". But I am hoping this discussion can be about how we could create it so it really wouldn't be affective as a boxed toon.
I look forward to ideas or already implemented plans :D
I fully understand where you are coming from. Although your 8 year old may be a little young to play solo I see no reason why she should be kept out of the game because she is so young. But she should be monitored in game so she does not get into trouble with other players who think that they are the only ones that know what they are doing. Some people can get very unruly and downright cruel when they are upset because someone made a mistake and thier character got dead.
As far as slower zones for beginers. well I think that is not really in the interest of the game and, as Kilsin posted, not going to be available. As far as your 8 year old goes I wish her the best and hope she gets a lot of fun and has a great learning experience from Pantheon.
Your older sister on the other hand may be just the one who can teach her the best way to enjoy the game. Being a little slower to level and move along ingame i really enjoy the luxury of taking my time and enjoying the scenery and experience that going a little slower can provide. And it can really provide your daughter with a lifetime of fun and learning that mmorpg's can provide.
Best of luck to you and yours.
Thank you all for the wonderful positive reinforcement and confedence that this game will be for everyone and not just the elite! Can't wait to start helping the devs find all those glitches and bugs (Alpha sub). hopefully we can push this game out before my 8 year old daughter graduates college! :D
That's so awesome! I just recently mentioned in a post about my gaming family. Mom, dad, little brother, me (daughter), and the SO.
I got into EQ2 with my parents when I was like 10 years old or so. I may not have been as advanced in gaming and I couldn't just level up and jump into raids and theory craft like I had been playing video games all my life (because I hadn't been). But, I can confidently say, EQ2 was my starting point and I did well enough to make it into raids with the family later on. I think the best part about this game is the people creating it WANT you to take your time going through it. The game isn't suppose to be a rush, it's suppose to be about groups and not just blowing through all the content.
With all that being said, I think we can safely assume that your 8 year old is probably going to enjoy Pantheon more than she would a few other games. Like if you were to ask about Wildstar for someone who wants to pace themselves slowly, I would recommend not playing that game. Mostly because of the combat and such. The game itself was a blast for me, but for anyone getting used to video games, you don't start with those action like games because that's hard for even people who have been playing video games to get into as well.
Personally, I think she is better off starting in Pantheon. The community is already so wonderful and helpful, and the game itself will be a very fun adventure for her and help her learn the ways of MMORPGs. Coming from someone who started off about the same age as her in EQ2, which was also a project the lead dev of Pantheon was part of, it will be the best starting point. The next part would be to find a guild that understands that she's 8 and is willing to help her out. My Dad's guild in EQ2 was so helpful and sweet towards me when I was playing. Anytime I needed help questing, I got offers and met loads of wonderful people. And they followed us to new games as well, so I was always familiar with the gaming family my dad had built gaming all those years.
My dad is starting up a guild again for this game, so if you find yourself in Pantheon looking for a friendly environment, you could look us up. We are Subterfuge in the guild recruitment forums. The post is there for recruitment, but we were also hoping some gaming friends of ours would see Pantheon, somehow come across our post, and join us again. With all this being said, I have no doubt she will enjoy this game and wish you great adventures in the world of Terminus :)
I want to play a game that is incredibly complex and deep with punishing content that will send anyone but the most seasoned veterans packing.
A game designed for adults with situations that may be uncomfortable for children. A harsh world that has no remorse when you die and lose experience.
I don't want a friendly feel good game for all ages. Like WoW...
How can you make a world feel dangerous and mysterious while slopping a kid friendly sugar coating all over it ?
I want to spend years figuring out all the depth and complexity of the systems and not have wrapped my head around it all in 2 weeks of playing or less like most games these days.
If I'm not making spreadsheets it's not complex enough...
Ah well, hopefully in my lifetime I will see such a game but with the rate of idiocracy growing sometimes I wonder if eventually we will all just be facerolling buttons while we "baitin" and playing a game that's just a hand scratching an ass.
Sorry for the rant,
Kiz~
Woah there Angry person..
I think you've got us mixed up. We didn't see we wanted to play ToonTown or Wizard 101. We said the game can be very friendly for kids at a young age. Hence the example I gave with myself and my own father. I was relating to his situation and told them that EQ2 which is NOT any of the games you described, was not hard for me to get into. I wasn't slaying bosses like some crazy assassin when I first got in, I had to learn. But it wasn't hard to learn. In most games today, you smash buttons without even caring which ones you're smashing -- because you pop pots to help with your health and mana and just keep popping those while running around smashing buttons. While that is easy, raiding and dungeons aren't always as easy right away. Especially for someone just getting into MMO's. The running around and dodging stuff and enrage timers is harsh on the gaming community. Mostly because they knit pick the people they invite to their raids and guilds and don't ever give someone a learning chance without previous raid experience or having some really high gear score. In my opinion, that's where the idiocracy comes from for games and gaming communities.
The game hasn't even come out yet, and you've already lost hope based off of a forum. That's where more of this "idiocracy" comes from. Not saying you're an idiot, but in today's age, people just want to jump to conclusions and have 0 patience for anything. It's all talk bud, wait until you've played some Alpha before you decide if you lose hope.
The game should be easy enough to grasp so people can just cast buttons and read what their abilities do and LEARN the game. People don't take their time anymore with the smashing the buttons. That doesn't mean this game won't still be difficult just because a kid can learn how to play this game properly. That's the idea of it, LEARNING how to play. They are an apprentice, not a professional. You'd be doing the same thing once we got in game, but it shouldn't be so difficult that those who are newer to games can't learn how to play. You're more advanced than the 8 year old when it comes to MMO's. So getting into Pantheon will be easier for you, but still difficult as you learn the crafting, and exploring, raiding and dungeons, group content, etc. She'll be learning too, but she will be further behind. She will be learning basic mechanics and skills. Running around and tumbles. "Dad why can't my character move?!", "Oh, you're stunned sweety, see this debuff on your screen, it has 2 more seconds on the stun which just prevents you from taking any action".
Sorry for my rant, I just couldn't help but feel a little insulted by your post. You seemed a little pugnacious towards the thought of kids being able to play. What are some of the words people use today for that sort of attitude? Discrimination and prejudice, right? It's a little sad, considering I bet you started young yourself. If everyone had the same mindset you had with this post, you probably wouldn't have experienced some of the greatest memories you have from gaming. I say that with strong confidence because I would be in the same boat and so would probably 90% of any MMORPG community.
-endrant-
TLDR; Games have ratings; like movies do. Parents let their kids play no matter the rating, or they don't. That's up to the parents and what they believe is okay for their kids to see/play. Kids will play regardless, but is it friendly and kind enough for kids who are new to MMORPG's to start playing? IT MOST CERTAINLY IS. If Brad is making this game anything like his previous games, anyone (ALL AGES INCLUDED) can learn how to play it without worrying about finding groups to help them. I don't know what Angrykiz means by dangerous and scary, some Friday the 13th stuff? but, kids play GTA now a days.. violence is not even a thing anymore.
Pantheon is not going to be a difficult game to pick up and play by anyone, if you think it will be you're deluded. Everything about it is intuitive and done many times before. Whatever is there will not overwhelm your new and average player. If BDO managed to keep players playing, Pantheon will have no trouble at all. BDO is so confusing it's almost overwhelming and it's considered a mainstream game (it's overwhelming because of all the new concepts like how your worker dynasty works, nodes, and very odd and unique itemization system...etc). Pantheon in the other hand is not having any of that, it's an RPG (you got your ragdoll interface, put your sword on the hand slot.. move with WASD cast spells... why would this be different than any of the thousands of games out there?).
It's true Pantheon is going to be harsher and more difficult (in terms of working together as a team) than your average game but it's not going to be difficult to pick up and play. I'd say it's more like easy to play and hard to master kind of game. I really doubt we need any kind of special treatment for newbies besides your typical tutorial.
fancy said:Woah there Angry person..
I think you've got us mixed up. We didn't see we wanted to play ToonTown or Wizard 101. We said the game can be very friendly for kids at a young age. Hence the example I gave with myself and my own father. I was relating to his situation and told them that EQ2 which is NOT any of the games you described, was not hard for me to get into. I wasn't slaying bosses like some crazy assassin when I first got in, I had to learn. But it wasn't hard to learn. In most games today, you smash buttons without even caring which ones you're smashing -- because you pop pots to help with your health and mana and just keep popping those while running around smashing buttons. While that is easy, raiding and dungeons aren't always as easy right away. Especially for someone just getting into MMO's. The running around and dodging stuff and enrage timers is harsh on the gaming community. Mostly because they knit pick the people they invite to their raids and guilds and don't ever give someone a learning chance without previous raid experience or having some really high gear score. In my opinion, that's where the idiocracy comes from for games and gaming communities.
The game hasn't even come out yet, and you've already lost hope based off of a forum. That's where more of this "idiocracy" comes from. Not saying you're an idiot, but in today's age, people just want to jump to conclusions and have 0 patience for anything. It's all talk bud, wait until you've played some Alpha before you decide if you lose hope.
The game should be easy enough to grasp so people can just cast buttons and read what their abilities do and LEARN the game. People don't take their time anymore with the smashing the buttons. That doesn't mean this game won't still be difficult just because a kid can learn how to play this game properly. That's the idea of it, LEARNING how to play. They are an apprentice, not a professional. You'd be doing the same thing once we got in game, but it shouldn't be so difficult that those who are newer to games can't learn how to play. You're more advanced than the 8 year old when it comes to MMO's. So getting into Pantheon will be easier for you, but still difficult as you learn the crafting, and exploring, raiding and dungeons, group content, etc. She'll be learning too, but she will be further behind. She will be learning basic mechanics and skills. Running around and tumbles. "Dad why can't my character move?!", "Oh, you're stunned sweety, see this debuff on your screen, it has 2 more seconds on the stun which just prevents you from taking any action".
Sorry for my rant, I just couldn't help but feel a little insulted by your post. You seemed a little pugnacious towards the thought of kids being able to play. What are some of the words people use today for that sort of attitude? Discrimination and prejudice, right? It's a little sad, considering I bet you started young yourself. If everyone had the same mindset you had with this post, you probably wouldn't have experienced some of the greatest memories you have from gaming. I say that with strong confidence because I would be in the same boat and so would probably 90% of any MMORPG community.
-endrant-
TLDR; Games have ratings; like movies do. Parents let their kids play no matter the rating, or they don't. That's up to the parents and what they believe is okay for their kids to see/play. Kids will play regardless, but is it friendly and kind enough for kids who are new to MMORPG's to start playing? IT MOST CERTAINLY IS. If Brad is making this game anything like his previous games, anyone (ALL AGES INCLUDED) can learn how to play it without worrying about finding groups to help them. I don't know what Angrykiz means by dangerous and scary, some Friday the 13th stuff? but, kids play GTA now a days.. violence is not even a thing anymore.
I haven't lost hope at all... Keep in mind you don't know me.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:I want to play a game that is incredibly complex and deep with punishing content that will send anyone but the most seasoned veterans packing.
A game designed for adults with situations that may be uncomfortable for children. A harsh world that has no remorse when you die and lose experience.
I don't want a friendly feel good game for all ages. Like WoW...
How can you make a world feel dangerous and mysterious while slopping a kid friendly sugar coating all over it ?
I want to spend years figuring out all the depth and complexity of the systems and not have wrapped my head around it all in 2 weeks of playing or less like most games these days.
If I'm not making spreadsheets it's not complex enough...
Ah well, hopefully in my lifetime I will see such a game but with the rate of idiocracy growing sometimes I wonder if eventually we will all just be facerolling buttons while we "baitin" and playing a game that's just a hand scratching an ass.
Sorry for the rant,
Kiz~
I feel your pain Kiz ... but don't get too caught up in the comments that anybody and everybody can pick up the game. It's going to be difficult for a lot of people, especially children. I'm sure there will be some who exude supernatural patience and an advanced learning curve, but they will be the exception, not the rule. I have all the confidence in the world that Pantheon will be very challenging, even for adults. I have no idea whether or not my daughter will actually enjoy this game. She loves Zelda but a game like that doesen't have a fraction of the mechanics found in an MMO. I'll let her mess around for fun and really hope that she enjoys being challenged ... but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
In the meantime, I share your desire to see a truly challenging game. The removal of mods and accessible API will limit outside assistance and that should go a long way. We need to get back to the oldschool feel of gaming ... let people figure out timers on their own. If a mob has a 50 meter AoE radius, I want players to have to eyeball it. No glowing red circles on the ground to let you know whether you're going to get hit or not. Combat mechanics should require great timing, coordination, and precision. When a mob starts casting a heavy hitter spell, players will hopefully have a small window available to them where they can interupt it or get temporary buffs up that can mitigate the damage. Likewise, there should be certain spells that can't be interupted where we will have to rely on our healers reflexes to quickly cure various status impairments.
That's just the kind of game I want to play ... no hand-holding. Throw the kitchen sink at us and let players figure out how to deal with it. There will eventually be sites that provide guides and strategies on how to complete certain content, and I'm good with that. I just want it to be organic ... no down-loading patch notes or messing around with an API that allows players to "diagnose" every aspect of the game. There needs to be a sense of mystery. Player intuition, decision making, reflexes, group composition, awareness, positioning, progression in all it's forms ... all of this should be demanding. That's what a hardcore MMO is all about. If you look at the tenets for this game ... your mind should be put at ease. Veteran players will obviously have an easier time acclimating, but there will definitely be "new" challenges for us to conquer. I just hope to see the death penalty still be impactful at max level. Deleveling is supposedly on the table now and I think that's a great place to start.
Angrykiz said:Ah well, hopefully in my lifetime I will see such a game but with the rate of idiocracy growing sometimes I wonder if eventually we will all just be facerolling buttons while we "baitin" and playing a game that's just a hand scratching an ass.
Kiz~
Sounds like a loss of hope to me. I don't have to know you to read what you say on a forum and see that you're upset about something or you enjoy something. You express your thoughts and concerns on these forums through text.
Hopefully people understand that just because people say kid friendly, it doesn't mean the game is turning into a game meant for specifically kids. More concerned about the beginning gameplay, is it atleast easy for them to grasp the concept of W,A,S,D Space bar for jump, 123456 etc for spells? Obviously some kids will have parents and friends to help guide them.
I'm just saying, later on, you might find you'll be grouping with these kids and they will be learning, but you shouldn't turn away from them or shun them because they ARE kids. Unless they act really immature and you dont enjoy playing with them, that's understandable. That's what's so beautiful about Brad McQuaid making it. It's difficult where it needs to be, but it's also easy as well so it doesn't turn people off of the game. They get into it, they learn. "Oh hey, this is easy! Let's go do some dungeons!", "Oh crap, this is hard, I think we need to ask for some help from the chat to see what we are doing wrong". So then they find that they may need an Enchanter to Mez some mobs, but they only went in with all dps. Or maybe they find that most of them don't have enough gear and stats to part take in that dungeon yet. The list goes on... But the jist of it is: These kids later become you or I. Players that enjoyed the long difficult content of EQ1 or EQ2 or Vanguard. They enjoy different games, develop their skills along the way, and seek out another game to match the difficulty or variety they received in Pantheon. 20 years down the road, they will be us, waiting for another Pantheon.
16+ is my hope, not for the sake of restricting kids, but the majority are adults and i have seen bad things when kids hang out in adult games.
Maturity restrictions are in place for a reason. IF kids are being mentored by parents, it is my hope they play with them.
I also dont wish for a game of 20+ kids all being stupid, doing stupid things and the only groups available are those 10 yr old groups.
Been there too many times in these new gen games. I guess mindcraft lost it's lusture?
I remember running into players that were young in RL. I would go back to newbie zones to give-away excess stat food from baking. One time this player was not answering at all and darting around. Then a higher level player came running up and apologized for the other because he was 7 yrs old- lol.
The elder took that opportunity to teach the youngster how to trade- heh- he took the food. Then I tried ot think of what was fun, so for the next few I showed the clicky illusions I had- shrank myself- danced while shrunken in each illusion, all the emotes. Apparently it was good because as a waved goodbye the elder thanked me saying it was funny.
So if that is the case just let people know in zone, I suppose. But mostly I think the youngsters would get a kick form watching you play initially, like most watch streamers.Granted if you make it look easy they'll want to play lol.
But I think a stated MPAA like rating is a good idea, if also also to bring "gaming" to a sophisticated level, kind of like the example of Kevin Spacey character's small hobby in House of Cards.
I started EQ at age 7. Maturity ratings are there for ceremonial/lawful purposes at best. Mostly the 1% of parents who don't actually know how to parent so they blame video games for their children misbehaving.
Kind of getting off topic in this thread but those ratings don't really serve a purpose anyway.
There are legit horror games on the market that give 40 year olds jump scares, yet they fall under the same rating umbrella as Call of Duty. If that doesn't show how self-defeating the ratings system is, I don't know what will.