I think for a fantasy MMO to withold the mystique of the fantasy genre. The MMO universe cannot have a linear timeline. In everquest every time there is an expansion the entire game is then on the new timeline of the new expansion. And the mystique of the the previous content deminishes. I wish in everquest you could go from timeline to timeline. And when you return to a timeline you only have the items and skills etc that you left the timeline with. Every expansion should be a new timeline. And branch to the present, future and the past. Quest should have people returning to old timelines as well as new. Certain things you do in past timelines affect your character in later ones. This would also give the game an opportunity to change the landscape of old zones and fill them with higher lvl mobs and such. Everqust kind of tried this in a way but was executed poorly and for the most part the game becomes a large scale mess past the velious expansion. I would also make it so that characters that have completed previous timelines are more valuble than say a character that you created in the 5th expansion. A character that has done the previous 4 timelines has access to more quests and such and has hidden abilites etc. This would make it so veteran players hold Mystique over someone that starts out during the 5th expansion and gets to max lvl in 3 weeks and then gets a full set of a raid gear in that expansion. The veteran player has access to so much more because they have acctually been in the other 4 timelines.
Giving older players too many rewards just discourages new players from coming to your game. This is why catch up mechanics are so popular in modern themepark MMOs, however, the same holds true for a game like this. I wouldn't start Pantheon several years after release if it meant that there is a significant gap in character power.
As far as timelines go, I have no idea what you mean. The entire point of expansions is progression. Video games in general revolve around progression. Isolating progression to what practically amounts to instances severely diminshines the reward.
In addition, revamping classic zones is a terrible idea. If the classic zones are done well from the start, you're really just taking a dump on people's memories of when they started playing. Running around a world that is tangibly finite feels really cheap.
@Munge
I think I understand your post, and when reading it, it makes me think of Elder Scrolls Oblivion where mobs scaled to your level making a more sandbox experience where you go choose basically any path you wanted. While I like being able to choose the path I go, I do appreciate some linear elements in a game where mobs don't scale and you can effectively beat or trivialize content by achieving levels (or whatever the progression measure is). And, while there may be a most effective path there are options in each level range where you wouldn't have to follow the same pre-defined path as everyone else.
When I read your description of timelines, it almost makes me think of each expansion almost being an instance, and your character walking in to that instance and depending on your level, the mobs scale to you.
I get your reasoning on wanting to make all expansions relevant, and continue to be so, but I'd want to find creative ways to get people to return to zones versus revamping content.
I really don't understand what you mean about EQ expansions being different time lines. Its a single timeline with each expansion epanding the present and progressing the timeline. The lore of Everquest through expansions doesn't have you hoping back and forth in time (with the exceptions of Plane of Time which is really an event that leads to events happening in the current time).
I would really hate to see a game all broken up by instances and branching timelines. What I want to see in a game is a more real world feel. The game has a completely linear timeline, but the world changes. If I join the game 3 years in, and say starting cities and zones have been destroyed and new cities created, I shouldn't see the old stuff. Thats not how the world works. Those old zones would be gone forever, but you enter the world the same as anyone before you and progress the same as anyone else would through the current events of the world. I want a fluid world because thats how life is. Nothing stays the same. I don't like the idea of being able to choose which time period you can play in. If you join late then you have to read up on history to know the full story. Same as in life.
This is one thing I hope they do with the progeny system. Constantly (over many years not every year or several times a year) change the zone levels, layout, starting cities, dungeons, etc to keep it fresh. Have a low level newbie dungeon become a new high level dungeon. This will have veterans coming back to old zones for new reasons. Not just adjust the old npcs levels but have a Gnoll burrow become overrun with elementals after they dug too deep and disturbed something. The Gnolls get wiped out and now the burrow is full of high level elemntals. This brings SO much potential for great story telling within the context of a larger story included with a new expansion. It would create "generations" within the progeny system. every 3rd or 4th expansion might entice players to use the progeny system to re-roll and begin the leveling climb a new to experience the next generation of story telling. Keeping the servers from becoming top heavy and keeping a great mix of veterans that are restarting and new players joining the game. This is a BIG boon to the game's design. It would be amazingly easy for new players to step right in to the world and have tons of players to group with. Veterans would mingle with these new players giving them the social experience the game is trying to build and allowing old players to teach new players.
Building a fluid world like this that rewards old players for starting over would also help keep things like level cap and power creep in check. By spreading new content out over the entire level range so that to truely enjoy everything you'd need to restart, or mentor, would give players a chance at horizontal progression rather than purely verticle progression. Mixing the two into a hybrid progression model. that would be something increadibly unique, fun, and with longevity.
I think the point of the post was just about not loosing the emmense ammount of work and important Pantheon flavor due to linear progression (Expansions). Why not fold the new stuff throughout the old stuff. It could save time, assets (Money). Zones would not turn into ghost towns. New stuff is important and linnear progression is important. It is sad when the years that it took to make the old stuff becomes worthless.
Depending on how Progeny is utilized, old stuff will never become irrelevant. If players have a legitimate reason to continue rerolling through progeny, veteran players will keep every zone and every level range populated with their presence. The reason I am so excited about progeny is because I am the kind of player that likes to focus on one character. I'm not generally one to create alts so I have always had a tendency to stick to end-game once I got there. FFXI was the exception. I remember rerolling for sub-classes many times to enhance the power progression of my main character. The way they pulled off sub-classes, leveling up a level 20 still felt like "end-game" because it was relevant. That's the secret sauce for the recipe ... making all content feel relevant for all players, regardless of what character they are on.
To me the key to keeping older content relevant is giving higher level players a reason to visit them. Let the world be what it is, but give hi/lo level players a reason to interact (even if just in passing).
I would be wary of zone re-vamps (outside of graphical updates) to enourage high level chars to visit old haunts. At one point EQ did some re-work of the older zones/character models that fell pretty flat. The danger in re-works is you take away the familiarity players have built through playing and zones become unfamiliar and no longer a place to "visit". It breaks the sense of continuity players have developed in the world. Now if you could develop a system where the world changed and evolved dynamically in some natural fashion, I'd be for that. Sadly we're not there yet.
I'm also not a fan of the time-shifting thing that Warcraft did. Nor the time-travel mechanic several games have implemented. If I want to experience the older content, I'll start a new char (Progeny would help here) or I'll go hang out and help the newbies. If the game gives me a reason to do so, then all the better.
I like several of the early approaches EQ had to this (not sure if they were intended or not).
1) zones had a much larger level range. So instead of say a 10-15, it was more like 10-30. Dungeons were much the same as well. This doesn't help with much higher levels visiting prior zones, but it does help with developing attachments to zones/places in the world. There were a couple zones I truly enjoyed in Warcraft, but was there no longer than a week and that was with me stretching it as much as I could because I liked it so much. On the other hand, there were a few zones in EQ that I spent months hanging out in. There were others I never even played in. I liked this approach.
2) higher level zones often required travelling through lower level zones to get to them. And given that fast travel was limited, you would occasionally see a group of higher levels pass by while camping the newbie log. Sometimes they'd even stop and throw out some buffs or just chat for a bit. Really liked this as it gave a sense of "movement" to the game. There were places to go and something out there for me to get to.
3) you often had to return to your home city for upgrades in skills/spells. Pretty much the same experience as #2.
4) some higher level quests required components/steps that took you into lower level zones. This would be a great way to maintain older zones while integrating newer content. Still has some of the same pitfalls as re-working a zone, so would need to be used smartly and sparingly.
5) early lack of an AH led to higher level players going to lower level areas to buy farmed spell components. This continued until they added the bazaar and even for a bit after. Finding ways to make lower level items/skills/etc. relevant to higher level players is a great way to keep the world feeling alive.
Granted, in later expansions they went away from this and it became much more like the MMOs of today. I would hope as the game ages that they keep a lot of these same ideas going; involve the lower level areas/community in some of the higher level play. The deadzones we started to see as EQ aged were more a migration of players and a shift in content focus than the old zones needing re-vamps or upgrades. When there's no longer a reason to use older content, people stop using it; simple as that.
@Archaen
I very much agree with most of what you said, though I am a fan of zones being revamped (not changes in layout but changes to lvl range and npc content as long as there is a story reason for it). The EQ revamps were quite lame because there wasn't really a reason for any of it. They just boosted the level of current npcs and tried to call it new. Now if Cazic-Thule had been taken over by followers of another god and the lizards eradicated and there was a story behind it that lent more to the revamp, then I think that would have gone over better. Graphically the zone could have been cleaned up from a delapidated clump of ruins to a repaired and more fantastical place of worship for this other god. Keeping the over all layout while making it seem slightly "new". Thats the kind of revamp I would be happy to see because I want to see not only character progression but LORE progression. I don't just want lore to be something that happened a long time ago and never changes. I want to see the lore of the world evolve along with us. I want to be a part of the lore. I think rebuilding old areas and mixing up the world would be a great way to draw people into the game more.
Most, if not all of the other points you made on how EQ kept interaction up will be present in Pantheon, and it will be great I am sure. I am just not a big fan of purely vertical progression. Adding levels and tiered gear every year or two just gets old. I would love to see VR shake up the standard mix a bit with how progression works. Make it more of a diagonal progression. Vertical progression WILL always be required I think we can all agree. Never increasing level caps or power would get very boring for those who don't wish to reoll using progeny. Those people need something as well. Then adding in a more horizontal progression along side that would help those of us who enjoy the ride, but arne't interested in the big end game raiding but still want to become stronger. Progeny wouldn't really be required as with mentoring you could still group with new players and friends who have rerolled, but it does need to be somewhat attractive else it'll be a wasted feature. Having progression, and alternate progression, be built in to the progeny system and the plans for expansions long term just seems like a complete no brainer to me.
Much is made of horizontal versus vertical player progression.
But typically, MMO worlds have only progressed horizontally; i.e. gotten bigger, but old content stays static.
There are a few exceptions of course, but the biggest reason is probably economic.
Most players have no problem justifying the cost of an expac for totally new content, and charging for upgrades/changes to existing content is mostly unrecoupable maintenance cost to game devs. The problem is that the world usually just gets bigger. 90% of the new content is usually just scaled up stats for the next 5 or 10 character levels.
I am infatuated with the possibility of a dynamic world...I want the world to progress with us. You still have to have newbie zones and maintain sufficient amounts of accessible progression content, but what if some of the newbie content was what changed as the world grows?
The progeny system (I don't want to speculate on the mechanics of it so much as to the reason for its existence) seems to be addressing the need to incentivize experienced players having to slog through low-level content again. Maybe a bit of "new" low-level, even newbie-level content might help in that regard too.
corpserunner said:Much is made of horizontal versus vertical player progression.
But typically, MMO worlds have only progressed horizontally; i.e. gotten bigger, but old content stays static.
There are a few exceptions of course, but the biggest reason is probably economic.
Most players have no problem justifying the cost of an expac for totally new content, and charging for upgrades/changes to existing content is mostly unrecoupable maintenance cost to game devs. The problem is that the world usually just gets bigger. 90% of the new content is usually just scaled up stats for the next 5 or 10 character levels.
I am infatuated with the possibility of a dynamic world...I want the world to progress with us. You still have to have newbie zones and maintain sufficient amounts of accessible progression content, but what if some of the newbie content was what changed as the world grows?
The progeny system (I don't want to speculate on the mechanics of it so much as to the reason for its existence) seems to be addressing the need to incentivize experienced players having to slog through low-level content again. Maybe a bit of "new" low-level, even newbie-level content might help in that regard too.
Exactly what I am talking about. Expansions can contain new content and still stir up old content. It would be fantastic.