Understandable why these are done. Too many people of the same level in an area. I get why WoW or EQ2 did it. It seems to alliviate the camp fighting. However it brought in a whole new type of "I need instant gratification" in terms of finding their own little exp spot and for giving everyone a chance for good loot quick.
My biggest gripe with this is that everyone would find a group, just to do that zone. You'd need class X, Y and Z or it was a no go. AND, if the zone was started a namer was killed and then someone from the group had to leave, that whole group was almost done for. Seldom would people join a group where they knew the named of the zone they were being invited to was already killed and he (said boss) was the one that had the gear peice they needed.
I would much rather see presistant zones, but to do this, you'll need a lot of zone place for the influx of numbers of that level range. You gotta think, they'll be 500 level 10's, 20's, 30's progressing at the same time. If you force all these people to the same 1 or 2 exp/gear grind locations thats when they idea of pleading of instancingis shouted from the bell towers. But if you make plenty of places for groups to find a camping spot, then it's all good. Just IMO...
I hear your concern, and its very valid. I worry about this a lot but thankfully I feel less stressed about it after the live-stream featuring amberfaet.
You wrote
But if you make plenty of places for groups to find a camping spot, then it's all good. Just IMO...
And I think that is just what they are doing. Making sure the world is big enough with enough room for everyone. And on top of that creation of shards to make sure the populations are not crowded. VR is made up of a lot of people who have been on this ride before, they got it covered.
-Todd
Pantheon might be able to avoid this issue by just being a game that doesn't attract tens of thousands of long term customers.
All I know is we're going to need a ton of grind spots, though. Phinigel would literally be unplayable without the pick system, meaning every single mob in a given zone would probably be simultaneously dead and you'd be grinding at a deliciously efficient 1 mob per 20 minutes.
I wouldn't personally mind it if they implemented a pick (shard) system that would spawn duplicate copies of extremely overpopulated zones, as long as there were coherent collapsing mechanics to prevent the world from becoming saturated with many low population copies.
Liav said:Pantheon might be able to avoid this issue by just being a game that doesn't attract tens of thousands of long term customers.
All I know is we're going to need a ton of grind spots, though. Phinigel would literally be unplayable without the pick system, meaning every single mob in a given zone would probably be simultaneously dead and you'd be grinding at a deliciously efficient 1 mob per 20 minutes.
I wouldn't personally mind it if they implemented a pick (shard) system that would spawn duplicate copies of extremely overpopulated zones, as long as there were coherent collapsing mechanics to prevent the world from becoming saturated with many low population copies.
Lol, 100s of thousands of people are going to play Pantheon, but that doesn't change anything. Hundreds of thousands of people played EQ without instances, and it worked just fine. There was competition and it made your achievements feel worthwhile. That should be the goal, because that was what kept people playing and why new games struggle so much in that area.
9.0 Are dungeons open world or instanced?
All dungeons are open world. There are no plans for instanced dungeons at this time. The dungeons will be very large to handle multiple groups of players. More shards/servers will be added if overpopulation becomes a problem.
Pantheon has been designed this way from the beginning. Pages upon pages of discussion about this here:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1348/instanced-versus-non-instanced-areas
Dullahan said:
Lol, 100s of thousands of people are going to play Pantheon, but that doesn't change anything. Hundreds of thousands of people played EQ without instances, and it worked just fine. There was competition and it made your achievements feel worthwhile. That should be the goal, because that was what kept people playing and why new games struggle so much in that area.
Nimryl said:Dullahan said:
Lol, 100s of thousands of people are going to play Pantheon, but that doesn't change anything. Hundreds of thousands of people played EQ without instances, and it worked just fine. There was competition and it made your achievements feel worthwhile. That should be the goal, because that was what kept people playing and why new games struggle so much in that area.
The markets saturated with convience aspected games and while I wish this was true I highly doubt it. Times have changed. If you actually listened to the demographic of personalities out there.. all (most) they want is "be able todo their own thing" in games via convience. They've been catered for too long in my opinion; hence this attitude they have. 100's of thousand is "wishful thinking". Don't get me wrong I want Patheon todo well.. and I hope I'm wrong.. and I hope it's millions.. but I've done alot of arguing over the years with fans fighting our corner.. "on the front lines". 100's of thousands I just can't see it happening... 10's of thousands sure. 100's? nahh. -- But one thing they definetly will have tho is longevity and a loyal fan base that'll be playing for years and years.
Anyway VR has already stated their going for a more horizontal approach.. meaning their will be more zones/places to level. It's one way of tackling it.. but it's more costly/time consuming I'd imagine.
The more zones; the bigger the world.. the more exciting the world will be to explore... and the better the adventure!
Easily hundreds of thousands. The number of people currently playing mmos is a drop in the bucket of those playing video games in general. They simply do not appeal to most people in their current form. Based on what I've witnessed on gaming forums over the last 2 decades, I strongly believe that will change with Pantheon should it release in a polished state without compromising core philosophy (a completely open, highly cooperative, unforgiving virtual world).
People seem to forget that even an unfinished Vanguard in direct competition with WoW at it's peak, was able to draw hundreds of thousands initially. To think Pantheon won't be able to do as well or better a decade later now that gaming has gone mainstream, and with twice the people on the internet, just doesn't make much sense to me.
Dullahan said:
Easily hundreds of thousands. The number of people currently playing mmos is a drop in the bucket compared to those playing video games in general. They simply do not appeal to most people in their current form. Based on what I've witnessed on gaming forums over the last 2 decades, I strongly believe that will change with Pantheon should it release in a polished state without compromising core philosophy.People seem to forget that even an unfinished Vanguard in direct competition with WoW at it's peak, was able to draw hundreds of thousands initially. To think Pantheon won't be able to do as well or better a decade later with many more gamers and twice the people on the internet, just doesn't make much sense to me.
Nimryl said:Dullahan said:
Easily hundreds of thousands. The number of people currently playing mmos is a drop in the bucket compared to those playing video games in general. They simply do not appeal to most people in their current form. Based on what I've witnessed on gaming forums over the last 2 decades, I strongly believe that will change with Pantheon should it release in a polished state without compromising core philosophy.People seem to forget that even an unfinished Vanguard in direct competition with WoW at it's peak, was able to draw hundreds of thousands initially. To think Pantheon won't be able to do as well or better a decade later with many more gamers and twice the people on the internet, just doesn't make much sense to me.
I hope your right.. but from my perspective... alot of my older serious eq/wow-vanilla co-op buddies have "left the genre" for irl around mid to end-wrath of the lich king era. They gave up. Lost contact with them over the years.. the two I still have on a friends list which I havent spoken to in years have also quit MMORPGS (recently talked too). Can't see it myself. But I like your thinking! :)
Lets hope this brings mmorpgs back to what they should be about! Friends & Co-op.. else what's the point in making it a MMO at all right? :)
Right. Making them about friends (as well as rivals) and co-op play is what is currently missing from the recipe. Despite that co-op is still technically available in current MMOs, when it becomes the foundation of the game, that unlocks it's full potential and what made massively multiplayer games appealing to begin with. I do not believe it is possible to have wider appeal without harnessing that aspect further.
Dullahan said:
Right. Making them about friends (as well as rivals) and co-op play is what is currently missing from the recipe. Despite that co-op is still technically available in current MMOs, when it becomes the foundation of the game, that unlocks it's full potential and what made massively multiplayer games appealing to begin with. I do not believe it is possible to have wider appeal without harnessing that aspect further.
Nimryl said:Dullahan said:
Right. Making them about friends (as well as rivals) and co-op play is what is currently missing from the recipe. Despite that co-op is still technically available in current MMOs, when it becomes the foundation of the game, that unlocks it's full potential and what made massively multiplayer games appealing to begin with. I do not believe it is possible to have wider appeal without harnessing that aspect further.
Technically yes it's there If you can call it that (facerolling). As for harnessing it.. oh how I wish that was true. But err I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. What you fail to realise is that most people:
Don't have the time to invest in the game. (hence instant-gratification)
Don't want to relay on others todo stuff. (hence solo content whining)
Don't want to share. (hence the sub appeal to all of this.)
^ and They are (sadly) the majority.
I honestly thought it was companies mass marketing.. but to be fair on them... that is the market now... before it wasn't like that. Anyone could make anything and they'd accept it.. but nowadays.. nope. Brainwashed & entitled.
There has never been a shortage of things competing for my time. That life has somehow changed due to technological convenience is merely reasoning thrown about to justify making things easier. I literally had innumerable options for recreation in the '90s, just as youth have today. As an adult I have the same responsibilities my parents had then.
Playing an mmorpg has always involved a commitment of time. Particularly when they used to be sticky. The failure to make them sticky has gone hand in hand with convenience. When your success in an mmo is trivialized by an easier solo design, people stop playing.
Nimryl said:The markets saturated with convience aspected games and while I wish this was true I highly doubt it. Times have changed. ......
Anyway VR has already stated their going for a more horizontal approach.. meaning their will be more zones/places to level. It's one way of tackling it.. but it's more costly/time consuming I'd imagine.
The more zones; the bigger the world.. the more exciting the world will be to explore... and the better the adventure!
Thats what I'm hoping. That there are place, and so many of them, at ever level incriment, that I may never see some of the prime leveling spots. Maybe I'll get to my 5th alt before I find a spot other people have used to level everytime, or maybe I'll show people my spots that they never knew about.
But to you're first point, yes, I agree completely. People are so conditioned for instant gratification now-a-days that when a hardercore (not even hardcore) game like Pantheon release, they are going to be bombarded with troves upon troves of people who are bemoaning the grind. There will be pitchforked mobs demanding VR make it easier. God I pray the VR team holds true.
Those of us here, who want the forever grind, who want to see 3 weeks pass before the first person reaches max level, who want things to matter, are a small group. Pantheon might have a good number of fans, but they are fans of a game they want their way. Once it's released and not their way, they are going to go balistic.
Nanoushka said: It wouldn't surprise me if people will complain once it's released. I think if VR simply sticks to their vision for this game and are willing to let players adjust to the mindset, that it will work out fine longterm. Many people complain about the lack of real satisfaction and social interaction. Either those will stick, or they will return once they've made peace with Pantheon as it is, or they'll give it a shot when they see people are actually enjoying it. So many people enjoy more difficult and challenging games. I don't think it's an 'our generation' kinda thing, many younger players want a game with more substance as well. I'm very curious how it'll work out.
I agree to a point, esp considering this game is being made with the old EQ mentality. You KNOW going in its going to be hard and nothing is going to be given to you. No yellow brick roads here. Millenials I think will have a hard time overall with this game as there wont be any sort of instant gratification built into it. Its going to take time and work *gasp* for ppl to actually get to max and achieve whatever goals they have in mind. I know ppl will say, "Im not paying for a game to work", but thats part of why when you got to max, got your epic weapon, etc you really felt you achieved something in EQ.
Bazgrim said:9.0 Are dungeons open world or instanced?
All dungeons are open world. There are no plans for instanced dungeons at this time. The dungeons will be very large to handle multiple groups of players. More shards/servers will be added if overpopulation becomes a problem.
Pantheon has been designed this way from the beginning. Pages upon pages of discussion about this here:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1348/instanced-versus-non-instanced-areas
Thank you, Baz :)
As Bazgrim kindly pointed out, we not only answer this in our FAQ but we already have several threads on this topic, one of which has been linked, so I will go ahead and close this, please use the search function and join already active threads instead of creating new ones please, as we like to keep all information consolidated on these development forums for easier collection.