Just curious. How deep can mob AI get? or, when will something like this be possbile.
Example of what I would love to see:
You are wandering thru a forest like Kithicor and a dark robed mob slides out from behind a tree or shadows engages you in combat:
if he will clearly be the victor, he roots you, stops killing you, and starts talking to you. (this would be a solo encounter)
"You are weak! Remember my name! and do not enter my forest again"
"lets see if your friends think you are worthy of saving"
Dark robe casts Melting Veins on you.
"Go ahead an scream, I know it's painful" ... he laughs and runs off.
The spell he casts on you is a slow DoT that can kill you if you don't get someone to dispell it.
This could be where it gets more interesting. The root could last for 3-5 minutes and the DoT would tick for 3-5min.
You would either need to shout for /help and people would have to come TO you to help with heals, dispells etc or even if the root broke after 1-2 min, the DoT would kill you in 5 min if you didn't get help.
I remember diseases from Mummies and Ghouls in EC would kill if they didn't get Cured. I don't think this is too harsh.
It would promote people helping others, and add a dynamic where combat wouldn't just be static back and forth hits until one side is dead.
The NPC, instead of killing you, enjoys the torture of inevitable death, even after he departs the scene, laughing all the way.
I am sure this is poorly presented but I think you get the idea. How far can AI go? is something like this possible? or someday in the future.
You could also use something like this for the Perception system. Maybe when he starts talking to you, he says "You are weak!" Get out of my forest, you will not find the Silver Shard while I rule this area"
Perception could kick in and this would prompt you to wonder about a Silver Shard.
He would still root and DoT you and run off laughing.
That's actually pretty basic AI. Zippyzee could probably create that example you gave in a day. It's an interesting idea, but the real question is whether or not that would be a "fun" experience in an MMO. The theory is good. But in practice, I'm honestly not sure.
To answer your first question, AI has immense potential. It just depends on how many years you wanna spend developing it. But your example is easy :)
I didn't think it would be overly complicated to do something like that. I get what you mean. Would this be fun in an MMO?
But, the alternative, using my examle above. If you came across this mob, solo, and he was a yellow or red KOS con. Would you rather just Die in combat, with no chance at living?
Or, would you like that he is toying with you, You WILL die, but he gives you an "hour glass" chance to live and start searching for more Silver Shard info.
I would rather have the mob torture me and run off rather than: BOOM BOOM BOOM: you have died.
That could be executed relatively easily with scripting. All AI currently is just scripting, and it's up for debate as to whether or not we'll ever get past that. Philosophy with regards to artificial intelligence is an ongoing thing with no clear consensus. Truly deep AI will happen when it can learn. Even learning can be scripted to an extent, so is that even really "learning"? Anyways, getting off the deep end here.
This is already possible but I'm not a fan of it. The presented scenario is not something I want to see at all, and I would honestly extend that to all incurable DoTs.
Liav said:That could be executed relatively easily with scripting. All AI currently is just scripting, and it's up for debate as to whether or not we'll ever get past that. Philosophy with regards to artificial intelligence is an ongoing thing with no clear consensus. Truly deep AI will happen when it can learn. Even learning can be scripted to an extent, so is that even really "learning"? Anyways, getting off the deep end here.
This is already possible but I'm not a fan of it. The presented scenario is not something I want to see at all, and I would honestly extend that to all incurable DoTs.
it's not an incurable DoT. The NPC would otherwise just kill you because you agro'd the higher con mob.
Instead of a few spells and you die. he stops killing you, DoTs you, roots you. in his crazy mind, you will die, slowly.
I am looking for a way to maybe live thru and encounter with help from others, rather than just being killed in basic back and forth combat.
Naim said:it's not an incurable DoT. The NPC would otherwise just kill you because you agro'd the higher con mob.
Instead of a few spells and you die. he stops killing you, DoTs you, roots you. in his crazy mind, you will die, slowly.
I am looking for a way to maybe live thru and encounter with help from others, rather than just being killed in basic back and forth combat.
I still have my objections to something like that but regardless, it's entirely within the ability of scripting to do so.
Naim said:I didn't think it would be overly complicated to do something like that. I get what you mean. Would this be fun in an MMO?
But, the alternative, using my examle above. If you came across this mob, solo, and he was a yellow or red KOS con. Would you rather just Die in combat, with no chance at living?
Or, would you like that he is toying with you, You WILL die, but he gives you an "hour glass" chance to live and start searching for more Silver Shard info.
I would rather have the mob torture me and run off rather than: BOOM BOOM BOOM: you have died.
I would rather just die than possibly spend 3-5 minutes standing there waiting to die if the zone is empty or no one comes to help. Alternatively it would only be punishing to classes without self healing/dispell.
Plus I just hate that trope of the evil entity revealing details about something special/powerful when attempting to kill someone.
I recommend you take a look at the AI that was being worked on by Storybricks for the now-canned EverQuest Next. Some of the stuff they were working on and wanted to do looked great. Instead of static NPCs and worlds it would evolve and learn, reacting to what players did and changing in a number of ways.
Grant it, it's one thing to say something, another to deliver it. But some of the stuff those guys talked up would be fantastic to see in an MMORPG one day. Shame EQN got cancelled and Storybricks got shuttered not long after. Now we'll never see what they were cooking up.
Monologue-ing! (sp?) haha!
Yes it is a trope but because it is so trope, it may be like an easter egg kind of thing. I would actually think it was kind of funny in a hidden meme kind of way.(two-tone curias)
Plus it would give me incentive to come back an higher levels and take care of unfinished business.
it's all good. I also have objections to being killed by a KOS npc that would normally "wipe the floor with me" or "what would you like your tombstone to say"
Trying to run to a zone line while fighting a caster NPC with root, stun, DoTs etc doesn't work very well.
I would rather have the NPC role play a little and give me a chance to live, even though he thinks its inevitable I will die from his DoT.
I like the idea of mobs having fun with our inevitable death rather and exchange hits until I die. (which in my example, you would just die if you just did regular back and forth combat)
The idea here is: I just came across a mob while exploring. Normally, this encounter would be: Agro, fight, and you die. (he's a yellow or red con)
In my idea, he casts on you, takes you to Half health in One spell. That gives him confidence to torture kill you instead of just Boom, dead.
At least now I have a chance to get player help via Heals, dispells, cures etc.
and as Mon said: gives you a reason to come back at higher level and seek him out for more info on the Silver shard.
Only this time, you are clearly going to be the Victor and he offers you info on the shard to 'spare' him.
so from the players point of view, you go somewhere, suddenly you get killed, but not even instantly: you also have to waste 5 mins (reading a book?) until you can respawn. doesn't sound very exciting. i'd prefer the hill giant that one-hits me. looking for a rez afterwards is enough interaction if you like that.
letsdance said:so from the players point of view, you go somewhere, suddenly you get killed, but not even instantly: you also have to waste 5 mins (reading a book?) until you can respawn. doesn't sound very exciting. i'd prefer the hill giant that one-hits me. looking for a rez afterwards is enough interaction if you like that.
That's kinda what I'm thinking. There would have to be some option to just succumb to the spell and die instantly if it looks like the zone is empty and your guildies aren't going to be able to get to you on time.
I'm just having a hard time thinking of an actual potential scenario where that would all play out as you expect. 5 mins of standing still is a long time - if the zone is really all that dangerous, you'd probably just get jumped and killed by a wandering mob before anyone could get to you. Basically seems like a waste of time.
Naim said: It's all good people would rather look for the negative Nancy way of shooting down any kind of idea they didn't come up with themselves rather than looking at the potential and building on it. You guys don't want anything new or exciting or different you just want EverQuest all over again with new graphics. Maybe the mob cast a suffocating sphere that any one could help with including Melee beat the barrier down. Casting or hitting from the Inside would help. Must be beat down, dispelled etc from outside. Can't cast heals inside the barrier. Etc. Five whole minutes, what a waste.... Never mind you were going to die and lose an hours worth of experience instead Whatever ...
Naim I can't tell if your being sarcastic or? Feedback is good. Even if other folks don't agree with you at this point. I guess my point is be prepared to get other opinions tossed in the mix. Its not that your idea is bad it really isn't. I kind of like the idea. Something you have to understand though is while many of us want features of EQ or VG or whatever old school MMORPG, one thing is apparent juts from the dev videos: And that is it will have similer features from past MMO's but they are in fact adding a lot of new stuff that are not in any other game.
I guess at the end of the day just have an open mind when you post. We all need to debate these topics, but rather then get upset about it and post something like you did, continue the conversation. Nobody is going to bash you for your idea, they will just point out pro's and cons.
We are all hoping this game is a hit in more then one way. Most of us just want what the devs want and thats a return to an idology in gaming that has been all but forgotten. Peace man, and keep the ideas coming.
This is more than possible with the AI system that's under the hood, even in its current state of development. Fits in with many types of scenarios that I've run through my head during the design process to ensure that we can easily create a variety of stimuli (player getting close to this npc) and handlers (determine what to do). The handler in this case would check to see if the player is alone, if they are reasonably safe combat-wise, and then run the script to do the dialog and use the ability. The handler would have other options to start the traditional responses as necessary, whether they be attack or flee, or whatever the npc is prone to do in that situation.
Iksar said:Plus I just hate that trope of the evil entity revealing details about something special/powerful when attempting to kill someone.
This idea would actually very good if used in very limited doses. Like one Mob per continent or something. The problem with it is (as Iksar pointed out) very few creatures, intelligent or otherwise, would take the time to talk to someone they assumed would be dead shortly. It is not like you (the target) is the first thing the Mob ever killed. I doubt this circumstance would be special for the mob.
However, if there were one or two "crazed" magicians or a psychotic death knight who did this it would be awesome! Emphasis here on the Mob being insane, or crazed, or psychotic. This would leave a very memorable experience and I bet people would be talking about it years later. "Hey, remember that crazy wight-knight thing in Kithicor? Whats his name? The one that taunted you as you slowly died?" This would add some character and a memorable experience to the game, imho.
JDNight said:Iksar said:Plus I just hate that trope of the evil entity revealing details about something special/powerful when attempting to kill someone.
This idea would actually very good if used in very limited doses. Like one Mob per continent or something. The problem with it is (as Iksar pointed out) very few creatures, intelligent or otherwise, would take the time to talk to someone they assumed would be dead shortly. It is not like you (the target) is the first thing the Mob ever killed. I doubt this circumstance would be special for the mob.
However, if there were one or two "crazed" magicians or a psychotic death knight who did this it would be awesome! Emphasis here on the Mob being insane, or crazed, or psychotic. This would leave a very memorable experience and I bet people would be talking about it years later. "Hey, remember that crazy wight-knight thing in Kithicor? Whats his name? The one that taunted you as you slowly died?" This would add some character and a memorable experience to the game, imho.
Now that is exactly what I'm talking about. This type of encounter wouldn't be everywhere it would just be and that special dark corner somewhere.
My main point being from my example that people tend to be shooting down is whether or not we actually are at a point in NPC behavior to make such a thing happen.
The NPC would know you were alone and that it could kill you, but being that the NPC is a crazed torture loving individual, he loves to flaunt the fact that you will die from the spell he just castes on you, and he runs off cackling about it.
Again, it could be used to trigger a perception ability that could be followed up on later (since obviously you can't kill the red con NPC alone)
And I would find it Very fun to see someone shout "can anyone help me, this mad man cast a spell on me and I'm going to die in three minutes if someone doesn't break the barrier down."
So first I wanted to know if the AI was possible yet, and also was looking for a fun way to MAYBE avoid certain death rather than take 2 hours exp loss, and a 30 minute naked corpse run because you wanted to explore a dark corner of a zone all by yourself.
Naim said:"Go ahead an scream, I know it's painful" ... he laughs and runs off.
It might be cool if he didn't run off.
You dispell the root and begin to run.
he laughs again, "You shall not get away that easy!!"
- you are snared!
"You can try to run!!!"
- You have taken 100HP in non-melee damge
- You are rooted!
Your bow has hit [Evil Mob] for 25HP
Your bow Crits! [Evil Mob] for 250HP!!
The ground around you erupts in flame
- You have taken 100HP in fire damage
- You have taken 100HP in fire damage
- You have taken 100HP in fire damage
"Scream Louder!, your friends have not heard you!"
You feel your soul begin to drain
- You take 25hp of non melee damage
- You take 25hp of non melee damage
...
- You take 25hp of non melee damage
You have died!