Since the game is not focussed around raid content, VR should go balls to the wall and make high level raids has hard as possible, not many players will get to do it, and because not many of the best items come from raiding there's no problem in making it inaccessible to most of the player base, this way players that really like raiding get to have their fun and challenge.
With this said, I believe there should be easier "entry level" raids for those that want to try raiding, but the rest should be pretty hard.
Fluffy said:You could also rephrase it like *if casual gamers can't get into raids is mediocre equipement the best they deserve?*
Well, small risk, small reward.
Hardcore gamers would very much be disappointed if a random casual could easily obtain the same gear as theirs, for which they grinded/tryharded for hours.
I know there's this common trend about equality for all, utopy, in real life, but c'mon... This is a game, this isn't real life.
Let hardworking gamers get better rewards, it's logical to earn better rewards by spending more time for them.
jpedrote said:With this said, I believe there should be easier "entry level" raids for those that want to try raiding, but the rest should be pretty hard.
Oh god please, no, not this WoW LFR "easymode" system. Nope, nope, nope.
Anyways, since there will not be instancied dungeons/raids as they said in a previous stream, it can't happen. Phew.
jpedrote said:Since the game is not focussed around raid content, VR should go balls to the wall and make high level raids has hard as possible, not many players will get to do it, and because not many of the best items come from raiding there's no problem in making it inaccessible to most of the player base, this way players that really like raiding get to have their fun and challenge.
With this said, I believe there should be easier "entry level" raids for those that want to try raiding, but the rest should be pretty hard.
I was going to say something similar but this pretty much sums it up.
bobwinner said:Fluffy said:You could also rephrase it like *if casual gamers can't get into raids is mediocre equipement the best they deserve?*Well, small risk, small reward.
Hardcore gamers would very much be disappointed if a random casual could easily obtain the same gear as theirs, for which they grinded/tryharded for hours.
I know there's this common trend about equality for all, utopy, in real life, but c'mon... This is a game, this isn't real life.
Let hardworking gamers get better rewards, it's logical to earn better rewards by spending more time for them.
greater risks vs greater rewards.
In order to take those risks you have to be able to expose yourself to the danger
Problem is,if they are excluded from the content they don't exactly get the chance to work hard to earn better rewards.
It appears you are actually in favor of equality for all ;everyone has to work hard to earn their reward
If casuals have it easier to obtain same gear it wouldn't exactly be equality when hardcores had to work hard
But because everyone needs to be able to take on the challenge ,I'm in favor of public dynasty missions instead
bobwinner said:jpedrote said:With this said, I believe there should be easier "entry level" raids for those that want to try raiding, but the rest should be pretty hard.Oh god please, no, not this WoW LFR "easymode" system. Nope, nope, nope.
Anyways, since there will not be instancied dungeons/raids as they said in a previous stream, it can't happen. Phew.
Lol you got me completly wrong, XD i hate LFR never, ever, ever do I want to see something similar to see it in another MMO.
By entry level I meant raids that are tunned for a lower level therefore are easier. Let's say max level is 50, so an entry level raid would be a lvl 40-45 zone that still requires a raid team to beat, giving players that want to try raiding a way to do it.
Honestly I think the BEST gear in the game should come from a myriad of sources, deep in hard dungeons, complicated raids, and tradeskills or multiple trade skills, with rare/no drop components way off the beaten track.
So that in order to be fully kitted out you literally have to do ALL the content, not just phone it in for a few hours, a couple nights a week (tthat could apply to either group or raid players).
Sunmistress said:Honestly I think the BEST gear in the game should come from a myriad of sources
agree,
but also hoped not everything would revolve around gear . Seems like one old tradition here to stay
But there is still room for an excitement dance after what is shown today <3
Fluffy said:Sunmistress said:Honestly I think the BEST gear in the game should come from a myriad of sources
agree,
but also hoped not everything would revolve around gear . Seems like one old tradition here to stay
But there is still room for an excitement dance after what is shown today <3
People like to obtain shiney things. It's our culture. They want to make their character look badass, and want their appearance to represent the challenges they've overcome in game. They want for the most difficult tasks to provide the shiniest things.
I dont have a problem with the best tailor having the most beautiful silken dress/suit. I don't mind the best flower-picker having the most extravagant bouquet. But I do think that the most badass looking armor should come from combat against the most badass foes, and the best silken dress and the most extravagant bouquet should be useful in combat only in so much as to make you the best looking corpse.
That's sort of what I was trying to convey.
A massive timesink, maybe you need materials from the inside of a Volcano, blood collected from a fire giant king, the fangs of a dragon, something from an ultra rare spawn.
Something that most won't be willing to hunt for, and take a crap load of time to do (possibly involving multiple tradeskills and a chance to fail) but anyone e willing and able to deal with such a vast amount of work would be rewarded.
Sunmistress said:Sauron's rings were crafted.
And it took a serious badass capable of domination of a legion of evil, taming the fires of Mordor, and using the most powerful of arcane magics that bent the wills of all races. Sauron's power was across many disciplines, both physical and magical, his knowledge of the world vast, and so made his ability to craft those rings possible.
He was not a metalsmith who'd never ventured out of his home town who got lucky.
Feyshtey said:Sunmistress said:Sauron's rings were crafted.
And it took a serious badass capable of domination of a legion of evil, taming the fires of Mordor, and using the most powerful of arcane magics that bent the wills of all races. Sauron's power was across many disciplines, both physical and magical, his knowledge of the world vast, and so made his ability to craft those rings possible.
He was not a metalsmith who'd never ventured out of his home town who got lucky.
I don't recall saying it should be easy. I said it should be possible.
I don't see why someone who spends hours upon hours farming rare/ultra rare mats, maxing multiple trade skills, and then taking a chance (not guaranteed) to make a piece of gear, say in a forge in the heart of an absolutely hostile dungeon, should not be rewarded commensurate with the effort.
I wasn't talking about making a suit of banded mail or such.
Sunmistress said:I don't recall saying it should be easy. I said it should be possible.
I don't see why someone who spends hours upon hours farming rare/ultra rare mats, maxing multiple trade skills, and then taking a chance (not guaranteed) to make a piece of gear, say in a forge in the heart of an absolutely hostile dungeon, should not be rewarded commensurate with the effort.
I wasn't talking about making a suit of banded mail or such.
And I fully agree with you. I was responding more to suggestions that a player should be able to get great gear without focusing on combat, difficult group encounters, or raids, which is what this thread had lead into.
The debate of should players who don't have the time to raid be able to get loot comparable to someone who raids hardcore depends on how you make sense of where the best gear should come from. Are you someone who believes a raid boss who requires 30 ppl should definitely have better gear than a boss of same level who only requires 6 ppl because he has the power to withstand dozens of ppl? Or do you think the quality of the gear should depend on how hard the challenge of the fight is? Maybe that raid boss requires 30 ppl but most guilds can defeat him given just a small amount of time where this 1group boss might only have a small percentage of the server who are able to defeat him with level appropriate gear. If you ask me, it's a tough one. My conundrum is some single group bosses I have fought have been WAY harder than some raid bosses and shouldn't THAT be worth something? But I lean towards thinking logically and a boss who requires 30 people is just stronger than a boss who requires only 6 and therefore should have stronger more powerful gear.
Anywho. I think it's great that PRF is placing less emphasis on raiding. The intended 15-20% sounds comparable to Vanguard which makes VG seem like a good place to start to draw comparisons of what raiding in Pantheon might look like. Unlike EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Rift, ESO, etc VG only had the 1 single raid zone where these other MMOs have handfuls of raid zones where multiple raid bosses can be found. VG had APW and then the rest of the entire set of raid bosses could be found scattered throughout the world. Some simply as an overland boss with little requirements to complete before engaging and others who were part of large quest lines. I think this is maybe something we can see happening in PRF.
So how to close this gap for people who can't raid? First raid bosses drop crafting materials which crafters can make and trade/sell to whomever. Then where a raid boss might have 7 items it can drop, a challenging single group boss who could have 2 items equal in power and then maybe have like 7 items it can drop that are slightly less powerful.
I think handling it this way still gives raiders the best of the best gear hands down. Challenging single group content should just never have 1:1 equal gear. But someone who doesn't have the time to raid can hopefully either get crafted raid gear or take on the challenging single group content and maybe not get every item slot equal in power but a good amount while filling out the other slots with items that are VERY close in power and that are much stronger than regular boss drops.
It's late and I'm probaly rambling by now so I have no clue if this even makes sense lol. Cheers! :D
NoobieDoo said:The debate of should players who don't have the time to raid be able to get loot comparable to someone who raids hardcore depends on how you make sense of where the best gear should come from. Are you someone who believes a raid boss who requires 30 ppl should definitely have better gear than a boss of same level who only requires 6 ppl because he has the power to withstand dozens of ppl? Or do you think the quality of the gear should depend on how hard the challenge of the fight is? Maybe that raid boss requires 30 ppl but most guilds can defeat him given just a small amount of time where this 1group boss might only have a small percentage of the server who are able to defeat him with level appropriate gear. If you ask me, it's a tough one. My conundrum is some single group bosses I have fought have been WAY harder than some raid bosses and shouldn't THAT be worth something? But I lean towards thinking logically and a boss who requires 30 people is just stronger than a boss who requires only 6 and therefore should have stronger more powerful gear.
I know in FFXIV some of the raids were rather difficult, and those were for 8 players so having very challenging 6 man boss fights should be far off.
I think the main problem I have with assuming a raid boss has the best loot is...why? Just because they are powerful doesn't mean they have the best stuff. Look at the real world, countless artifacts, weapons, etc were passed off/stolen/lost in time. Granted things in real life aren't magical, but it shouldn't make a difference. I mean unless everything lives forever in Terminus then I think it stands that some of the most powerful items may have found themselves in the possession of non-raid targets. DnD is often full of examples of rogue mages stumbling upon powerful staves/medallions/etc or warriors who happen to find immensely powerful swords/armors which they then use to rally up some followers etc. Using the LotR example, Smeagol had The Ring for centuries but he was far from powerful etc.
I think it's less about assuming that the most powerful beings have the best stuff, and more about a logical progression in gameplay.
Imagine a player who got the best item in the game from a dungeon named. Then he spends countless hours with dozens of guildmates progressing and learning to tackle a difficult (not even the hardest) raid. The loot drops and his reaction is ... Meh?
It takes some of the awe out of the gameworld.
I personally never plan on raiding again. I simply have far too many other commitments in my life to do so. But I have always loved to hears stories and see the powerful attained by others. To me its not at all unlike imaging that my pudgy middle-aged ass could have gone to the NHL if only I had the time...
In EQ the power gap was massive in the mid age range (POP thru TBS) I remember having to go back and 1 group things like POTime, Elemental bosses, Qvic goats, Anguish bosses to gear up apps because the gear was 2x to 4x better than the best they could get in group content.
I mean those were some of the most fun times I ever had in a game, but such a massive disparity made 0 sense to me.
Better gear sure, but hopefully not 2x to 4x better. That just sseems excessive and making tuning group content overly difficult.
Everything about this game reecks EQ1 and if they want to stay true to that notion, raiding should offer the best items.
Am I saying that raiders should be 5 times stronger than people who enjoy group content? No. But there should be SOME difference, due to challenge and time commitment.
Zazazuu said:I understand AngryKiz thoughts, because in the Guild Office Forum are 42 Posts from guilds
- 9 guilds did not mentioned the word "raid" or "raiding"
- 3 of those 9 guilds do raids after checking out their websites
- and the rest, 33 guilds (!!!), wanna do raids!
yeah i don't believe that only 10-15% of people want to raid either. the reason why only so many people raid is usually, that they cannot do it (for various reasons). i love raiding, but rarely do, because of a lack of time. still i'd like to see lots of raid content, so i can have a look at it when possible. more raid content also makes it better accessible for those who'd like to do it but have troubles actually doing it.
I think a system where the quantity is greater in a raid vs a group is a good balance. So you have options to raid as a guild to obtain gear faster, or go the group route and have options available to you but at a slower pace.
Either way I hope they mimic a lot of stuff from EQ1 here. Where group content has plenty of options to get gear that is really good, raid gear is marginally better. I'm more interested in seeing how instances, mob scarcity and player managed systems play out. Probably because of my time on p99 I have seen where greed takes over and people monopolize content and restrict others simply because they can.