I made a reply in another post, but I think the idea really has a broader aspect to it:
Rags8o said:I think it is an interesting idea. I like the idea of multiple crafters having to venture deep into a mountian and attempt to craft an epic item at an old possibly forgotten forge. Hell, make an encounter out of it. Have said crafters need to be protected from incomming goblins / evil dwarves because they are disturbing this forge.
Renathras said:The one thing I don't like about this idea is the INSTANT you introduce combat, it no longer is a crafting party/raid, it's a combat party/raid with a crafting "wing".
MMOs are all too often about killing things. Consider your average MMO - EQ, WoW, FF11/14 - think about the sheer NUMBER of things you've killed in those games. Between animals and sentient Humans/Orcs/Elves/etc., your character is basically a mass murderer and has committed genocide against both sentient species and animal life, and often plant life as well. It's actually pretty horrible if you think about it.
And the sad thing is, there's no real alternatives to advancement in MOST games. Oh sure, NOW in WoW you can pick up herbalism/mining and, depending on where you start the game (class/race), you can POTENTIALLY level to max level without killing anything, but this is almost impossible. Likewise, in FF14, you can pick up crafting/gathering (after level 10 in a combat class) and then never again use your character for combat if you want.
But, for the most part, MMOs are all about conflict resolution...THROUGH CONFLICT. The military option isn't simply the preferred option, it's THE ONLY OPTION.
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Are you a Rogue/Thief trying to procure a quest item from an enemy NPC?
Well, you're going to be killing him. What's that, you say? Sneak to him and pick his pocket? CLASS IDENTITY?! What witchcraft do you speak of?! THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE ITEM IS TO KILL HIM!!
Are you an Enchanter trying to procure a quest item from an enemy NPC?
Well, you're going to be killing him. What's that, you say? Control his mind and the minds of his bodyguards through adept spellcraft and convince him to give the item to you? CLASS IDENTITY?! What witchcraft do you speak of?! THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE ITEM IS TO KILL HIM!!
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And on and on, but you get the point. EVERY solution to EVERY problem in MMOs is always to kill some things.
...I, for one, think it would be nice if there were paths of advancement that didn't. Crafting is one of the best places to look for that, since it's really the only thing that makes a lot of sense to get experience from doing things other than killing. Though there are two other examples I can think of:
1) Spell casters (especially healers) gaining XP every time they use a spell producing an actual effect. Imagine, for example, healers that walk around healing people. Not "overhealing" (people already full on health), but healing people who are damaged. Does it not make sense that said healer would gain some experience/ability by doing so? It makes FAR more sense for a healer to gain xp by CASTING HEALS (you know, that thing they DO) than it does for them to get a chunk of xp when a dungeon boss that they didn't even attack dies from their other party members attacking it. You could extend this somewhat to melee characters attacking target dummies with active skills (prevents abuse of afk auto-attack) and the like as well - think martial artists practicing techniques hours per day to improve.
2) People practicing other skills - for example, Bards playing music in the streets of major cities. Real life musicians improve, not by killing dragons, but by - I know this is going to come as a shock to you all - PLAYING their INSTRUMENT. Often in the quiet of their own homes, but sometimes in city streets! I mean...I know it's hard to believe that they don't even have to be in a dungeon surrounded by enemies, but it's TRUE!
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Anyway...I'm now blabbing, so...whatever. Just wanted to make the point. :)
Feel free to stand outside starting cities holding placards with "Save the Giant Rat! and/or "Just because it's a horrible tentacled dribbly fanged mess it doesn't mean it doesn't have feelings".
Meanwhile, I'll be pulling those tentacles off and saving up those Giant Rat tails :)
This is an interesting thought exercise, but I don't know if it's really feasible.
While I've never done something of the kind, I know there were people who did "no-kill" runs of Skyrim (and probably other games). They simply turned down any quest that relied on killing something as a mandatory goal, for everything else they just went about it, sneaking past, disabling or just simply running away from enemies. This works for a single player game with the sheer amount of quests that Skyrim had, but still you wouldn't actually be able to do the main story quest and reveal your full Dragonborn potential. Alternatively, some people had traps or NPCs kill some of the enemies for them (whick feels to me like cheating, since if you're a pacifist the fact that others dealt the blow should be irrelevant) or just made low-kill playthroughs only killing when absolutely required.
In a multiplayer game, though, it becomes more complicated. In order for progression and content diversity to exist, combat is kind of a must. Maybe you can have a tonne of non-combat activities to do, but at the end of the day, challenging group raids are the way most of these games "test" players to hand out the most exclusive rewards. In addition, if it were easy to level up without any combat at all, you might create a tricky dynamic where many people might choose to avoid combat. Again, this would be fine for a single player game, but in an MMO - and a fantasy MMO at that - the player dynamics are important to keep players coming back to the game and creating communities.
In short, I don't think what you say is impossible. EVE Online does it, to some extent. But it needs to be baked in from the very start, and may or may not work depending on the actual game.
This reminds me of discussion that was had by GMs on tabletop RPGs: I will boil that lengthy debate down to this: should a character receive advancement based upon any event providing development (either defeating an enemy or successfully doign something or even failing to do something).
For example in RPG world: Maybe your group uses their deplomacy/intimidation/crafty/sneak/etc to negotiate the rescue of hostiges without having to kill one guard. If you give them zero experience because nothing died, they are not inclined to use those other skills, but rather just run in hacking and slashing. One GM went so far as to say that nothing rewards experience but his own judgement when he felt players have "progressed" to a level. He argued that his players would be interested in using all their skills because they were conditioned to know that it took a command of all skills to represent gaining a level.
I mentioned this because in some ways you are touching on the same kind of logic: in a world of RPG (be it MMO or other) a level, traditionally speaking, represents how a character has advanced in skill and experiences to become a better version. The primary thrust of RPG is killing, and the massive amounts of math ushered in a digital version. The thrill of the kill sells games, and has become the focus. I don't think that there's necessary a "wrong" way to gain experience. If a person takes 1 hour to do a quest to gain 20% of a level or a person takes 1 hour to advance a tradeskill quest, im ok with that person gaining 20% expereince too. Obviously, the tricky part comes into balance.
"Wait!" you say. It's not fair that I went out hunting mobs down and killing them, while another person advanced a tradeskill and made items...quid pro quo: you went out and earned items to sell or wear; you advanced combat skills. The bigger issue would be fairness of risk to reward or time to experience. It ultimately comes down to the "play-style" VR wants to promote, and from what we have seen by the Perception System, I say they are onto some creative ways to revive some classic elements from not just MMO but RPG.
Thanks for your thoughts, Ren.
The problem is the only way to change things is to make things more realistic. Most fighters learn all of their experience in the gym. Training. Fights are done after they hit that level of "ready to fight". So unless you want to put up a bunch of training dummies for people to beat on end for hours and hours and hours and hours to gain "combat experience" to level up to "boss fight" then yeah.
This is also a level based game, not a skill based game, so you can't do what you can in Eve where you can advance in many directions and be successful.
Now, for the LARGE problem that was an issue in games like WoW. Gaining levels outside of killing should never, ever be allowed in a game like this. Last thing we need are lvl 50+ players joining groups for content for the FIRST TIME and not knowing how to play their class.
Believe me when I say, I would like to see non-combat advancement, but not at the cost of a community who can't play their class in a group based game.
There are many ways to reward non-killing activites with experience points (or equivilant) that help get you to maximum level as an adventurer. We are probably almost all familiar with the concept of exploration granting experience points. Finding things that aren't very obvious, perhaps things you can't find without perception, can give a lot more xp than killing an orc. Using skills can grant experience - 10 xp for killing an orc but also 10 xp if you successfully sneak past it (after which you can go back and kill its smelly arse for the other 10). Learning a new recipe. Using the recipe for the first time. Making something. Harvesting something.
You don't want a day of harvesting dandelions to get someone half way to maximum level but that doesn't mean it can't contribute something.
Risk versus reward definitely has some logic to it ((nods)).
But so does time spent versus reward. And if rewards for ancillary (to the mass murderers among us) activities are relatively small they make harvesting, crafting and exploring huge time sinks on the path to higher level. It has often been said, not without reason, that the life blood of a MMO is the time sinks.
Runescapes leveling system facilitated most of these points. Your overall level is based on how many levels youve gained overall but each action or archetype skillset had its own leveling system. ESO touchs on this slightly which makes it enjoyable until you realize how easy the mobs are.
NEXTLEVL said:The main problem with this is simple: Risk vs Reward. Why should someone who isn't actively dancing with death, and the penalty associated with it, be rewarded the same as someone who is?
In many of these discussions the risk on the non-combat side of things focuses on a time or financial debt. It may be possible to introduce a death risk in a craft or skill. For example requiring an alchemist to taste an ingredient before being able to use it or taste a potion before knowing what the potion can do. Some of those ingredients or potions could be deadly. Maybe a need to build up poison resistance (with the risk of death) to craft poisons of increasing effectiveness. Need ore, go deep mine it with the risk of tunnel collapse and death (just like old school, real world miners). The death could carry the same penalties as a combat death. It would not equalize things but possibly introduce more risk into the non-combat side of things.
Maybe non-combat advancement is taken for granted by players because they start out as top athlete master ninja massmurderers?
Remember wizardry gold? it had minor skills like climb and swimming,speechcraft to level.
Thinking about non-combat advancement is good
Also think about what experience has meant up till now-you kill,you gain exp .while it could be like how Fwick suggested -each action or archetype skillset could have its own leveling system-
It makes more sense,a car repairer's experience would mean little if you apply for a chef position.Therefore each field deserves its own leveling system
(then we'd be back at the only logical progression system there is that I've suggested in several topics;the mastery system lol.Think about it,what does it tell you when a player tells you their provisioning is at 432 ,and what does it tell you when they are novice,expert or master.The masteries are an indicator with meaning,the random numbers are not)
Also think about this bit that is menitioned in the Pantheon Difference section
What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them
- not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot.
Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system,
Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
It would make most sense if each archetype had their own skillset and their own leveling system for each of those skills. A different way of looking at experience
Great thinking Sparks.Also for crafting we should embrace failure chance as an option.Having these paths destined to win set out for us in these MMOs ,unfortunately may play another role in why these type of games fail
Also if these game were more focused on exploration and puzzle solving for progression.Puzzle solving might be another type of non-combat advancement,tied in with the perception system
NEXTLEVL said:The main problem with this is simple: Risk vs Reward. Why should someone who isn't actively dancing with death, and the penalty associated with it, be rewarded the same as someone who is?