I will usually keep peoples cosmetic toggled off so I only see what the person is really wearing. Tho I do remember the aweful colors people use to die there gear in EverQuest. I do however understand the need for cosmetic gear because of how some pieces just don't look right, clipping or coloring when worn with other pieces.
jpedrote said:Bazgrim said:I'd like a link for that because I'm not entirely sure that's true. Yes, you will have to acquire cosmetic items in-game (there won't be a cash shop), but as far as I know, they haven't confirmed whether or not there will be dedicated cosmetic items or how one will go about applying those appearances.
And yes, each player gets to choose how they view other players. Don't like cosmetic gear because it ruins your immersion and/or you want to know what other people are wearing? Then toggle it off. Do like cosmetic gear? Toggle it on. It's pretty simple and a good solution, but apparently there's still no pleasing everyone.
This has been beaten to death here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2126/appearance-gear-and-weapons
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5400/question-about-the-new-faq/view/page/3
First post from Brad on the 3rd page.
When i said "To my understanding, VR will not create any extra quipement just for cosmetic stuff" i wasn't thinking about rep rewards and similar stuff so I don't know if there is plans for gear with no stats thats only used for it's looks. So I might be wrong here, but ye i was just assuming from what Brad said.
I see, thanks. I didn't interpret it that way. I could imagine there being some rare items with awesome appearances that have no stats and are solely for the purposes of cosmetics. Not sure if that'll be the case. Not even sure if that's the best way of doing it. But it's certainly a possibility.
Dullahan said:Lol, it's this thread again. If people really want others to see their hard earned cosmetic gear, they can always put it into their actual gear slots. Personally, I think we should only have one set of gear slots, but if they insist on cosmetics, I will insist on toggling them off so I see what people are actually wearing.
Should make a guild called Cosmetics Disabled just to drive the point further.
Dullahan said:Lol, it's this thread again. If people really want others to see their hard earned cosmetic gear, they can always put it into their actual gear slots. Personally, I think we should only have one set of gear slots, but if they insist on cosmetics, I will insist on toggling them off so I see what people are actually wearing.
I'm right there with you, and agree the best way to handle this is to provide a toggle to disable cosmetic gear, allowing your client to view everyones actual gear instead. For me, this toggle will be on permanently, so bring on the jack-o-lantern heads, candy cane swords, and pokemon costumes. I'll never have to see them.
Bazgrim said:I could imagine there being some rare items with awesome appearances that have no stats and are solely for the purposes of cosmetics. Not sure if that'll be the case. Not even sure if that's the best way of doing it. But it's certainly a possibility.
Jewelry
Description: Jewelry. It's valuable, and material girls love to die for it
<3 all for cosmetics with or without purpose.Preferably not with a toggle but part of the game lore.We might as well have a toggle for genitals. Play the way you want ?
Point being,why all the trouble for things that contribute so little to the quality of the game.
They have fragments of world with different civilizations to use to keep pouring in cosmetic options.
Mod Edit: Remove image, please keep images out of your threads unless asked by a dev to compare something.
I am on board with the idea of cosmetic vs battle gears.
Only thing I would prefer not to see is what happened in a lot of other MMO's in the past... the mounts and fashion and armor cater more to the game company making money than the realism/immersion of the environment and player base. I remember one introducing motorcycles with a super annoying VROOOM VROOOM sound that annoying players would use to grief other players. As long as the armor and fashion and mounts match the genre, all good, but would be so unhappy to see things that do not mesh with the game.
As a roleplayer, I feel it necessary to point out that there's a difference between cosmetic gear, appearance gear, and costumes, and I think some people are confusing the two.
Costumes are usually like a pre-built all encompassing suit. Guild Wars 2 sold a lot of cosmetic gear in their cash shop in costume format. You put on a single piece, or click an item, and POOF! Now you totally look like a pirate.
Cosmetic gear, aka appearance gear, aka transmogs, just let you change the model/skin of an individual piece with the model/skin of another piece you already own. This is particularly useful if you're trying to maintain a coherant look. Say, for example, you have a nice set of full platemail armor on your tank. You look like an iconic knight from fairy tales. Now, you just got a new breastplate to drop, but this new breastplate isn't of the full-plate style of your old one, and is a battle-bikini top! So now, you have on full-plate greaves, gauntlets... and bare arms and chest? Well, sir, now you just look kind of silly. A quick appearance change on the new breastplate, to get the appearance of your old breastplate, restores you to a knightly look, once more. Yay! The peasants rejoyce!
What is the problem with this? No one is harmed. No one's gameplay is affected, because a plate breastplate is a plate breastplate. If my new upgrade was in fact a visual downgrade, I'd opt to not use the stat upgrade, because I don't want my character looking silly or mismatched.
Now, one should not be able to give a plate breastplate the appearance of a robe. Blizzard's restrictions in Warcraft are a fair middle ground. Plate to plate, leather to leather, cloth to cloth. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to change one breastplate into the appearance of another breastplate, so long as you earned both items to begin with.
Fashionistas aside, roleplayers definitely need to be able to change their appearances. One does not lounge on a beach while wearing a robe or knightly battlesuit. One cannot roleplaying being a gardener, when their only appearance option is full combat gear. For roleplayers especially, Warriors need to be able to equip robes, for example, even if it gave him/her no stats. Similarly, mages should have armored appearance options, even if it provided no stat benefit, because the look may be desirable for storyteling purposes.
Pantheon will have many players, with many preferences and mane conceptions of what a great game should be. There's no logical reason to have to choose one playstyle over another when middle-grounds can be reached through features such as toggles. Embrace your fellow gamer, rather than trying to beat their side into the ground to advance your own. We're all on the same team, and VR, like any company, enjoys having all of our money equally. :)
Jeron said:As a roleplayer, I feel it necessary to point out that there's a difference between cosmetic gear, appearance gear, and costumes, and I think some people are confusing the two.
Costumes are usually like a pre-built all encompassing suit. Guild Wars 2 sold a lot of cosmetic gear in their cash shop in costume format. You put on a single piece, or click an item, and POOF! Now you totally look like a pirate.
Cosmetic gear, aka appearance gear, aka transmogs, just let you change the model/skin of an individual piece with the model/skin of another piece you already own. This is particularly useful if you're trying to maintain a coherant look. Say, for example, you have a nice set of full platemail armor on your tank. You look like an iconic knight from fairy tales. Now, you just got a new breastplate to drop, but this new breastplate isn't of the full-plate style of your old one, and is a battle-bikini top! So now, you have on full-plate greaves, gauntlets... and bare arms and chest? Well, sir, now you just look kind of silly. A quick appearance change on the new breastplate, to get the appearance of your old breastplate, restores you to a knightly look, once more. Yay! The peasants rejoyce!
What is the problem with this? No one is harmed. No one's gameplay is affected, because a plate breastplate is a plate breastplate. If my new upgrade was in fact a visual downgrade, I'd opt to not use the stat upgrade, because I don't want my character looking silly or mismatched.
Now, one should not be able to give a plate breastplate the appearance of a robe. Blizzard's restrictions in Warcraft are a fair middle ground. Plate to plate, leather to leather, cloth to cloth. But there's no reason you shouldn't be able to change one breastplate into the appearance of another breastplate, so long as you earned both items to begin with.
Fashionistas aside, roleplayers definitely need to be able to change their appearances. One does not lounge on a beach while wearing a robe or knightly battlesuit. One cannot roleplaying being a gardener, when their only appearance option is full combat gear. For roleplayers especially, Warriors need to be able to equip robes, for example, even if it gave him/her no stats. Similarly, mages should have armored appearance options, even if it provided no stat benefit, because the look may be desirable for storyteling purposes.
Pantheon will have many players, with many preferences and mane conceptions of what a great game should be. There's no logical reason to have to choose one playstyle over another when middle-grounds can be reached through features such as toggles. Embrace your fellow gamer, rather than trying to beat their side into the ground to advance your own. We're all on the same team, and VR, like any company, enjoys having all of our money equally. :)
Great post Jeron. I wish I saw more from you! I am in favor of having appearance gear as long as it has been earned in the game. VR has already stated that they won't have a cash shop where people can purchase fancy looking armor, which is great. I think warriors wearing robes and casters wearing plate is a bit farfetched, but I'm not entirely against the idea. When I played EQOA, robes that could be worn by all classes were some of the most sought after items in the game. If they do something like that, I would want those pieces to be really rare. I wouldn't want every tank to be able to look like a caster or vice versa. Having it as an option is great but if someone really cares about getting that look for their character, they should be prepared to do whatever it takes to earn it. I think having ultra rare gear that is used for nothing more than an exotic appearance is a wonderful idea and would provide a fun and flavorful dynamic to the game.
Jeron said:Pantheon will have many players, with many preferences and mane conceptions of what a great game should be. There's no logical reason to have to choose one playstyle over another when middle-grounds can be reached through features such as toggles. Embrace your fellow gamer, rather than trying to beat their side into the ground to advance your own. We're all on the same team, and VR, like any company, enjoys having all of our money equally. :)
I'm all for options
but I think this even isn't about playstyle at all: This toggle is bad for community bonding
Don't get me wrong,I'm all for options.I welcome freedom of choice;the cosmetic options for players to achieve a *coherent* look,why not an ingame style/cosmetic library to help with that instead?
Toggles for appearance would do the opposite of embracing fellow gamers;it shows players do not tolerate player (individuality).
Being able to distinguish and express yourself is key for social bonding I believe.
The whole problem with transmogs (modern ffiv, anyone?) is the refusal to accept you're wearing what you're wearing, in my opinion (of course). If you're a plated knight that puts on a battlekini, you are wearing that piece of armor. The whole idea is - wear what you're actually wearing. If you can't stand the look of it, change it, wear something else - it may sound harsh, but isn't that close to the essence of the kind of common-sense realism we want in-game? I'll have the cosmetic toggle off, but it doesn't solve the issue completely. It actually subtly divides players into those who see the character as the player intends and those who dont. The player who doesn't see another as they intend can't totally "get on board" with the one they've met, as they don't really see them. This is a small community issue. Second turning off vanity pet option too, btw. Not to get too negative about Pantheon. I think I speak for everyone by saying we love this game, and are just speaking frankly out of real interest and friendly, approving slaps on the back. Hah
I must apologize for using the phrase "common sense" in that context - it sounds conservative crappy (ntt anything wrong w conservatives)
Mod Edit: Included message from double post.
Zorkon said:I too will be toggling the cosmetics off. I would be courious once the game goes live the percentage of people that actually have them turned on.
I'll bet 10 copper the percentage would be under 10%.
I'll have it on because it's fun.
Plus, there's no such thing as immersion when a cat keeps sticking its butt in your face while you play.
Iksar said:AgentGenX said:There's actually going to be vanity pets in Pantheon? UGH.
Unfortunately. It's right there in the backer rewards "Keepsake Vanity Pet."
I think the cosmetic pets we're getting as a reward for pledging are going to be more 'the exception' than 'the rule.' In general, Brad has stated that he wants the things he puts in game to have a purpose:
Aradune said:But we do want them to matter and be helpful if you choose to use them. We don't want them to just be cosmetic. Exactly how we balance that will rely on alpha and beta testing.
I never cared much for how recent games have handled "cosmetic" gear. However, if it is implemented like those games where your appearance can be completely changed, I will be glad to have a toggle so that people can enjoy the game to their own preference.
It may be far too late, but this is how I would prefer cosmetic gear to work:
- You have a separate tab for "no stat" cosmetic gear that looks somewhat like your "real" gear tab.
- There is no toggle option for cosmetic items.
- Cosmetic items do not change or override the appearance of your battle (real) gear.
- Cosmetic items, instead, enhance your character's appearance by adding to your character's appearance.
- Items would include things like: Cloaks, Sashes, Tabards, Surcoats, Baldrics, Scarves (caster only?) etc...
- The above would be available in a variety of colors, patterns, and styles. The rarer and more difficult to acquire, the more elegant the pattern / style and the richer the color.
- Cosmetic items should be rare / difficult to acquire.
I do understand that this goes against the concept of allowing people to entirely customize their appearance, which may be the driving force behind the cosmetic system in the first place? Anyhoo, while I'm not sure of VR's plans for implementing this sort of system, I haven't been a fan of it in any of the other games I've played and would likely keep cosmetic items toggled off.
Not looking to start an argument here. If you don't agree with me, that's perfectly fine. Just wanted to chime in with my opinion!
Hopefully to much developer time isn't spent on something that is optional and won't be used by a large percentage of the community. This seems very niche. At this point in development I'd hope we are being as efficient as possible as far as getting the game out the door.
Cosmetics seem like something that is more reasonable to consider post launch.
I don't understand how cosmetic gear (and possibly meaning RMT cosmetic gear) works in a game where you are supposed to be able to look at someone and say "Wow, that's cool I want one". Does that mean get out my credit card or does that mean gather a group of friends and go dungeon crawling.
What kind of game do we want this to be?
I fuss over the look of my characters maybe a little too much, so I appreciate having cosmetic options, and I'd much prefer to be seen as I want to be seen or I'd probably end up as a previous poster said, avoiding upgrades for appearance sake
A lot of this has depends on how well VR does at making their various armor pieces look attractive, though... I've played enough games where better armor means bigger and bigger shoulder ornaments and more tacked on looking garbage
I prefer my mages to wear a very simple robe with a hood, not some ornate spider queen ball gown
There is a thread in the Cleric forum discussing cloth only vs cloth with plate, which are both viable options
Is it possible that a lot of this discussion could be diffused if there were a commitment from VR to never include stupid cosmetics like horseheads, bikinis and pokemon outfits?
Kilsin said: one side of our community (who like cosmetics) when the other side (who dislike cosmetics) is just as large in numbers,
I didn't realize that was the case.
My question is then, how many of those people will still be concerned with their looks cosmetically if they realize that at least half of players have their cosmetic view toggled off? It seems like that might discourage people from spending much time on cosmetics because people can't see it anyway.
I wonder if both sides of the community (those who like/dislike cosmetics) will be as large with a toggle in place? It seems logical that some people will focus less on cosmetics with a toggle than they would if everyone could see their cosmetic changes.
I think a cosmetic toggle entirely defeats the purpose of having cosmetic gear in the first place. Why should you decide what I look like? That totally negates an investment which I've made in my character. If you want to set guild rules which preclude your members from using cosmetic gear, that's your prerogative, but you shouldn't be able to decide that for me. If you really need to know what my actual gear looks like or see stats, inspect me.
If I want to have a backstory for my character where he's a simple but poor magician, then I should be able to attire him in a plain brown tunic or robe. I hope there are some low-end cosmetic options which actually look more like something a commoner might wear. Not everyone is into the shiny stuff.
It's up to the devs to only put gear in the game which is consistent with the lore.
If there are unique armour sets which have significant prestige, there shouldn't be any other item with the same appearance - cosmetic or otherwise. I fully agree that you shouldn't be able to "fake" that you've earned the high-end items.
That shouldn't preclude me from dressing in simple garb if I'm in town or suitable crafting attire if I'm at the forge or selling my crafted armour.
If there is enough fuss about cosmetic armour such that you're going to make role players manually swap their cosmetic gear into normal slots, then at least provide equipment sets so that the change from "what I wear to adventure" to "what I wear in town" is relatively painless.
Celandor said:I think a cosmetic toggle entirely defeats the purpose of having cosmetic gear in the first place. That totally negates an investment which I've made in my character.
This was my concern about the toggle system. If people who are normally into cosmetic alterations would feel like it is less usefull once they realized that many players have their changes toggled off anyway. I didn't know if it was only for personal benefit or if it mattered if other people could view their changes?
This confirms my suspicion. Maybe the toggle mechanism isn't a good solution? Could a toggle end up being viewed poorly by those who are in favor of cosmetic changes?
I always felt that the toggle should be used to determine whether or not you want your character to show off the appearance that you have worked for. I think it's kind of immersion breaking if you use the toggle the other way around ... "Everybody run to the big ogre wearing red plate!" -- "But I don't see an ogre wearing red plate." If a player is dead-set against the idea of having an appearance slot for their armor, they can choose to not use it and conform to the archaic method of manually swapping their gear around to achieve a certain look. The main purpose of utilizing an appearance slot is to allow players to express the "look" that they have earned without sacrificing efficiency. (You can wear the red plate armor even though the rainbow puke patchwork gear is more efficient for whatever you're fighting.) The current plan for toggle implementation seems like it would lead to players setting an expectation on whether or not others use it. (Raid Rule #7, you MUST have appearance gear toggled ON)
I think it's a bit disingenious to argue that "very few people use cosmetics" because the evidence from every other major, active MMO on the market right now flies in the face of that. People want their characters to look good. Gamers are not all 40-something men who have been playing MMOs since the stone age, keep a spreadsheet of gear choices on their second monitor, and live for the chance at raid loot drops. If I were to use the same logic, I could say that everyone who is opposed to cosmetic options are the same people who think that the value of a player is determined solely by their gear score. See what assumptions do?
I want pantheon to be a success because of the unique , in-depth gameplay and world experience it provides. I feel, quite strongly, that the experience we're all looking for will appeal not just to old-school EQ players, but to newer players who've never known anything before WoW-TBC. I also feel, quite strongly, that if it's done right, that experience will appeal to players whether they're 20 or 60 years old, whether they're male or female, whether they're "hardcores" or "casuals", and whether they're roleplayers, or crafters, or raiders, or anything in between.
It only works however if those players can become invested in the game, so that they have time to get hooked.. Allowing people to customize and maintain a look that they like for their character is a core part of what allows people to get interested and hooked in games to begin with - especially with SO MANY options out there that are all about fluff and appearance. It's part of what allows them to discover the rich gameplay experience that we are all hoping that Pantheon brings back to MMOs.
I understand that people want gear choice to matter. I want gear choice to matter too. But people identify with what they see on their screen. If what they see on their screen is required to be an ugly mishmash of rust- and dirt-colored things, in order for them to be effective at the game, a lot of people simply won't give it a chance at all. The way you make gear choice matter is by giving people lots of options, and a system that requires them to make tradeoffs in stats to tailor their effectiveness. Do I take the breastplate with more AC or the one with more stat bonuses? Do I use the hat with more intelligence on it, or the one with more wisdom?
From where I stand, given the highly polarized views on this subject (seriously, you'd think we were arguing politics or religion) a toggle makes the most sense. Give everyone the option to change the appearance that they see on their screen. Allow them to choose whether they want to see other people's appearances or not. So, I support an appearance tab, and the ability to toggle whether you see other player's customized appearances or actual equipment, if that's technically possible to do. I can tell you right now, my toggle will be turned on, because if someone has gone to the trouble to try to achieve a certain look, it's a safe bet that look is probably one I'd prefer as well.
Let's be focused and specific here though. I see a lot of arguments against cosmetic gear because people can't get their heads out of other games that did gear poorly, all-up.
So, yes to an appearance tab (and sure, let's have a toggle so you don't have to see my snazzy clothes if you don't want to).
Yes to reasonable restrictions on what you can make things look like. My plate breastplate shouldn't look like a t-shirt.
Yes to only acquiring cosmetic options through gameplay, no cash shops or anything along those lines. However, I include "buying it from a crafter" as gameplay.
Yes to having multiple, viable choices for equipment to use at any given level, and not being forced to wear that ugly thing just because it's the only one that's appropriate stat-wise.
My opinion.