I'm a long time EQ player that started just after Kunark was released. In recent years I have tried each new MMORG and have always been disapointed. I've been talking to a few freinds for 3-4 years now that a return to a challenging game is what the MMORG industry needs. I even think that original EQ1 redone with new graphics could be great.
Why even have levels when you go through them in just a few days to get to end game - really disipointing and it ruins the comunity.
Really excited for Pantheon and the return to a challenging game thats not just about reaching end game.
With that being said, I'm not sure I have the time or want to go all the way back to hard core EQ1 - although I am sure many are.
Is it worth consider servers with slightly different difficulties? Seams like a few minor adjustments might give players the option to play on a hard core or casual server.
- I like the idea of rare spawns and rare mobs, but for the casual player I would like to see them a little more atainable.
- Leveling should take a long time, I see no problem in it taking a year or more to reach level 50. But for the casual player reaching max level in a year is much different than a hard core player thats in game 10+ hrs a day. If I'm playing 10-15 hours a week I still want to reach level 50 in 12-14 months. In EQ1 reaching level 60 was almost impossible for the casual player.
- While I see potential problems with mercs. I also believe that if done right they could offer the casual gamer more opertunities. However mercs should have significant penalties and groups should always be more desirable - and it should'nt even be close.
From the FAQ:
"We are definitely fans of alternate ruleset servers, be they PvP, role-playing focused, hard-core focused, etc. That said, our ability to offer alternate ruleset servers will depend, at least at launch, on how many servers we need and can support in total."
Also...
Will Pantheon require me to play for hours and hours to advance my character?
"No. While the world of Terminus will consist of vast landscapes and epic dungeons, there is no reason to require players to play long, contiguous gaming sessions. Players will be able to play a couple of hours, logout, and return later to continue their journey. There will also be mechanics and features to both help people get together and group and also to make lasting friendships. To further facilitate this there will also be ways for players to keep their group together even if some members of the group can play longer than others or at different times."
This is not hardcore old school EQ. There is no need for an "easy mode" server. That would probably get shot down almost immediately, because even on the regular servers, no matter how much you play, you'll still be able to advance. You may not advance as quickly as others, but that's okay. You can still advance.
Other threads you might find helpful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1935/server-rulesets/view/page/1
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1922/idea-suggestion-realism-immersion-server
Just as added clarification - casual might not be the right term, certianly to most it would still be very difficult - I don't think it would require a seperate ruleset or time balancing the game. The game and expansions would still focus on a hardcore game. However some combination of bonus exp, and/or increased drops, and/or mercs would take little effort to implement, but could offer big dividends to the casual player. The balance of the game could and should remain difficult. I have no desire for another poorly done WOW clone.
Casual is relative but I would define casual as the player that plays 10-20 hrs per week and still wants to reach level 50 with resonable gear in 8-12 months of game play.
The player base would need to support the sever differences - but in my thinking there could be a large player base that might want somthing just a bit more casual. And utimatley a player base of 500,000 is better for us all long term than a player base of 200,000. Just need to be carful how its done - its better to start slow than go to far to quickly.
Offcourse this topic may be better dealt with in the months after the game is released.
Toldar said:Just as added clarification - casual might not be the right term, certianly to most it would still be very difficult - I don't think it would require a seperate ruleset or time balancing the game. The game and expansions would still focus on a hardcore game. However some combination of bonus exp, and/or increased drops, and/or mercs would take little effort to implement, but could offer big dividends to the casual player. The balance of the game could and should remain difficult. I have no desire for another poorly done WOW clone.
Casual is relative but I would define casual as the player that plays 10-20 hrs per week and still wants to reach level 50 with resonable gear in 8-12 months of game play.
The player base would need to support the sever differences - but in my thinking there could be a large player base that might want somthing just a bit more casual. And utimatley a player base of 500,000 is better for us all long term than a player base of 200,000. Just need to be carful how its done - its better to start slow than go to far to quickly.
Offcourse this topic may be better dealt with in the months after the game is released.
VR has said from day one that they are not creating a game for everyone. There are of course a lot of people that may not enjoy the more hardcore nature of Pantheon. And that's totally okay. There are a lot of games out there other than WoW that those types of people can play. I'm sure even Brad would be the first to admit that. As NEXTLVL said, VR is not going to cater to every preference. Even if it would be financially profitable for them to do so, they are targeting a very specific demographic and must stick to those values. It's not just about appealing to the most amount of people.
The bottom line is that even with the way things are now, you can still progress. But you don't get to choose how long it takes for you to reach max level. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm not addressing you personally. I'm just explaining why giving players an option to play the game on easy mode would completely undermine everything VR has set out to accomplish.
And as a side note, it's very presumptuous to say that implementing those things would take "little effort to implement" and wouldn't require balancing. I won't go into all the issues that would create because VR has already made it very clear several times that they don't have any interest in making the game suitable or convenient for all types of gamers.
jpedrote said:I just hope VR doesn't go overboard and creates loads of different rule set severs for everything people disagree with. For me PVP, RP, PVE should be the only rule sets.
They won't. Here is a quote from https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1935/server-rulesets
Kilsin said:My only concern is separating and dividing the community. We cannot please everyone 100% of the time, we know that and we will not be trying too, but by splitting into so many servers, it would essentially tear apart the fundamental core of this game and what we are trying to build on, the community, which this type of game relies heavily on to survive just like it did with EQ and VG.
I would imagine that we will have PvE, RP and PvP servers (maybe an Immersion server if there is enough interest later on), the amount of those servers will depend on the population obviously, but I cannot personally imagine there being many more. If there is demand for a different ruleset server then that will be something we would look into without a doubt but there would need to be significant interest to put a new ruleset server online and maintain it long term with a healthy population and experience for our community.
We have to remember that we are not chasing after the large numbers that WoW, ArcheAge and ESO attract, we are targetting a much smaller niche audience that will need to rely on each other and community spirit to succeed. We can have mature conversations and disagree about what we like and dislike but we will not be able to put a server up for every disagreement just so a few can round around by themselves with one extra or one less feature/mechanic, we need to be realistic and work together to overcome these small differences.
Not trying to be a party pooper by any means, I just want to manage expectations and give you guys a realistic view on this subject.
Personally, the less servers they have, the more people will be playing. Sure in the beginning it will be a massive cluster F*** but as people start getting levels and some seperate from others it will eventually stabilize and get better. Having people spread out across 100 different servers will make the game seem like it's dead, even tho across 100 servers each server has 10k people on it, but those 10k people are going to be so spread out, it will make it seem like it's dead. So as little servers as possible is always better.
I loved the ESO mega server, but hated it at the same time. There were points where it was just way too populated, but then again, who cared about the population when everything was soloable. I don't mind population, and fighting for kills, it brings the fun into the game, as long as i got a certain amount that is guaranteed mine, then me and the other group are sharing part of another camp, then it's first come first serve you know. I rather enjoyed that about EQ, except when there was a level 50 camp and some level 70 decided to come through and just destroy everything. That was annoying.
Then you had EQ2, had quite a bit of open world stuff, that a higher level could easily come in and take down, but got absolutely nothing out of it, not even loot. That was a good system.
Anyways, sorry i went off track a little. I don't think it's fair tho, for people who want the challenge to get reduced because of people who don't want the challenge. Seems unfair to me, means you can get the same stuff i have and didn't have to work as hard to get it.
Bazgrim said:No problem! Hopefully it alleviates some of your concerns.
Yup it did, it seems that every time VR replies in the forums or reveals new info they always it the mark. Haven't been disappointed yet :)
Only thing I think we will see are a PvP server, a RP server and then enough regular servers based on the forecast of population at launch. I am sure they will have back-up servers on the ready but will launch with very populated servers.
I would rather see a lively community and fight over stuff rather than see an empty vast amount of space like a solo PC game.
Bazgrim said:Toldar said:Just as added clarification - casual might not be the right term, certianly to most it would still be very difficult - I don't think it would require a seperate ruleset or time balancing the game. The game and expansions would still focus on a hardcore game. However some combination of bonus exp, and/or increased drops, and/or mercs would take little effort to implement, but could offer big dividends to the casual player. The balance of the game could and should remain difficult. I have no desire for another poorly done WOW clone.
Casual is relative but I would define casual as the player that plays 10-20 hrs per week and still wants to reach level 50 with resonable gear in 8-12 months of game play.
The player base would need to support the sever differences - but in my thinking there could be a large player base that might want somthing just a bit more casual. And utimatley a player base of 500,000 is better for us all long term than a player base of 200,000. Just need to be carful how its done - its better to start slow than go to far to quickly.
Offcourse this topic may be better dealt with in the months after the game is released.
VR has said from day one that they are not creating a game for everyone. There are of course a lot of people that may not enjoy the more hardcore nature of Pantheon. And that's totally okay. There are a lot of games out there other than WoW that those types of people can play. I'm sure even Brad would be the first to admit that. As NEXTLVL said, VR is not going to cater to every preference. Even if it would be financially profitable for them to do so, they are targeting a very specific demographic and must stick to those values. It's not just about appealing to the most amount of people.
The bottom line is that even with the way things are now, you can still progress. But you don't get to choose how long it takes for you to reach max level. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm not addressing you personally. I'm just explaining why giving players an option to play the game on easy mode would completely undermine everything VR has set out to accomplish.
And as a side note, it's very presumptuous to say that implementing those things would take "little effort to implement" and wouldn't require balancing. I won't go into all the issues that would create because VR has already made it very clear several times that they don't have any interest in making the game suitable or convenient for all types of gamers.
Well said! Very well said, and I would like to shake your hand across the vastness which is called "The Internets!"
Bazgrim said:jpedrote said:I just hope VR doesn't go overboard and creates loads of different rule set severs for everything people disagree with. For me PVP, RP, PVE should be the only rule sets.
They won't. Here is a quote from https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1935/server-rulesets
Kilsin said:My only concern is separating and dividing the community. We cannot please everyone 100% of the time, we know that and we will not be trying too, but by splitting into so many servers, it would essentially tear apart the fundamental core of this game and what we are trying to build on, the community, which this type of game relies heavily on to survive just like it did with EQ and VG.
I would imagine that we will have PvE, RP and PvP servers (maybe an Immersion server if there is enough interest later on), the amount of those servers will depend on the population obviously, but I cannot personally imagine there being many more. If there is demand for a different ruleset server then that will be something we would look into without a doubt but there would need to be significant interest to put a new ruleset server online and maintain it long term with a healthy population and experience for our community.
We have to remember that we are not chasing after the large numbers that WoW, ArcheAge and ESO attract, we are targetting a much smaller niche audience that will need to rely on each other and community spirit to succeed. We can have mature conversations and disagree about what we like and dislike but we will not be able to put a server up for every disagreement just so a few can round around by themselves with one extra or one less feature/mechanic, we need to be realistic and work together to overcome these small differences.
Not trying to be a party pooper by any means, I just want to manage expectations and give you guys a realistic view on this subject.
Thanks Baz :)
Toldar said:With that being said, I'm not sure I have the time or want to go all the way back to hard core EQ1.
Dear Toldar, I do not mean to single you out but I will use this quote as an example on a statement several people have said on different topics. Corps run or not, AH or not etc.
If we - for the sake of my story - say that Pantheon will become exactly as hard as vanilla EQ1 on every subject (which they already said it will not) I just want to tell you not to worry!
When I played EQ1 I was no childe or teenager with, as some said, all the time in the world. I was a working, single parent of two small children with all the obligations that follows. I have no idea if I was what some would call casual or not. I played when I could. But still I managed to get two epics - ranger and war. I raided a lot of conten and getting to max level was never a worry. It would just happend when it did.
All I want to say is, vanilla EQ1 was tough, hard and took a lot of time, but it was not that tough or that hard or took that much time, that people like me had no chance.
Everyone had a chance and I belive that everyone in Pantheon will have a chance too.
-sorte.
For what it is worth, I see an attraction to a more casual server and a ...less casual server. Perhaps with a ban on transfers from the former. With all due respect to the social/grouping elements of this game (I am here after all) there is a continuum between "can solo to 100 in a day" and "need a good group to kill one gray mob" and some of us will want to solo significantly and some of us will almost always group and the dynamics are different.
That said we do not want to divert resources from absolutely critical things (making the game as good as it can be, especially the starter areas that new people will form first impressions in) to nice but far from essential things that can come an expansion or two down the road.
We do not want to unduly fragment the community but that is an entirely different story. The team has said, repeatedly, that they will shoot for a certain optimum population on servers and add servers as needed to avoid overcrowding. They have said that their servers will be in the cloud and can be added - or subtracted - quite easily. If the team decides using the judgment they have already said they will apply that "ideal" is to have one RP server, one pvp server, and four "normal" servers there is no reason in terms of "community" that the four normal servers all need the same ruleset.
Take an oversimplified example. The normal servers are all identical except that on one of them you get 120% more xp. Or you earn "loyalty" which you can spend for xp potions or vitality/bluebar reset. Or the drop rate for desirable gear is better by a little. And you can't transfer off. This server can't possibly be a large drain on team resources - how much coding does it take to add 20% more xp? But I acknowledge that the ban on transfers off, while essential, may have some community fragmentation ramifications.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1922/idea-suggestion-realism-immersion-server
Vr has stated they don't want to have many rulesets
But that doesnt stop them from wanting SOME rulesets. After all I imagine there will be more players than accounts for just 3 servers. Some leeway will be afforded so long as there's enough support for a ruleset. Don't give up because of the nay sayers!
In the one I posted Kilsin himself showed interest in an unusual ruleset=)
I, too, was wondering where this game fell on the harcore -- casual continuum. From the discussions I've read, I figured it wouldn't necessarily pick a side, but would let the more 'casual' players know that it would give no false pre-tenses about the amount of time one would need to invest to reach max level. Is this fair?
Then I saw this in the Payment Model area of the FAQ section and it seems to clear up pretty nicely all of this discussion we are having:
Pantheon isn't a casual game -- it's a hard-core challenging game.
So there we are, right? Are we to assume from this that the gamer that plays 2-4 hours a day; 3-4 days a week will not find a home in this game? Hopefully we can; in some form...
transistor said:I, too, was wondering where this game fell on the harcore -- casual continuum. From the discussions I've read, I figured it wouldn't necessarily pick a side, but would let the more 'casual' players know that it would give no false pre-tenses about the amount of time one would need to invest to reach max level. Is this fair?
Then I saw this in the Payment Model area of the FAQ section and it seems to clear up pretty nicely all of this discussion we are having:
Pantheon isn't a casual game -- it's a hard-core challenging game.
So there we are, right? Are we to assume from this that the gamer that plays 2-4 hours a day; 3-4 days a week will not find a home in this game? Hopefully we can; in some form...
This game is group-centric, with some solo and raiding available. The difficulty and time is up to you. As for specifics, we have to wait for alpha and beta testing for developers to apply player feedback. There are plenty of options to play shorter durations (soloing, crafting, simple quests, etc.). There will also be options for the more time-consuming, like dungeons. I suggest you search campfires if you are concerned with limited play-time availability. Again, the take-away is the options will be there, it's up to you what you choose.
I don't wanna see server with different levels of difficulty, it diminishes the effort of everyone else, and I don't see it fitting VR mentality.
I would however like some alternate rulesets servers, for the features players can't agree upon, like the auction house, and a restricted first person. Just don't create too many different ones, stick to the main differences that can't be compromised upon or don't do it at all, and make all servers are equal (with the exception of PVP/PVE/RP servers).