Hi Everyone!!
I want to hear what you all have to say about your previous experiences with this very specific mechanic and what you think.
Damage Over Time. This is perhaps my favorite mechanic and I personally think it has not been utilized to its full potential in my experience. My personal feeling is that Damage Over Time should be more powerful and last longer, but not necessarily be good for group use.
I'm drawing my experience from Vanguard and the Everquests. Take the Necro from Vanguard, she had very powerful DoT's to a point and then the damage really fell off and she along with the pet (Abomination, another amazing take on a pet) and she just could not keep up with the damage dealers of the group or raid. But... Isn't damage over time some of the larger killers in the real and fantasy world? What about bleeding out? What about getting downwind of a poisonous gas... you are screwed!! But, if you have ever experienced a bleeding, injured animal, they are at their absolute most dangerous and terrifying when they are mortally wounded. But that's the thing, they, eventually die and fate is sealed.
Putting this back into a fantasy perspective, does anyone agree that a DoT should have critical potential to be an absolute top tier damaging ability or spell, but unless it runs its full course, is not the best tool in the tool box? Take a Necromancer again. Historically in my experience, a soloist, a danger, and pretty useful in larger groups, but they struggled when the gaming experience shifted to rather quick NPC kills and multiple enemies. That's Absolutely fine in my opinion. But, why shouldn't they shine on the 5-10 minute battle? Why shouldn't a DoT be more powerful and efficient than a Direct Damage ability or spell but the kicker is, the darn thing has to live long enough to feel the nightmare that is impending doom?
Going along with what Poisons, Arterial Bleeds and Suffocations really mean to life in fantasy and reality, I think a lord of the dead should be able to shine when the group or raid really needs some melt. Balance is really self-implemented by how much HP certain easy and major NPC's have.
Love to hear thoughts!
I played an EQ necro for 6 years in a Raiding guild. As a guild we were unusual because we had one wizzie and 10-13 Necros. This made our approach to raid targets very different to most raid guilds. What my GL and RL LOVED about the Necro force was that as experienced Necros we could apply our damage consistantly and constantly and ensure we never ended up taking aggro. We knew if we didnt pay attention and dropped our DOT's too hard too fast and in the wrong order, any Necro could take aggro off even the most powerfull and well equipped of raid tanks. If I paid attention and balanced the layering of my DOT's, I could keep up a steady stream of damage pretty much forever.
The use of high damage, High aggro, short duration DOT spells vs lower damage, longer time, lower aggro DOT spells had to be balanced depending on encounter. You learned your DOT linelup and its capabilities or you died.
The thing I loved most about my Necro was the balanced application of DOT's, vs mana output vs self damage. The art of being a necro was balancing Regen (equipment/Spells) vs self damage DOT (Mana regen spell) and the out laying of damage to target(Aggro). Get all of that right and you could keep mana flowing, health to self and damage to target going forever, get it wrong and you died.
Necro's were usually middle to middle top of the Damage table on raids, but we were less damage and aggro spikey than some of the other classes and bought a lot of utility to encounters. I loved my Necro.
X
Okay, before I say anything I think I should preface it by admitting.. I never played a necro. Well, that's not entirely true, I played a bunch of necros, but never beyond about level 20. Mostly, I think that was because my first main in EQ was a druid, and after playing one class that was such a phenomenal solo'er I didn't want to play another, because while I might want to play with a group I'd always be tempted to go solo, because it would be faster. Anyway, the point here is, if I say something absolutely ridiculous, I apologize, and invite you to brush it off, whilst thinking to yourself, "Pfaw! He's not a necro!"
Anyway, my thought goes into the idea of classes having specialities. I've always thought of Necro's as the DoT masters, but I was sitting here thinking about it this morning while all messed up on a lack of sleep and too much caffeine, and I had this leftward shift of thinking. DoTs doing massive damage is great... but what if they did more?
Enchanters are the masters of Crowd Control, with some debuffing and buffing thrown in, as well as some dots (at least, in EQ).
Shaman are the masters of Melee Buffing, with some debuffing and dotting thrown in.
But really... no one is the master of debuffing. Sure, if you combine a shaman and an enchanter you can debuff the ever loving glory out of something... but...
What if necros had several lines of dots that weren't quite up to par in terms of damage, but, all included massive, growing, debuffs, and were the undisputed masters of debuffing?
I always thought that the Darkness line was one of the best groups of spells in the game. It had the amazing utility of providing a snare, while also providing moderate damage.
So what if you had a line of spells that did damage over time, while slowly siphoning the target's AC. Possibly just reducing it, possibly reducing it and transferring it to the caster, possibly reducing it and transferring it to the party.
AC, Str, HP, Mana, resists, agi, sta, you name it. As long as those reductions actually meant something to NPCs (you know, no point giving necro's a dot that chews their mana if they have unlimited mana). In the end you end up with 6-8 dots that do moderate (maybe low?) damage, but when stacked together do massive damage and completely, totally, debuff your target.
Two more thoughts... the first is disease. So, why aren't magical diseases contagious? I mean, sure, it might be a bad thing if you've got a chanter along mezzing things, and damage breaks mez, and diseases are contagious, but why not give necros a line of spells that are disease based and contagious. So you don't have a chanter along to mezz things, you have a bad pull, there are now five mobs, the necro casts this one disease and if the mobs move within a certain radius of one another there's a chance for them to have to resist the disease, or be hit by it as well. So it's NOT like an AE. It's proximity, and it's proximity to whoever it was cast on. I'd almost even say that the only agro the necro should get would be from the original target.
Lastly, I'm kind of a fan of huge epic battles. I like long protracted fights. One thing I was really good at in EQ was judging what my group was capable of handling, and pulling that, or sometimes keeping up a steady stream of incoming so that there was never (okay, really really rarely) a pause between fights. The continual pulls doesn't lead to where I was going, but the continual fighting does. I wouldn't mind seeing a fight that takes upwards of several minutes, a boss (raid or otherwise) where you can count on a fight lasting 10 minutes, with a single boss that you're attacking while fending off minions, or just while dealing with his massive attacks, or whatever. And you know what I'd love to see for something like that? I'd love to see necro dots that last a super long time. Maybe some that build slowly, maybe some that have a steady pace, whatever, that part doesn't matter. Have a dot that lasts 30 minutes and does the same damage from the first tick until the last, base the mana of of the usual life expectency of average mob at X level, maybe base it off of something slightly higher than average. Then watch the necro's eyes light up with glee the first time they get to use it on something where they know the fight is going to last more than 3 minutes.
Maybe I'm crazy, and the caffeine is deluding my senses, but these seem like really neat ideas to me.
I really enjoyed root and rot with my druid in Eq. As my levels grew I was able to take on more powerful mobs and mutli mobs at a time. Once I got to higher lvls I always duo with my Nerco friend and also had a Wizard bud we could AOE together. Now the druid was not the best AOE but we had some helpful spells.
I'm a huge fan of DoTs and share your opinion that they seem like something that should be great damage.
I played for a while on an EQ EMU server that had +DoT damage on it's gear that added a flat +damage per tick with each upgrade for that particular stat, and DoTs reigned supreme there. "Witches" (basically druids) were the among the best DPS in game with the right gear choices (FULL ON NOTHING BUT +DoT DAMAGE ABOVE ALL ELSE - lol). The gear progression during leveling up felt really well done in terms of how your power grew with each new level and upgrade, and +DoT damage was even on an item you could craft from drops in the one and only beginning newbie zone. I had an absolute blast there.
Anyway, I'm rooting for necros to be in game by release, and if not, I'm leaning heavily toward druid at this juncture (Perhaps some other class will be more DoT oriented?. I don't know.) I'll be weighing in on the respective class forums on the matter during testing I'm sure.
+1 for DoT advocacy.
In every MMO that allows it, I play a death caster, preferably centered around the EQ1 necromancer model of DoT stacks. My DoT stacking career began 2 years before EQ1 allowed actual DoT stacking (before Luclin, same DoT from two different casters did not stack), so this topic is near and dear to me.
DoT stacking should provide the highest caster DPS over any period of time longer than 1 minute. Period, the end. That's the point of the DoT stack...sustained DPS, so DoT casters should rule DPS meters on any long fight.
DoTs should stack. Period. If 4 necros are in the group, then 4 different applications of the same DoT will be stacked on that mob.
As far as DoT spell lines go, the bare necessities would be poison, disease, lifedrain, fire and cold. I am also a fan of hate/fear/darkness/plague based DoTs that reflect the diety choice. Like any other caster school, DoTs should have low and high aggro spells, low and high resist, short/long timers, etc.
I accept that average groups will want more bursty casting DPS, but anyone who ever did serious grouping with a skilled necromancer who knew their class, especially clerics, understands why the DoT casters kicked ass. That's the tradeoff you accept as a DoT caster. The majority of players won't get it where "sustained efficiency" is concerned, so groups will end up harder to come by for a DoT caster. And that tradeoff is totally worth it imho.
Ulaa said:I played an EQ necro for 6 years in a Raiding guild. As a guild we were unusual because we had one wizzie and 10-13 Necros. This made our approach to raid targets very different to most raid guilds. What my GL and RL LOVED about the Necro force was that as experienced Necros we could apply our damage consistantly and constantly and ensure we never ended up taking aggro. We knew if we didnt pay attention and dropped our DOT's too hard too fast and in the wrong order, any Necro could take aggro off even the most powerfull and well equipped of raid tanks. If I paid attention and balanced the layering of my DOT's, I could keep up a steady stream of damage pretty much forever.
The use of high damage, High aggro, short duration DOT spells vs lower damage, longer time, lower aggro DOT spells had to be balanced depending on encounter. You learned your DOT linelup and its capabilities or you died.
The thing I loved most about my Necro was the balanced application of DOT's, vs mana output vs self damage. The art of being a necro was balancing Regen (equipment/Spells) vs self damage DOT (Mana regen spell) and the out laying of damage to target(Aggro). Get all of that right and you could keep mana flowing, health to self and damage to target going forever, get it wrong and you died.
Necro's were usually middle to middle top of the Damage table on raids, but we were less damage and aggro spikey than some of the other classes and bought a lot of utility to encounters. I loved my Necro.
X
I am incredibly curious as to how this worked out considering that EQ1 npcs have a debuff cap limit of 97 debuffs. What era did you play? Had to be before TSS when they changed the spell casting system and unlinked dot lines. For the last 8-10 (i remember this happening occassionally in Seeds of Destruction, but got really bad around Rain of Fear+) years you couldn't raid with more than 4 good necros unless you had multiple bosses because debuff limits were consistently hit.
Venjenz said:DoT stacking should provide the highest caster DPS over any period of time longer than 1 minute. Period, the end. That's the point of the DoT stack...sustained DPS, so DoT casters should rule DPS meters on any long fight.
DoTs should stack. Period. If 4 necros are in the group, then 4 different applications of the same DoT will be stacked on that mob.
Have to disagree here; DoT stacking should offer perhaps the most cost effective DPS but not the highest caster DPS. DoT classes DPS in a sustained battle should be nearing the top DPS, but ruling the meters would be way too much. DoTs are mana efficient and allow you to keep sustained DPS while doing other things between reapplications, like throw out some DD spells or siphon/funnel mana from/to others etc. It tends to be one of the easier classes because even when they just keep their DoTs up they are still putting out middling DPS numbers.
Even in extended fights they should still have to battle for top DPS against other casters and rogues.
Iksar said:Have to disagree here; DoT stacking should offer perhaps the most cost effective DPS but not the highest caster DPS. DoT classes DPS in a sustained battle should be nearing the top DPS, but ruling the meters would be way too much. DoTs are mana efficient and allow you to keep sustained DPS while doing other things between reapplications, like throw out some DD spells or siphon/funnel mana from/to others etc. It tends to be one of the easier classes because even when they just keep their DoTs up they are still putting out middling DPS numbers.
Even in extended fights they should still have to battle for top DPS against other casters and rogues.
I see this a little differently. If a DoT type damage player is dumping DD's on a target, they immediately are no longer efficient, they are sacrificing their efficiency for damage that is ineffeicient (even moreso because this is not their specialty) and are probably doing so in a "burn" type situation. This is where your careful planning and juggling goes out the window and you lose sustainability almost instantly. That's okay, though. A DoT class should be able to sustain high damage on long fights and be able to be a contender for damage leads, but the second they start using their other spells to push as much damage as fast as they can, this is where they lose that tool of being able to be sustainable.
I also want to comment about +DoT damage. I think this is wildly amazing. I like it in such a way that it is better than Set bonuses that we have seen from other games. Set bonus items are sometimes kept for those awesome bonuses, but not always because the gear is better. Having bonuses on single items that affect a certain spell or affect a certain type of damage is very nice, because it allows for more of a customizeable set up.
Just imagine if we were talking a 5 minute duration...oh.. Wildfire DoT and it did 1/2% (arbitrary figure) damage every 6 seconds, imagine this spell kind of sucks, because an NPC fight only lasts 3 minutes. Now imagine a coveted piece of gear extended this spell for a minute longer, and another coveted piece of gear upped the damage to 1%. Now this spell is much better and it is aimed at big fights that you can prepare your character to perform much better! You could essentially tailor your spell casting to certain styles and spells without having to "spec talents" or hold on to gear bonus sets. You can be a completely different caster just by how you focus your delivery of damage. And this makes sense! Because we have lots of auto mechanics in the world, but some of them specialize in diesel work and not gasoline engines. They are still mechanics!
There are three types of fun.
Type I: Type I fun is fun the entire time you're doing it. It never sucks, you're never glad it's over, and just want it to keep going on and on.
Type II: Type II fun sucks the entire time you are doing it, but you are excited to either brag about it at the bar later or look back on it and value it as a character-building episode.
Type III: Type III fun is never fun while you're doing it, you often feel your life is threatened, certain doom is usually at hand, and half the time it ends in a harrowing rescue. Afterwards, you swear to never attempt anything similar ever again.
DoTs engender all three types of fun. I support DoTs.
Couple caveats:
-DoTs are most fun when crowd control is a fundamental part of the game.
-Melee DoTs should absolutely be a thing.
-Unpredictable DoTs - contagions for example - should be the exception rather than the rule.
-Don't throw DoT components on every ability; make their application optional and deliberate.
Solveris said:I see this a little differently. If a DoT type damage player is dumping DD's on a target, they immediately are no longer efficient, they are sacrificing their efficiency for damage that is ineffeicient (even moreso because this is not their specialty) and are probably doing so in a "burn" type situation. This is where your careful planning and juggling goes out the window and you lose sustainability almost instantly. That's okay, though. A DoT class should be able to sustain high damage on long fights and be able to be a contender for damage leads, but the second they start using their other spells to push as much damage as fast as they can, this is where they lose that tool of being able to be sustainable.
That's only true if the DD spells are expensive, if they are relatively cheap then it's not pushing much.
One way of doing it is making the DoTs themselves quite expensive but having alternate spells that increase the DoT timers, so keeping an eye on your DoTs is much more important and having one drop off is punishing. Then have cheap DD spells that do more damage based on how many of your DoTs are on the target, or even more damage the longer they have been ticking (to a reasonable max). Maybe even a strong nuke/burst that consumes all your DoTs. Just make the rest of the kit center around having your damage over time spells ticking away.
But having them be rewarded to the DPS levels of others who (tradionally) have more to pay attention in terms of abilitiy timers/mana/threat for just throwing out a few DoTs and reading a book isn't good design. They should be just as active as anyone else.
Reht said:Ulaa said:I played an EQ necro for 6 years in a Raiding guild. As a guild we were unusual because we had one wizzie and 10-13 Necros. EDIT
I am incredibly curious as to how this worked out considering that EQ1 npcs have a debuff cap limit of 97 debuffs. What era did you play? Had to be before TSS when they changed the spell casting system and unlinked dot lines. For the last 8-10 (i remember this happening occassionally in Seeds of Destruction, but got really bad around Rain of Fear+) years you couldn't raid with more than 4 good necros unless you had multiple bosses because debuff limits were consistently hit.
Hi Reht. :)
We also usually only had 1-2 Shammies in raid as well, one of whom was the GL / RL. I do vaguely remember the cap limit of debuffs, I dont remember it affecting us long term for some reason. I started playing the day of EQ launch but I really started raiding heavily in the year and a bit before the GOD release. I think we had Quarm on Farm before GOD came out. I was in an Australian Guild called Southern Armada. I remember it took us about a year to go from Zero to Time farming raiding 2 days a week. We were the second Australian guild into Time by minutes. We essentially stopped raiding after beating the GOD boss Vrex Barxt Qurat with a ranger as tank, a couple of months after release. I remember killing the Water avatar in the leadup to Time with about 12 Necros, we acted as pullers and when the timer kicked off and you had a minute to kill fishboy, we unleased everything we had at him as fast as we could. 10+ Necros layering Dots on a mob is a lot of consistant damage. I think the first time we did it we all got summoned and killed at his feet but the DOTs kept running. The subsequent times a couple of us usually managed to stay alive by throwing in a LOT of FD's
Ulaa said:Hi Reht. :)
We also usually only had 1-2 Shammies in raid as well, one of whom was the GL / RL. I do vaguely remember the cap limit of debuffs, I dont remember it affecting us long term for some reason. I started playing the day of EQ launch but I really started raiding heavily in the year and a bit before the GOD release. I think we had Quarm on Farm before GOD came out. I was in an Australian Guild called Southern Armada. I remember it took us about a year to go from Zero to Time farming raiding 2 days a week. We were the second Australian guild into Time by minutes. We essentially stopped raiding after beating the GOD boss Vrex Barxt Qurat with a ranger as tank, a couple of months after release. I remember killing the Water avatar in the leadup to Time with about 12 Necros, we acted as pullers and when the timer kicked off and you had a minute to kill fishboy, we unleased everything we had at him as fast as we could. 10+ Necros layering Dots on a mob is a lot of consistant damage. I think the first time we did it we all got summoned and killed at his feet but the DOTs kept running. The subsequent times a couple of us usually managed to stay alive by throwing in a LOT of FD's
Cool, i played a necro back then too. The changes with The Serpent Spine expansion changed necros significantly since they now stack between 18-24 dots (don't get me wrong, it takes some work and skill + timing to maintain that rotation and most players can't do it) each often using the highest total damage dot from 5-10 levels ago to finish out their rotation making them almost untouchable in 2min+ on a single boss (except for one other class that is broken as hell too). They stopped being the moderate sustained damage dealing casters with exceptional survivability (for a caster) and become damage juggernauts.
I'd say if you want to make dots no more damge it should be a scaling factor like the dots do more damage the weaker/less health it has combined with how many sots he has on him that way, you can lets say cast 8 dots on him at the beginning but has he starts losing health you have to limit how many dots your casting on him cuasing you will start gaining to much aggro and will rip the target off the tank, and only say this becuase for one poisons/diseases have more effect on an injured/unhealthy target than a healthy one, 2 the reason why less dots being used to so you have to stagger them and some obviously will cuase more aggro than others either to a certain debuff it cuaes the damage it puts out in general.
Another system you could use in instead of the target taking more damage but the target losing health it that the end of the duration cuasing more damage tot he target than the beginning, this is a little more advanced that the previous one cuase it it all abiut timing and using your spells prefectly to max out your dps if you start casting a 4 secong spell the moment it wore off and it ticks every 6 seconds you could lose a whole tick of damage if timed badly, or lets say there are 2 second timers to make it even more advanced you would probably have to time to correctly so you get the last tick of the dot damage to maximize the spell without making it miss it next tick of damage in the next tick phase. also we have to remember about the different dots dots with their different timers you will have to cast them in order to your preferences i usually do longest to shortest so i dont race tim on getting them all on the target before the first one falls, plus the longer ones do less damage usually than the short duration ones and gives he tank time to gather enough aggro, and also the longer duration lower damage dots usually carry the better debuffs, not always but most of the time.
ths is my 2 cp, i honestly like the lower healther of the target the more damage it does simply so your playing the game more than focusing on timing your spells prefectly than watching what you are doing in certain situations.
So, I really like these ideas you all have.
DoTs do seem to be inherently geared towards a soloist's tool. I looked through the tenants and some people have said that Pantheon will be a completely group centric game. I'd love to know exactly what those opinions are from hopefully Kilsin, but I should think that if a person wants to solo, they should be able to, it just shouldn't be more efficient than grouping.
If we can solo, however, I sure hope that a DoT is the prime tool for the job. A super long-lasting, efficient tool to get damage out there, the hard part should be the balancing of kiting and what not. Fear-kiting was perhaps my favorite tool in Vanguard and EQ
Solveris said:So, I really like these ideas you all have.
DoTs do seem to be inherently geared towards a soloist's tool. I looked through the tenants and some people have said that Pantheon will be a completely group centric game. I'd love to know exactly what those opinions are from hopefully Kilsin, but I should think that if a person wants to solo, they should be able to, it just shouldn't be more efficient than grouping.
If we can solo, however, I sure hope that a DoT is the prime tool for the job. A super long-lasting, efficient tool to get damage out there, the hard part should be the balancing of kiting and what not. Fear-kiting was perhaps my favorite tool in Vanguard and EQ
From the FAQ: "Will you be able to solo in Pantheon?": "Yes. While most content will be designed for groups, there will typically also be content that is soloable. Some classes may solo better than other classes."
So yes, soloing will be possible, but not always easy. Pantheon is group-centric, but I wouldn't say its "completely" group-centric. There may not be content that is specifically designed to be soloed. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. There's nothing directly prohibiting it. People will certainly find a way. There will also probably be several different soloing techniques, depending on the class. A lot more than just DoT's. Conversely, classes and tools that lend themselves to soloing will not be limited to soloing. They will also be able to find value in a group setting.
Granted, I didn't read everyones post. But one thing I think people need to be careful with is that dot's are usually 'weaker' because of the fact that they are providing dmg while you are able to do other things. If you ramp up dot dmg at all, then those classes become immensely powerful. To the point where they would be far and away the best dps.
If you want to build a class based solely on dots, no melee, no direct dmg, etc then sure it could work as they would have to rely on just those spells. But making powerful dots that work while casting medium ranged direct dmg, then it becomes out of balance.
Dot's providing added benefits, ie the darkness lines, are completely doable. It's adding another level to them without increasing the damage done.
Just my 2 cents.
Enitzu said:Granted, I didn't read everyones post. But one thing I think people need to be careful with is that dot's are usually 'weaker' because of the fact that they are providing dmg while you are able to do other things. If you ramp up dot dmg at all, then those classes become immensely powerful. To the point where they would be far and away the best dps.
Check out my post above Enitzu. ;)
But yes, exactly.
Iksar said:Enitzu said:Granted, I didn't read everyones post. But one thing I think people need to be careful with is that dot's are usually 'weaker' because of the fact that they are providing dmg while you are able to do other things. If you ramp up dot dmg at all, then those classes become immensely powerful. To the point where they would be far and away the best dps.
Check out my post above Enitzu. ;)
But yes, exactly.
That's why you make it a scaling factor in place to moderate when they do their most damage, has for where the DD spells of a wizard does more damage at the beginning of every fight but the necro slowly starts to creep closer and closer to him but at the end of the fight they seem to be about the same amount of damage if a wizzard always does more damage no matter what than why be a necro if you could simply be a wizzard, can you do other things while your dots are ticking yes, but most of that time is casting more dots, or simply debuffing the target or anything esle it not like they simply cast 3 dots that all last for than 18 seconds to where they are tap dancing for 12 seconds waiting for them to wear off, it actually is one of the more fun and complicated classes to be since everything is about timing and knowing when one of your dots are going to off of and when to start replacing it as for wizzards can pretty much be macro smashed to death and come out with decent dps, which the necro has really never been that way really since most of the time every dots has a different timer than the others so the rotation is constantly different.
Riahuf22 said:That's why you make it a scaling factor in place to moderate when they do their most damage, has for where the DD spells of a wizard does more damage at the beginning of every fight but the necro slowly starts to creep closer and closer to him but at the end of the fight they seem to be about the same amount of damage if a wizzard always does more damage no matter what than why be a necro if you could simply be a wizzard, can you do other things while your dots are ticking yes, but most of that time is casting more dots, or simply debuffing the target or anything esle it not like they simply cast 3 dots that all last for than 18 seconds to where they are tap dancing for 12 seconds waiting for them to wear off, it actually is one of the more fun and complicated classes to be since everything is about timing and knowing when one of your dots are going to off of and when to start replacing it as for wizzards can pretty much be macro smashed to death and come out with decent dps, which the necro has really never been that way really since most of the time every dots has a different timer than the others so the rotation is constantly different.
Oh i don't know ... maybe because necros have much more survivability? Or soloability? Without a large area to kite in Wizard soloing is non existant. Where necro's can solo in the smallest of areas.
Dot based classes are generally based around over all dmg over a time frame. As are all other classes. So any way it goes they should all be pretty similar. Maybe wiz edges things out in the dps department due to the amount of tools necros have over them. As for macro smashing ... if you macro smash as a wizard then you'll be eating dirt often. Necros need to watch timers to keep steady dps. Wizards need to watch threat to keep from being dead every pull.
One is not 'better' than the other. It's different playstyles completely. To be a good necro you have to know how to maximize your rotation without clipping dots. To be a good wiz you have to maximize dmg without ripping threat and getting 1 shot.
I definitely think that it would be on a sliding scale as far as damage.
A Pure DoT Class would be equal to a Pure DD class. A pure dot class would have dd, but if they use both, they run out of mana or their efficiency tanks and you no longer have that sustained damage. This is how you control the being able to do other things.. yes I could switch to DD, but I wouldn't unless I'm burning because my spell lines arent built for this.
Enitzu said:Riahuf22 said:That's why you make it a scaling factor in place to moderate when they do their most damage, has for where the DD spells of a wizard does more damage at the beginning of every fight but the necro slowly starts to creep closer and closer to him but at the end of the fight they seem to be about the same amount of damage if a wizzard always does more damage no matter what than why be a necro if you could simply be a wizzard, can you do other things while your dots are ticking yes, but most of that time is casting more dots, or simply debuffing the target or anything esle it not like they simply cast 3 dots that all last for than 18 seconds to where they are tap dancing for 12 seconds waiting for them to wear off, it actually is one of the more fun and complicated classes to be since everything is about timing and knowing when one of your dots are going to off of and when to start replacing it as for wizzards can pretty much be macro smashed to death and come out with decent dps, which the necro has really never been that way really since most of the time every dots has a different timer than the others so the rotation is constantly different.
Oh i don't know ... maybe because necros have much more survivability? Or soloability? Without a large area to kite in Wizard soloing is non existant. Where necro's can solo in the smallest of areas.
Dot based classes are generally based around over all dmg over a time frame. As are all other classes. So any way it goes they should all be pretty similar. Maybe wiz edges things out in the dps department due to the amount of tools necros have over them. As for macro smashing ... if you macro smash as a wizard then you'll be eating dirt often. Necros need to watch timers to keep steady dps. Wizards need to watch threat to keep from being dead every pull.
One is not 'better' than the other. It's different playstyles completely. To be a good necro you have to know how to maximize your rotation without clipping dots. To be a good wiz you have to maximize dmg without ripping threat and getting 1 shot.
How do you know necros have better survivability than wizards in a game that hasnt come out yet, you dont....no one does we have no idea how its going to pan out maybe necros will be terrible soloers by making kiting very difficult and maybe they wont get a root to keep them in space, we have no idea what they have for us at this givin time so to suggest they have any survivabilty over a wizard is premature entirely. Also a wizard that only has to watch his threat level is childs play if thats all he has to do compared to a necro knowing which dots is coming off and the next and the next knowing the rotation is constantly chnaging and making sure he knows which one it is and cast it with approaite timing to make sure he can get the next dot in time withoout casting them to early. so like i said before they much more advanced class to play, so they should be rewarded with doing more damage in the long run on the fight as where the wizards do it at the beginning of the fight, it really only makes since and im not saying the necro is going to out dps the wizard becuase he has to play him correctly and everything else to effectively dps the mob and out dps the wizard which depending of the fight could be pretty tuff for the mere fact the longer the fight the more dots wear off and the more different rotations you are running into and making sre your casting the correct spells as for im sure the wizard will run into different rotatioons from time to time but obviously not like the necro so there for necros should also be rewarded for this if they accomplish such a feat since they obvously wont be doing it in every fight.
Yes, of course most of these kind of talks are largely conjecture. None of us know what any of this will shape up to be yet.
For my part, I was speaking to the idea of DoTs themself. The acronym even has the word Time as part of it. If you're a DoT-centric class, what does that say to your average logical person?
The more time that goes by, the more damage can be done, yes? maybe? So speaking purely from a damage oriented point of view, I would think if a fight lasts 1 minute, a direct damage caster could outperform a dot caster, but make that a 5 minute fight and the time caster in my mind should pull ahead, if not stunningly so.
But like others have brought up in regards to balance, a classes utility needs considered when deciding their lethality. This is where all of the conjecture of kiting, fearing, snaring, healing, etc. all gets mixed into the conversation. But we really have like nothing to go on at this point as to which class will get what utility.
My two copper is on the "make DoTs amazing" pile. That's all :)
I have never played a game in which managing DoT rotations is at all difficult, especially since it would be ridiculous to have to stack more than three or four of them. Even in FFXIV where the summoner has to maintain three to four dots, on top of managing a pet's abilities, and keeping track of a separate resource called aetherflow. DoTs are easy, they are probably the easiest form of damage in MMORPGs especially because even if you are a terrible player but can hit 1-3/4 on your keyboard you are typically pulling decent enough numbers. For all we know wizards will be able to just hit 1 over and over again (unlikely but for sake of argument), is it really that much more difficult to hit 1,2,3,4 then do whatever for 20 seconds or more? Not to mention if there is any movement required in a fight, non-DoT classes all suffer comparatively, another edge they have.
Here is how it played out in EQ, quoted from my response in an old Necromancer thread:
...In classic EQ they were an amazing solo class, that was their specialty. But even solo you would not really be taking on things above even or maybe low yellow con because a resist or two could spell certain death, and killing/mana efficiency suffered.
Necromancers did tend to have poor damage in GROUPS but otherwise had hands down the best from a damage per mana (DPM) standpoint. In practical application in the fast-paced group or raid atmosphere, the necromancer was often a failure as a DPS in terms of DPM. As a group becomes more effective, the necromancer ends up using less mana efficient, but faster spells, sacrificing DPM for the sake of getting the DPS out before the enemy dies. Only during solo activities and the more lengthier (raid) fights can the necromancer generally get their efficiency as advertised.
Honestly for what ive seen from the videos a 5 min fight is like a small boss target in a zone not even one of the harder ones at that, so id say even at 5 min the DD class would probably out preform them but the DoT classers would of been catching up for sure, but back to the point i agree with the rest of what you said.