I logged onto EQ the other day to see that my old level 70 Necro that I haven't seriously played in a decade was automatically upgraded to a level 85 Necro with a brand new set of gear. For fun, I headed over towards Western Wastes and got there with ease. I saw that Sontalak was up and tried to solo him...and was successful. Never thought I'd be able to do something like that. Being able to go back and kill things after outleveling the content has always been fun to me, including when I used to do it in World of Warcraft. It makes sense that you should be able to do that kind of things in games.
But as I was sitting there enjoying what I was doing, it reminded me of something that I absolutely hated in World of Warcraft. I was always in a guild that was advancing into new content as soon as it was released. It was always a challenge going into a zone and killing bosses before anyone really knew how to go about killing them. As an example, I recall going into Ulduar right after it's release and wiping over and over and over on something as simple as trash pulls. You'd spend the time learning the mechanics and eventually, after clearing the zone, you'd go back and do the Heroic version of those bosses. Some of the Heroic versions were exponentially more difficult than you would expect. But after countless wipes, you'd win...
Here comes the part that I hate...
Two weeks after you downed the ultra-hard heroic version of a boss, Blizzard would come out and nerf the heck out of the encounter. Suddenly, everyone and their mother was killing the same thing you just did with 95% less frustration than you had. All your time, effort, and skill became meaningless. All the tactics that your guild had learned and perfected became worthless.
I hope Pantheon does not nerf content after its been released. I understand that if a boss mechanic is not working properly, that it needs to be fixed. But I hope that we don't end up in situations where content is nerfed weeks or months after it has been released because people feel that they deserve to be able to kill the content. If I am going to take something seriously, I hope I am rewarded for it. If I don't take it seriously and I don't put the time in, I shouldn't be handed the same reward as those who did. That kind of thing happened over and over and over again in World of Warcraft. Eventually, it became a major contributor towards my lack of will to play the game.
Sometimes it is necessary, as the encounters or mobs are just more difficult than is called for (maybe loot isn't good enough, or it is blocking for something else that nobody can now get to except the very few). Now don't get me wrong, I do believe there should be areas that only the most dedicated and talented guilds can get to, but large portions of content shouldn't be this way.
That being said, if there is no real reason to do so, I don't like the idea either. Eventually when the next expansion comes out, people will be able to do it anyway. In EverQuest, there were many guilds that were doing last expansions bosses and encounters, and they seamed perfectly happy doing so.
So while I mostly agree with what you said, I do see that there could be exceptions to this.
I hope so too, but I don't think we have any reason to believe that it'll be that way. That would completely go against their values that they've clearly laid out multiple times in the tenets:
"An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding."
"An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
"A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge."
"A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned."
I wouldn't even worry about it tbh. Blizz/WoW are almost polar opposites of VR/Pantheon.
Beefcake said:The key is to just test well. If it's broke, fix it. If it's working as intended, don't nerf just to make whiners happy.
Exactly. Even more reason why people with access to Pre-Alpha, Alpha, and Beta should actually test the game. And by that, I don't mean "this boss was too hard. it should be easier." Testing will mostly mean searching for bugs and exploits. But even more importantly, it means identifying mechanics that have no counterplay. For example, if a boss has a deathtouch ability that instantly kills a random character nearby and there is no sort of visual/auditory tell that warns you when it's about to happen (perhaps it even happens at random intervals) and there is no buff that can protect you against it... well then you'll probably want to suggest to the devs that the mechanic is not very FUN because there's literally nothing you can do about it and there's too much chance involved. The FUN aspect of challenges is figuring out how to counter the obstacle and then executing the plan. If that's not possible, something needs to change. If it's possible but you're just not skilled enough to execute it, well then get good lol ;P
Dreake said:All your time, effort, and skill became meaningless. All the tactics that your guild had learned and perfected became worthless.
This attitude is self-defeating and unsustainable. Enjoyment isn't a zero-sum game. Other people enjoying something shouldn't detract from you enjoyment. Changes are an opportunity to have more fun re-learning a fight.
Bazgrim said:Beefcake said:The key is to just test well. If it's broke, fix it. If it's working as intended, don't nerf just to make whiners happy.
Exactly. Even more reason why people with access to Pre-Alpha, Alpha, and Beta should actually test the game. And by that, I don't mean "this boss was too hard. it should be easier." Testing will mostly mean searching for bugs and exploits. But even more importantly, it means identifying mechanics that have no counterplay. For example, if a boss has a deathtouch ability that instantly kills a random character nearby and there is no sort of visual/auditory tell that warns you when it's about to happen (perhaps it even happens at random intervals) and there is no buff that can protect you against it... well then you'll probably want to suggest to the devs that the mechanic is not very FUN because there's literally nothing you can do about it and there's too much chance involved. The FUN aspect of challenges is figuring out how to counter the obstacle and then executing the plan. If that's not possible, something needs to change. If it's possible but you're just not skilled enough to execute it, well then get good lol ;P
Let's hope everyone does their best testing...this is afterall OUR game. :) Can't wait to start. :)
If i where a game producer i would give the players some kind of special reward for beating such a hard content after having nerfed it. Maybe some special buffed up version of the loot the boss owned. So whoever won it that day gets an upgrade to the existing items. And thoose that didn win but helped the with the extra hard version could all choose 1 normal version of the bosses loot. (A gift from the gods). Or they would get a title which incorporates some of the stats that boss represented. (More then one of thoose titles could be activated at once).
Think something like that would have to be discussed depending on the difficulty it had pre nerf. And would be more then worth the time invested if it happens.
I remember years ago beating my head up againt Venril Sathir in EQ2 RoK. The guild I ran literally worked at it for months, Venril was nick named the guild killer at the time. We ended up needing to have several people switch classes to make a more perfect raid set up, and sadly let several people sit that just couldn't do the encounter right.
We ended up putting him down, and cleared the rest of the xpac. Shortly after that they nerfed him to easy mode and several folks in the guild complained about it. What I told them at the time was, be proud you killed it pre-nerf. Some encounters are sadly too difficult for people to do, be it for whatever reason. I know some folks would say they didn't belong raiding or some other nonsense.
As others have said broken encounters need to be fixed, and sometimes they are just too complicated for the bulk of a community to tackle. Be happy if you get it done before it's nerfed, after it's nerfed what does it matter? Why block folks from progression due mechanics that are too difficult for them.
If mobs get nerfed the pre nerf items that drop should have their names changed to denote they were pre nerf.
The items dropped should also be nerfed commensurate to new challenge level in relation to difficulty.
If it goes the other way in difficulty same thing.
Just my opinion.
Shai said:Dreake said:All your time, effort, and skill became meaningless. All the tactics that your guild had learned and perfected became worthless.
This attitude is self-defeating and unsustainable. Enjoyment isn't a zero-sum game. Other people enjoying something shouldn't detract from you enjoyment. Changes are an opportunity to have more fun re-learning a fight.
I agree... it's how I feel about the people who complain about others rushing to max level. Unless Pantheon is the type of game where an uber guild is able to lock down raid targets or other choice content and deny me access alltogether, then their play has no effect on my enjoying my journey.
If I did something hard, then it got nerfed, I'd be even happier I did it before it was easy. The more challenging Pantheon is, the more I think I'll enjoy it. =)
Nerf in general is a bad thing, for boss mob encounters and characters too. EQ will always be remember too for its nerfing after so many years they still could not get it right, maybe that is why landmark failed too... nerf customers pocketbooks.
Either way i agree with the OP on nerfing content.
kdavis said:Shai said:Dreake said:All your time, effort, and skill became meaningless. All the tactics that your guild had learned and perfected became worthless.
This attitude is self-defeating and unsustainable. Enjoyment isn't a zero-sum game. Other people enjoying something shouldn't detract from you enjoyment. Changes are an opportunity to have more fun re-learning a fight.
I agree... it's how I feel about the people who complain about others rushing to max level. Unless Pantheon is the type of game where an uber guild is able to lock down raid targets or other choice content and deny me access alltogether, then their play has no effect on my enjoying my journey.
If I did something hard, then it got nerfed, I'd be even happier I did it before it was easy. The more challenging Pantheon is, the more I think I'll enjoy it. =)
Yeah that's definitely very important to remember. For the same reason, I think "pay to win" arguments in PvE MMO's are funny. There is no "winning." Yes, showing off accomplishments is a big part of motivation, but there's also something to be said for not constantly trying to one-up people and turn it into a vanity competition.
I don't think VR will nerf content that fast maybe after 1 or 2 years, because most of the content will be relevant from the moment of release and won't become useless or outdaded for a long time. It wont be like wow, where once the new raid Tier or new expansion is release all else that's behind becomes irrelevant.
Being first means you are essential live testing. They will review the logs after a major mob is killed and sometimes see unintended consequences or practices and have to tweak things.
It's the price you pay fro being first.
Buy a first year model car, and deal with the bugs. Buy a first release gadget and pay more than someone buying the second gen a year later.
Change happens .
If an encounter is so difficult that it can be only done by the very best and talented players, and by others only after the next level increase...then the devs simply did a bad job. As said above already, extensive use of random or twitch gameplay usually indicates a poorly designed encounter. IMO, content must be designed so that it can be done by all reasonably well equipped, experienced players in the current expansion. Of course that doesn't mean it should be possible to finish it in the first week after the expansion is out. But content should never be designed only for the "upper 5%" of players.
Would be cool if we got tabards or something similar, and "medals" could be put on them... you'd get a medal for being first at a specific encounter.
Or even medals pinned to our inspectable profile.
Something faster, easier to see, and flashier than 'achievements'.
Shai said:Sarim said:...content must be designed so that it can be done by all reasonably well equipped, experienced players in the current expansion. ...content should never be designed only for the "upper 5%" of players.
why?
Content should be developed for a variety of playstyles, Top 5%, included.
Shai said:why?
IMO it is a waste of developer resources. Why should they put a lot of effort into some content if only very few people will ever see it? Especially if a new expansion might bring more accessible content with better rewards before more people can finish the old one (OK that part is speculation on my part, I hope that something like this isn't going to happen).
Note: I'm not saying that content should be easy. But if I spend my time in the expansion, get all the upgrade gear from group content, and am with a competent (though not elite) guild, then its my opinion that pretty much all raid content should be doable. You should be able to learn and execute any encounter with a competent guild. Success should not hang on random or twitch elements so that you need "super" players to overcome the odds, that's what I'm saying.
Sarim said:Shai said:why?Why should they put a lot of effort into some content if only very few people will ever see it?
Because the experience for those few people will be great. Also, because of the mystic. Knowing that there's a legendary monster somewhere out there - even if you'll never see it yourself - is a powerful community dynamic.
Beefcake said:Content should be developed for a variety of playstyles, Top 5%, included.
Agree 100%, it's good for the game to always have someone too look up to, or an encounter/area to progress towards.
Having unbeatean and hard to acces content creates mystique for the entire player base and something to look foward. Remember that this game is not about the finish line it's about the journey to get there.
Sarim said:Shai said:why?IMO it is a waste of developer resources. Why should they put a lot of effort into some content if only very few people will ever see it? Especially if a new expansion might bring more accessible content with better rewards before more people can finish the old one (OK that part is speculation on my part, I hope that something like this isn't going to happen).
Note: I'm not saying that content should be easy. But if I spend my time in the expansion, get all the upgrade gear from group content, and am with a competent (though not elite) guild, then its my opinion that pretty much all raid content should be doable. You should be able to learn and execute any encounter with a competent guild. Success should not hang on random or twitch elements so that you need "super" players to overcome the odds, that's what I'm saying.
Like it or not, raiders are a very vocal minority. If content is not there to challenge them, negative ideas of the game will spread quickly and Pantheon (which is supposed to be a challenging game) gets an undeserved bad name.
Challenging top tier raiding is important to the success of any MMO. It does not have to be the focus, but important and unignorable nonetheless.
Sarim said:Shai said:why?IMO it is a waste of developer resources. Why should they put a lot of effort into some content if only very few people will ever see it? Especially if a new expansion might bring more accessible content with better rewards before more people can finish the old one (OK that part is speculation on my part, I hope that something like this isn't going to happen).
Note: I'm not saying that content should be easy. But if I spend my time in the expansion, get all the upgrade gear from group content, and am with a competent (though not elite) guild, then its my opinion that pretty much all raid content should be doable. You should be able to learn and execute any encounter with a competent guild. Success should not hang on random or twitch elements so that you need "super" players to overcome the odds, that's what I'm saying.
I don't know why you're assuming that the game will be twitch at the top end. The devs have said many time that strategy will be the important part of combat not your abilitie to follow a rotation.
Also expansion will not make the previous content outdated, VR knows that if they do that all the other content they've done becomes obsolete so i just don't see them making something like wow expansions.
If you say you're with a competent group and you have adquired all the possible gear upgrades you will more than likely be able to kill all the encounters. But you wont get to kill them at release or anytime near that. The top 1% will always push hard than everyone else and it's safe to assume they will have better gear then you that way they will get to kill the encounter before you. once you get to their level of gear and proggression they will (more than likely) have moved to another challange.
If VR does content updates correctly and tries to keep the high end content relevant even after another expansion comes out then you'll still have a reason to go back and do the encounters you weren't capable of beating and get rewards that are still relevant for your progression.
jpedrote said:But you wont get to kill them at release or anytime near that. The top 1% will always push hard than everyone else and it's safe to assume they will have better gear then you that way they will get to kill the encounter before you. once you get to their level of gear and proggression they will (more than likely) have moved to another challange.
And that's exactly what I said. I said once a guild has done the current group / lesser raid content, they should be able to do any (raid) content in the current expansion. Of course there will be always the hardcore players who do everything faster than the average, and I have no problem with that! But if content is so difficult that only a minority of players can do it in the current expansion, then it has been designed/balanced poorly.
This thread is about nerfing content after its release. I'm saying that it should be designed well and reasonable from the start, so that nerfs won't be required at all. And IMO that means, not designing content with the "top 5% of players" in mind.