I wanted to share a recent idea of mine that involves some of the feats that I would like to see available in Terminus. I recently attempted to share this idea on an Achievement Thread but it's not an actual achievement system and I don't want it to be misconstrued as such. I will stop posting on that thread so as not to further derail it from the traditional achievement systems that people are accustomed to. This is not something that would be tied into an in-game achievement window. You would not receive achievement points. There would not be any trackers or progress windows. I would want this to feel completely organic within the world of Terminus and the benefits would only be received when a player interacts with specific NPC's that have a vested interest in rewarding your character for their concentrated efforts. The idea is to reward players based on their actions by providing small incremental upgrades to their overall outward character progression. This will be a work in progress. If you have any ideas for new categories, requirements, rewards, or how any of this could be implemented in the most organic way possible, please feel free to share your thoughts.
Combat
I) Creature Mastery: The Creature Curator in each major city offers to teach adventurers a powerful ability should they prove themselves worthy. They are granted a ring that siphons the essence of every creature killed (assuming they have an actual mob-type distinction) -- the ring will glow noticeably should they slay an adequate amount of a given creature type, signaling that they should revisit the Curator.
Requirements:
1A) -- Defeat 10,000 level appropriate NPC's of the same mob type. (IE, Skeletons, Goblins, Giants, Kobolds -- will use skeletons as example)
2A) -- Can scale .1 for grey, .5 for green, .75 for blue, 1 for white, 1.25 for yellow, 1.5 for orange, 2 for red, 3 for epic cons.
Rewards: (Choose 1)
1B) -- Skeleton Smite: Attack only useable on skeletons. Moderate damage, 60 second cooldown.
2B) -- Skeleton Resistance: Temporary defensive buff vs skeletons. 10% damage reduction, 15 second duration, 90 second cooldown.
3B) -- Skeleton Blight: Debuff only useable on skeletons. Attack speed / Resistances lowered by 10%, 15 second duration, 90 second cooldown.
4B) -- Skeleton Facade: Self-cast illusion spell that turns user into a skeleton. User becomes nonaggro to non-boss skeletons, 15 second duration, 5 minute cooldown.
Local Duties
I) Talk of the Town: Tavern Bartenders or Lodge Hosts will offer perks to adventurers who make a name for themselves with the locals.
Requirements:
1A) -- Complete X amount of quests given by local area NPC's.
2A) -- Earn X amount of faction within a local area.
Rewards:
1B) -- 50% discount on food or beverage purchased at local establishment (Both would be consumed instantly and offer a limited duration stat buff to prevent resale value issues)
2B) -- 50% discount on lodging services purchased at local establishment (Would provide limited duration buff that increases out of combat mana/health regen)
Regional Duties
I) Look Who's Talkin' Now: Major city merchants will offer perks to adventurers who have made a name for themselves within all of the local areas of a specific region.
Requirements:
1A) -- Complete X amount of quests within each local area of a region. (X can vary from area to area depending on quest volume)
2A) -- Earn X amount of faction with all of the local areas of a given region.
Rewards:
1B) -- New merchandise becomes available to purchase from various merchant types.
2B) -- Merchants pay 5% more for any goods sold to them.
Exploration
Crafting
Faction
Merchants
Banking
Mentoring
Adventuring
Raiding
Trade
Black Market
Pantheon
Progeny
Player Housing
Player Farms
Acclimation
Gathering
Diplomacy
PVP
Prestige
*Edited to remove cartography from exploration until more information becomes available on how the map/atlas feature will work.
I suspect your first inclination to post in the Achievement thread was the correct one!
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1656/achievements
Your concept of 'hidden Feats' is alluded to here:
Xxar said:Who says the system has to even tell you ? There might be achievements , but no list of said achievement or reward.
And discussed further:
Beefcake said:I like your idea of hidden achievements. Makes it great for those that discover things on their own. Of course, the naysayers will soon say that nothing is kept hidden once some one finds it and posts it on a WWW site. Then, they will claim it becomes mandatory. For them, I just say don't read the sites. Hidden achievements are a solid idea. It may even encourage people to try and discover similar achievements.
There are some great ideas and discussions about this topic hidden within the 4+ pages of posts! I strongly encourage you to find the gems within, consider how these arguments affect your proposed 'feats', then perhaps post a concise description of your idea for others to consider.
Evoras, wants an achievement for achieving achievements!
oneADseven said:
I don’t feel there’s the need to create a system to give these rewards, most of the things you suggested are already part of the game, and has you said “I would want this to feel completely organic within the world of Terminus”, if a specific system is needed, reaching that goal is impossible.
Combat –The idea of getting stronger against a type of enemy is a good one, but having to kill 10k mobs, to me, is not the right way to go about it. My suggestion would be to put those spells or abilities at the end of a zone with that mob type (Ex: skeletons), maybe a named mob drops them, or a sage that teaches you the spells. The concept is the same you kill skeletons, you get a spells that are effective against them.
Regional Duties –(correct me if I’m wrong) This is already implemented in the game, it’s the faction system, if you’re friendly with a faction they give you better prices and more items, I don’t agree with having to complete a certain number of quests, that just restricts the players choices, some people like to quest, others like to grind other like to do both, so restricting a certain benefit to one of those is not a great thing, let the player choose what he wants to do.
Exploration – It’s very unlikely VR will do something like this, they are really big on no maps, and I remember hearing them say that there will be no detailed maps in game, only a world map that tells you your rough position on the world.
I honestly fell that there’s no need for these type of systems, you will set your own goals inside the game, and you will pursue them and reach them. If the game is done correctly all these things will be in the game, and there will be no need to create such a system.
jpedrote said:oneADseven said:
I don’t feel there’s the need to create a system to give these rewards, most of the things you suggested are already part of the game, and has you said “I would want this to feel completely organic within the world of Terminus”, if a specific system is needed, reaching that goal is impossible.
Combat –The idea of getting stronger against a type of enemy is a good one, but having to kill 10k mobs, to me, is not the right way to go about it. My suggestion would be to put those spells or abilities at the end of a zone with that mob type (Ex: skeletons), maybe a named mob drops them, or a sage that teaches you the spells. The concept is the same you kill skeletons, you get a spells that are effective against them.
Regional Duties –(correct me if I’m wrong) This is already implemented in the game, it’s the faction system, if you’re friendly with a faction they give you better prices and more items, I don’t agree with having to complete a certain number of quests, that just restricts the players choices, some people like to quest, others like to grind other like to do both, so restricting a certain benefit to one of those is not a great thing, let the player choose what he wants to do.
Exploration – It’s very unlikely VR will do something like this, they are really big on no maps, and I remember hearing them say that there will be no detailed maps in game, only a world map that tells you your rough position on the world.
I honestly fell that there’s no need for these type of systems, you will set your own goals inside the game, and you will pursue them and reach them. If the game is done correctly all these things will be in the game, and there will be no need to create such a system.
Hi jpedrote,
I understand your concerns about not wanting an achievement system. That's why I stopped posting on the achievement thread and created my own. I share your sentiment about an achievement system and tried explaining my stance on that topic the best I could on the other thread. I think the entire concept of an achievement system is played out, and the risk vs reward ratio has been way out of whack. My idea is more of a quest/faction hybrid except the feats wouldn't work like a regular quest and our characters reputation would be defined by more than just their faction score. I'm going to touch on some of your points and try to explain why my idea isn't a "system" and some of the reasoning behind different aspects of the idea.
"I don’t feel there’s the need to create a system to give these rewards, most of the things you suggested are already part of the game, and has you said “I would want this to feel completely organic within the world of Terminus”, if a specific system is needed, reaching that goal is impossible."
I am not asking for a system to be created. I am providing examples of how these feats could be organically added to the game. There would be no universal system that tie all of these feats together. Each feat would be completely independant in and of itself. There would be no achievement window, quest log, progress tracker or waypoint for any of the feats. The entire concept is based on unlocking new NPC interactions if our character meets the associated criteria.
"Combat –The idea of getting stronger against a type of enemy is a good one, but having to kill 10k mobs, to me, is not the right way to go about it. My suggestion would be to put those spells or abilities at the end of a zone with that mob type (Ex: skeletons), maybe a named mob drops them, or a sage that teaches you the spells. The concept is the same you kill skeletons, you get a spells that are effective against them."
My understanding is that the world of Terminus will indeed have sages that offer to help our characters should they be worthy. The Creature Curator is merely an example of one such sage, but there could be plenty of others throughout the game. The 10k mob requirement isn't set in stone, it's only used as a reference point. The development team could modify the requirements of this feat to whatever they deemed appropriate.
"Regional Duties –(correct me if I’m wrong) This is already implemented in the game, it’s the faction system, if you’re friendly with a faction they give you better prices and more items, I don’t agree with having to complete a certain number of quests, that just restricts the players choices, some people like to quest, others like to grind other like to do both, so restricting a certain benefit to one of those is not a great thing, let the player choose what he wants to do."
In my idea, players would be able to earn multiple benefits. One benefit would be tied into completing the majority of quests in a local area, and the other would be tied into faction. There is nothing wrong with restricting how these benefits are acquired. If someone doesen't want to quest, they can earn the benefit tied into faction or vice versa. If they want both rewards, they'll need to complete both of the requirements. This particular example is but one of many ways that our character can unlock new NPC interactions through faction score. Seeing as quests will likely reward faction, this is creating another layer of progression for our characters. Personally, I would start working on the quests first because it would be a way to double dip for my efforts. A player would not be restricted in doing this, though. If they preferred to only grind faction, that would be their choice, but I feel that having the quest requirement adds another layer of building character reputation. In my opinion, I think an NPC would look more highly upon an individual that helped all of the locals with their storyline woes as opposed to someone who only killed a bunch of the local baddies.
"Exploration – It’s very unlikely VR will do something like this, they are really big on no maps, and I remember hearing them say that there will be no detailed maps in game, only a world map that tells you your rough position on the world."
Can you share your source of this information? I haven't been able to find any official explanation on whether or not an in-game map would be used. I have, however, read multiple threads where players have suggested that they would like to see a mapping feature become available through cartographers. My idea expands on that; each zone would have it's very own cartographer -- with some in more obvious locations than others. If a player goes out of their way to assist the cartographer by sharing their recollection of all of the points of interest, the cartographer would reward them with a map for that zone. I personally would find this type of experience rather rewarding and would go out of my way to find the cartographer in every zone and assist them in their map-making endeavors. The regional cartographer only expands on the idea further. If someone is able to acquire a map for each zone in a given region, the regional cartographer would be willing to teach them how to scribe custom notations on each zone map within their given region.
Hi oneADseven,
I get what you want to create with these activities, having more ways to progress your character are great, and gives you options, but such strict ways of acquiring progression don’t fit the gameplay that Pantheon is trying to create, and open world where you are in command of how your character progresses. Again the idea of having extra activities is a good one, but the implementation you’re suggesting, for me, it’s too strict and will lead to just a bunch of tasks that need to be done. The core game will have all these variables but I don’t feel that making the requirements so rigid to get the rewards is not a good thing.
oneADseven said:Hi jpedrote,
I understand your concerns about not wanting an achievement system. That's why I stopped posting on the achievement thread and created my own. I share your sentiment about an achievement system and tried explaining my stance on that topic the best I could on the other thread. I think the entire concept of an achievement system is played out, and the risk vs reward ratio has been way out of whack. My idea is more of a quest/faction hybrid except the feats wouldn't work like a regular quest and our characters reputation would be defined by more than just their faction score. I'm going to touch on some of your points and try to explain why my idea isn't a "system" and some of the reasoning behind different aspects of the idea.
I am not asking for a system to be created. I am providing examples of how these feats could be organically added to the game. There would be no universal system that tie all of these feats together. Each feat would be completely independant in and of itself. There would be no achievement window, quest log, progress tracker or waypoint for any of the feats. The entire concept is based on unlocking new NPC interactions if our character meets the associated criteria.
Yes I got that, but the ideas you suggested, even though they don’t use an achievement window or a proper UI systems, are still in its core an achievement system. You still need to kill x number of monster, complete x amount of quests, discover x amounts of areas, etc, and that’s a typical achievement systems, not having an interface associated with it makes no difference.
oneADseven said:Combat
My understanding is that the world of Terminus will indeed have sages that offer to help our characters should they be worthy. The Creature Curator is merely an example of one such sage, but there could be plenty of others throughout the game. The 10k mob requirement isn't set in stone, it's only used as a reference point. The development team could modify the requirements of this feat to whatever they deemed appropriate.
My problem with your suggestion is not killing a lot of monsters, is the reward for killing them.
Giving a power increase to a character against a type of monster (Ex: skeleton), for killing a large number of mobs of the same type creates a problem, it gives way for the “bonus” to become a requirement.
This is best explained with an example
Ex: you want to run a raid or dungeon that’s populated by the undead(skeletons), if all classes are allowed to have a power increase against skeletons, then it’s beneficial (and possibly a requirement) for everyone one to have the power up, because it can be acquired outside of the specific zone.
But if the power increase is only given to certain classes, (spells against the undead for clerics and paladins) and the power increase is only obtained deep inside a zone or at the end, having it before hand is not seen as a requirement. The result is still the same, if you as a cleric or paladin want a specific spell to make you stronger against the undead you need to kill undead.
oneADseven said:Regional Duties
In my idea, players would be able to earn multiple benefits. One benefit would be tied into completing the majority of quests in a local area, and the other would be tied into faction. There is nothing wrong with restricting how these benefits are acquired. If someone doesen't want to quest, they can earn the benefit tied into faction or vice versa. If they want both rewards, they'll need to complete both of the requirements. This particular example is but one of many ways that our character can unlock new NPC interactions through faction score. Seeing as quests will likely reward faction, this is creating another layer of progression for our characters. Personally, I would start working on the quests first because it would be a way to double dip for my efforts. A player would not be restricted in doing this, though. If they preferred to only grind faction, that would be their choice, but I feel that having the quest requirement adds another layer of building character reputation. In my opinion, I think an NPC would look more highly upon an individual that helped all of the locals with their storyline woes as opposed to someone who only killed a bunch of the local baddies.
I get that quests should give a different reward from grinding, but putting a limitation on only one of the two option doesn’t seem correct, if you’re going to have both then there should be benefits and downsides to both, not to only one of the options. If grinding is inherently worse than questing, then grinding is the “bad” option and it’s discouraged.
I honestly can’t think of a way to make quests relevant when compared to grinding without making grinding the obvious worst choice. The only way to solve this would be that both options give the same rewards, but I also don’t think that’s the best option.
oneADseven said:Exploration
Can you share your source of this information? I haven't been able to find any official explanation on whether or not an in-game map would be used. I have, however, read multiple threads where players have suggested that they would like to see a mapping feature become available through cartographers. My idea expands on that; each zone would have it's very own cartographer -- with some in more obvious locations than others. If a player goes out of their way to assist the cartographer by sharing their recollection of all of the points of interest, the cartographer would reward them with a map for that zone. I personally would find this type of experience rather rewarding and would go out of my way to find the cartographer in every zone and assist them in their map-making endeavors. The regional cartographer only expands on the idea further. If someone is able to acquire a map for each zone in a given region, the regional cartographer would be willing to teach them how to scribe custom notations on each zone map within their given region.
I posted on this topic today and Kilsin replied, it’s not directly on the in-game map topic but he answered anyway, but I remember hearing the devs talking about it in one of the streams, they said they don’t want an in-game map, but the players are free to use websites and such to navigate through the world.
edit: link - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5316/new-map-of-terminus
oneADseven said:Combat
I) Creature Mastery: The Creature Curator in each major city offers to teach adventurers a powerful ability should they prove themselves worthy. They are granted a ring that siphons the essence of every creature killed (assuming they have an actual mob-type distinction) -- the ring will glow noticeably should they slay an adequate amount of a given creature type, signaling that they should revisit the Curator.
Requirements:
1A) -- Defeat 10,000 level appropriate NPC's of the same mob type. (IE, Skeletons, Goblins, Giants, Kobolds -- will use skeletons as example)
2A) -- Can scale .1 for grey, .5 for green, .75 for blue, 1 for white, 1.25 for yellow, 1.5 for orange, 2 for red, 3 for epic cons.
Rewards: (Choose 1)
1B) -- Skeleton Smite: Attack only useable on skeletons. Moderate damage, 60 second cooldown.
2B) -- Skeleton Resistance: Temporary defensive buff vs skeletons. 10% damage reduction, 15 second duration, 90 second cooldown.
3B) -- Skeleton Blight: Debuff only useable on skeletons. Attack speed / Resistances lowered by 10%, 15 second duration, 90 second cooldown.
4B) -- Skeleton Facade: Self-cast illusion spell that turns user into a skeleton. User becomes nonaggro to non-boss skeletons, 15 second duration, 5 minute cooldown.
This is a thing in another game. Trying to remember what game that was. But for me, it's a no. This ends up just adding more button bloat and isn't worth the hassle. Classes are unique so let's not homogonize them by giving everyone the same abilities.
oneADseven said:Local Duties
I) Talk of the Town: Tavern Bartenders or Lodge Hosts will offer perks to adventurers who make a name for themselves with the locals.
Requirements:
1A) -- Complete X amount of quests given by local area NPC's.
2A) -- Earn X amount of faction within a local area.
Rewards:
1B) -- 50% discount on food or beverage purchased at local establishment (Both would be consumed instantly and offer a limited duration stat buff to prevent resale value issues)
2B) -- 50% discount on lodging services purchased at local establishment (Would provide limited duration buff that increases out of combat mana/health regen)
Regional Duties
I) Look Who's Talkin' Now: Major city merchants will offer perks to adventurers who have made a name for themselves within all of the local areas of a specific region.
Requirements:
1A) -- Complete X amount of quests within each local area of a region. (X can vary from area to area depending on quest volume)
2A) -- Earn X amount of faction with all of the local areas of a given region.
Rewards:
1B) -- New merchandise becomes available to purchase from various merchant types.
2B) -- Merchants pay 5% more for any goods sold to them.
The game, as far as I know, is not abot questing. Yes there will be quests and there will be ways to raise faction but requiring X number of quests from areas would be difficult here. What's the method of judging where a quest comes from anyway? Is it where you pick the quest up? Turn in? Since most won't be even in the same area. Lowbie ones around town, maybe, but most quests will span multiple zones, or so they should.
oneADseven said:Exploration
I) Cartography Lesson:
-- Local Cartographers offer an improved local (zone) map to explorers that can help them with their work. The explorer's recollection of various points of interest in a zone are critical for the cartographer to complete a new and improved version of the local map.
-- Regional Cartographers offer to teach explorers how to scribe custom notations on each local (zone) map within their region, such as starring the location of a rare NPC, or favorite campsite.
Requirements
1A) -- Successfully explore all points of interest within a zone.
2A) -- Successfully explore all points of interest within a region.
Rewards
1B) -- Player is rewarded with an upgraded map for a specific zone, complete with various locally accepted Points of Interest.
2B) -- Player gains the ability to customize the local maps of a given region on the fly by scribing various symbols to notate personal PoI's ($ for farm spot, ! for rare NPC, * for resource location, etc)
Cartography isn't going to be a thing. It's already been stated there will only be a world map and not individual zone maps.
I'm all for achievement type systems as they give something to shoot for but none of them should be tied to gains other than maybe titles, faction, gold, mounts ... mostly stuff that doesn't make something become mandatory.
I just don't understand why people keep saying that this is forced, or mandatory, or rigid. It's completely optional. Do you go on the crafting forum and tell people that their ideas to improve the crafting system would feel too forced or rigid? When the raiding forum comes out will you go there and talk about how raiding shouldn't be in the game because it's forced or mandatory? Are quests flexible? How is a standard quest in the game optional, where something like this would be forced? Would it be okay for me to go to the lore forums and suggest that I really hope lore isn't mentioned in the game because I would be forced to read it? I just can't seem to relate to anybody who feels that way at all. The foundation of this idea is based on optional progression opportunities.
oneADseven said:I just don't understand why people keep saying that this is forced, or mandatory, or rigid. It's completely optional. Do you go on the crafting forum and tell people that their ideas to improve the crafting system would feel too forced or rigid? When the raiding forum comes out will you go there and talk about how raiding shouldn't be in the game because it's forced or mandatory? Are quests flexible? How is a standard quest in the game optional, where something like this would be forced? Would it be okay for me to go to the lore forums and suggest that I really hope lore isn't mentioned in the game because I would be forced to read it? I just can't seem to relate to anybody who feels that way at all. The foundation of this idea is based on optional progression opportunities.
I think it is because rewarding skills/advantages for doing these things either means the skill is going to be useless so what's the point or strong enough to be too important to not do. They could also take away some small bit from other classes, such as undead smite.
So the answer to your questions is twofold: first, where players can obtain power they will seek it, and if there is a huge amount of power behind specific grinds (if not individually then cumulatively) those grinds become the entire game. The second is that the things you're comparing to: lore, crafting, etc., are a) staples of the genre, whereas this system is not, and b) those systems don't force players to participate in them just by their existence. You can skip all dialogue and still clear whatever story mission bars you entry, and you can just buy any crafted gear by doing anything else in the game for money. The biggest problem is that your suggestion is just way too expansive. The current proposal affects every area of the game! I hate systems like this because it's like a laundry list saying "you could do things other than those on this list, but you're wasting your time by not doing these". In the end it's even worse than quests in modern games because at least there the rewards are fungible.
Lets use the 10k skeletons as an example: I assume your goal is to incentivize killing skeletons. In your example I can kill any skeleton, so if the smite is useful I'm just going to train a low level zone to get it over with, as will most people probably.
Instead, why not have skeletons have relevant (say +- 25%) weaknesses to blunt, light and fire damage, and resistances to piercing, slashing and dark damage. As a result, a party with a paladin, cleric and a monk might strongly consider skeletons as an exp target if they're the right level range. With a warrior, Druid and rogue, they might target something else. Propagate these profiles across a wide variety of monsters, add in climate and typical ai dispositions and suddenly you've made a system that encourages people to diversify targets without enforcing an arbitrary number.
Mod Edit: Consolidated double post.
oneADseven said:I just don't understand why people keep saying that this is forced, or mandatory, or rigid. It's completely optional. Do you go on the crafting forum and tell people that their ideas to improve the crafting system would feel too forced or rigid? When the raiding forum comes out will you go there and talk about how raiding shouldn't be in the game because it's forced or mandatory? Are quests flexible? How is a standard quest in the game optional, where something like this would be forced? Would it be okay for me to go to the lore forums and suggest that I really hope lore isn't mentioned in the game because I would be forced to read it? I just can't seem to relate to anybody who feels that way at all. The foundation of this idea is based on optional progression opportunities.
I agree that this argument against your idea is not sound. Benefits are gained from participating in a type of gaming. Raiding benefits come from raiding. Crafting benefits come from crafting. Grinding benefits come from grinding. Your feats would just be another benefit that comes from another type of gaming, but is discrete and location specific.
Raiding is not a "natural" behavior that develops organically in the gameworld. It's a behavior that develops because benefits are placed behind it. If raiding did not provide benefits, then only some players would participate in it for the novelty. Exploration of the world does not yield distcint benefits, and so some only participate in it for the novelty. Some people disagree with having raiding in MMOs because they don't like the type of gameplay it requires, not because it's inorganic and locks benefits behind walls. All benefits are locked behind walls.
Another argument that doesn't apply is "why do I get better at 10,000 skeletons?" There are arbitrary lines drawn all over games. Why does my character instantaneously gain the ability to cast resurrect after reaching 1.75 million experience, but 1 experience point before that it is beyond my ability to comprehend? Your forum-level concept should not be held to a higher standard than existing mechanics that are as fundamental as levelling.
That said, LOTRO had a similar system where achievements were doled out for a laundry list of tasks and it did indeed feel like a chore to me. I would like to see a system that gets people out into the world and exploring/hunting in all the nooks and crannies, really appreciating the entirety of the world. I feel like that would be a result of your idea to some degree, but I would like to see a different take on the implementation.
For those who haven't read it already, Brad had a great blog post about grinding here. I think after reading that it will become pretty clear that considering 'grinding' to be a sphere of gameplay such as 'adventuring,' 'tradeskilling,' or 'diplomacy' is not going to be a thing in Pantheon.
edit: I should probably clarify that I'm not saying that grinding won't be a thing in Pantheon. In the end accomplishing many things in Pantheon is probably going to require some sort of grind. But from a design point of view, a lot of effort is going into making that grind... well, less 'grindy.' Having a bunch of tasks that just simply say: "go do this 5,000 times for a reward" goes against that design philosophy.
oneADseven said:I just don't understand why people keep saying that this is forced, or mandatory, or rigid. It's completely optional. Do you go on the crafting forum and tell people that their ideas to improve the crafting system would feel too forced or rigid? When the raiding forum comes out will you go there and talk about how raiding shouldn't be in the game because it's forced or mandatory? Are quests flexible? How is a standard quest in the game optional, where something like this would be forced? Would it be okay for me to go to the lore forums and suggest that I really hope lore isn't mentioned in the game because I would be forced to read it? I just can't seem to relate to anybody who feels that way at all. The foundation of this idea is based on optional progression opportunities.
it's not really optional when it gives character proggression, that said, you could say everything is mandatory, in a way you're right, but if something gives a relevant power increase it should be hard, because if it's not, it becomes a check list of chores that you need to complete.
Crafting is not mandatory, you have the option to buy.
Raids fall under what i said above, it's a challange that rewards you accordingly.
Lore is optional i can skip all the text and just check a guide.
Jimmayus said: So the answer to your questions is twofold: first, where players can obtain power they will seek it, and if there is a huge amount of power behind specific grinds (if not individually then cumulatively) those grinds become the entire game. The second is that the things you're comparing to: lore, crafting, etc., are a) staples of the genre, whereas this system is not, and b) those systems don't force players to participate in them just by their existence. You can skip all dialogue and still clear whatever story mission bars you entry, and you can just buy any crafted gear by doing anything else in the game for money. The biggest problem is that your suggestion is just way too expansive. The current proposal affects every area of the game! I hate systems like this because it's like a laundry list saying "you could do things other than those on this list, but you're wasting your time by not doing these". In the end it's even worse than quests in modern games because at least there the rewards are fungible.
"So the answer to your questions is twofold: first, where players can obtain power they will seek it, and if there is a huge amount of power behind specific grinds (if not individually then cumulatively) those grinds become the entire game."
Huge amount of power? What? Where? Can you cite one of the rewards that I proposed that gives a huge amount of power? Are you suggesting that cumulatively they would be a huge amount of power? So what about the rest of the game? Isn't the idea behind progression to allow players to accumulate power?
"The second is that the things you're comparing to: lore, crafting, etc., are a) staples of the genre, whereas this system is not, and b) those systems don't force players to participate in them just by their existence. You can skip all dialogue and still clear whatever story mission bars you entry, and you can just buy any crafted gear by doing anything else in the game for money."
My idea doesen't force you to do anything based on it's existence. You can still kill skeletons without having a smite ability. You can still buy/food beverage without getting a discount. So what about raiding and questing then? How can you acquire raid gear without raiding? How can you acquire quest items without questing? You mention that this concept isn't a staple of the genre, and to that I would say so what? Here is an excerpt from the very first section of "The Pantheon Difference" titled "An MMO evolved" -- "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime."
"Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs."
Sounds like VR is trying to evolve the genre, not necessarily stick to the staples of games from the past. They are implementing new features that have never been experienced in prior games. With that vision in mind, I daresay that it's perfectly okay for me to propose a new idea or concept for consideration.
"You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it."
The core principles of my idea are based on earning a reputation in the game. Our character's reputation should extend well beyond how they are perceived by other players; if my characters becomes a master tradesman, I would want him to be acknowledged and treated as such by NPC's that are involved in trade. If my character goes out of his way to help all of the local residents of a small town, he should be the talk of the town, and NPC's should treat him as such. Much like law enforcement, firefighters or medical personel receive perks in the real world, I would want my character to enjoy some of those perks in Terminus.
"You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides."
Spending meaningful time in each area ... how is this defined? If my character visits a small town, I would like an incentive to spend some meaningful time there. Why else would I? With most games, you hurry up and finish all of the quests and then you move on. With my idea, you are encouraged to not only complete all of the quests, but also build faction with small settlements. Should you be passing by in the future, you can take advantage of the perks you earned earlier on in the game such as enjoying a discounted meal or a stay at the lodge. The more settlements you have earned a positive reputation with, the more places you get to feel like a king while you travel.
"You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer."
This suggests that you will NEED endurance, among other things, to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. Thankfully, I have plenty of that. For those who do not, you might not be able to enjoy some of the perks or features of the game that I do. I am making a choice to endure through the thick and the thin to experience all that Terminus has to offer ... you are not "forced" to do the same.
Ainadak said:oneADseven said:I just don't understand why people keep saying that this is forced, or mandatory, or rigid. It's completely optional. Do you go on the crafting forum and tell people that their ideas to improve the crafting system would feel too forced or rigid? When the raiding forum comes out will you go there and talk about how raiding shouldn't be in the game because it's forced or mandatory? Are quests flexible? How is a standard quest in the game optional, where something like this would be forced? Would it be okay for me to go to the lore forums and suggest that I really hope lore isn't mentioned in the game because I would be forced to read it? I just can't seem to relate to anybody who feels that way at all. The foundation of this idea is based on optional progression opportunities.
I agree that this argument against your idea is not sound. Benefits are gained from participating in a type of gaming. Raiding benefits come from raiding. Crafting benefits come from crafting. Grinding benefits come from grinding. Your feats would just be another benefit that comes from another type of gaming, but is discrete and location specific.
Raiding is not a "natural" behavior that develops organically in the gameworld. It's a behavior that develops because benefits are placed behind it. If raiding did not provide benefits, then only some players would participate in it for the novelty. Exploration of the world does not yield distcint benefits, and so some only participate in it for the novelty. Some people disagree with having raiding in MMOs because they don't like the type of gameplay it requires, not because it's inorganic and locks benefits behind walls. All benefits are locked behind walls.
Another argument that doesn't apply is "why do I get better at 10,000 skeletons?" There are arbitrary lines drawn all over games. Why does my character instantaneously gain the ability to cast resurrect after reaching 1.75 million experience, but 1 experience point before that it is beyond my ability to comprehend? Your forum-level concept should not be held to a higher standard than existing mechanics that are as fundamental as levelling.
That said, LOTRO had a similar system where achievements were doled out for a laundry list of tasks and it did indeed feel like a chore to me. I would like to see a system that gets people out into the world and exploring/hunting in all the nooks and crannies, really appreciating the entirety of the world. I feel like that would be a result of your idea to some degree, but I would like to see a different take on the implementation.
Help me think of a better way for it to be implemented. If people think I'm obsessed with having a laundry list for the sake of doing laundry, they are wrong. I want the game to encourage me to get out into the world and see all that it has to offer. I want all NPC's to have meaning, whether they are friendly or not. I want my character to have an impact on the environment, to be acknowledged for the choices he makes whether they are good or bad. I care far more about the rewards that I have mentioned in this post than the requirements to get them. My goal since the beginning of sharing this idea was to make it absolutely clear that I want there to be as many ways for me to advance my character's power as possible. You could scrap the "Kill X amount of Skeleton" idea and replace it with the mob-type mastery system from EQ2. I enjoyed that system. I want there to be "extra" rewards or incentives for those who have the endurance to earn them. While some people view all of this as "mandantory" content I view it as "bonus" content and that pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
@oneADseven
Let’s just agree to disagree.
I believe a system does not need to be implemented to hand out rewards for doing things of a check list.
The game will still rewards for what you do, but it won’t be because you did X amount of quests, or killed X amount of mobs. The game will rewards with its core mechanics, gear, rep, xp and money. That gives the player the freedom to whatever he feels is needed.
All the things you suggested will (likely) be implemented in the game, but in a more passive way, you will get them by playing the game, and not having to do specific tasks.
oneADseven said:Help me think of a better way for it to be implemented. If people think I'm obsessed with having a laundry list for the sake of doing laundry, they are wrong. I want the game to encourage me to get out into the world and see all that it has to offer. I want all NPC's to have meaning, whether they are friendly or not. I want my character to have an impact on the environment, to be acknowledged for the choices he makes whether they are good or bad. I care far more about the rewards that I have mentioned in this post than the requirements to get them. My goal since the beginning of sharing this idea was to make it absolutely clear that I want there to be as many ways for me to advance my character's power as possible. You could scrap the "Kill X amount of Skeleton" idea and replace it with the mob-type mastery system from EQ2. I enjoyed that system. I want there to be "extra" rewards or incentives for those who have the endurance to earn them. While some people view all of this as "mandantory" content I view it as "bonus" content and that pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
Ironically, I agree 100% with wanting to have reasons to go out into the world. But we all have a reason. The same one that has always been around and will always be, to progress your character. Everything you do in the game is to push the progression bar forward, whether that is killing mobs for xp or for loot. Whether it's doing a quest or grinding for faction. Everything pushes it forward. Adding in systems that further push the benefit aren't a needed reason to go into the world. Sure it may give you a task to focus on but what makes that task different from camping a named for that relic?
Like I said I am all for a system like this. Maybe not using your examples but a similar system would be good. Hell I'd do all the quests I could find to get a discount or increase in vendor prices. I just do not want it tied to a universal benefit. Achievements should be an accomplishment but it shouldn't provide something that is a benefit to all. This is why I like titles for them. They aren't needed but when you see a rare one you know that person went out of their way to do it. It gives you recognition, not added boosts to farm.
I think by the very nature of the game we will have plenty to do and to progress without even needing such a system. VR has also said that they dont have any current plans for even an AA feature. So I dont see them adding this either. I believe they intend to focus on skill ups and stats. Stats coming mainly from levels and gear. And accumulating situational gear will be sort of an achievement in itself as it will gain you access to auras and atmospheres.
jpedrote said:@oneADseven
Let’s just agree to disagree.
I believe a system does not need to be implemented to hand out rewards for doing things of a check list.
The game will still rewards for what you do, but it won’t be because you did X amount of quests, or killed X amount of mobs. The game will rewards with its core mechanics, gear, rep, xp and money. That gives the player the freedom to whatever he feels is needed.
All the things you suggested will (likely) be implemented in the game, but in a more passive way, you will get them by playing the game, and not having to do specific tasks.
Fair enough, I agree to disagree with you sir. I don't see how you can tell me what the game will or will not do, or how things will be implemented, though. That's an assumption. The "Rites of Passage" is a thing. Do you have a solid understanding of how it works? Until we know, I caution all of the people who are dead set against my idea (because of forced tasks, mandatory goals, etc) to hold their horses. My understanding is that it's VR's version of an achievement system. I searched "Rites of Passage" on the forum and here is a partial excerpt on what's available:
"During the latest Round Table on 1.18.15 Brad and the others talk heavily about the Achievement System(now called the rites of passage). One of the comments was that there might be 10-20 tasks and you may have to complete any five during your time at your current tier to move on to the next tier.
While this sounds like a whole lot of awesome, I feel that there is a possible pitfall with letting people choose. People will compile which tasks are easiest and then stick to those and avoid the others, thereby bypassing/invalidating the content created.
To remedy this, I thought that perhaps tasks could be based on your class or randomly decided by the system. This way there is no avoiding the tasks that the team worked so hard to design and implement.
Yes I know this sounds like forcing a player to do something to advance, and maybe with my take on it, it is. But most players in my 16 years of MMO experience will in fact avoid what they can to make leveling as easy as possible(I myself have been... "
Found this on one of the roundtable summaries:
"- Achievement system – Every so many levels complete a task, talk to an NPC, explore a region, explore a dungeon and take out a boss or find a rare item, it could be any number of things but they get you to experience this world full of content/lore…there has been discussion on renaming this to "Rites of Passage" and the discussion continues on the forums."
While I understand that some of you may not be particularly thrilled about the idea behind the concept, I for one am estatic, and am very anxiously awaiting for an update on how this system will work.
oneADseven said:"During the latest Round Table on 1.18.15 Brad and the others talk heavily about the Achievement System(now called the rites of passage). One of the comments was that there might be 10-20 tasks and you may have to complete any five during your time at your current tier to move on to the next tier.
Yes and this is a good idea. I can back this idea. Having to complete tasks to move on sure. But we aren't completing tasks to get random boosts.
Let's look at your examples and see if I can poke holes ...
So the skele illusion also makes you non aggro to skeles for 15 seconds? Now say a raid consists of many skeles. What I would do is require the raid to have it. Then have a monk go round up everything to the boss we are racing to. The whole raid passes by the mass with no deaths at all and no effort. Yea it's not a likely situation but even those 'little' things can have a very huge impact. Hence the reason I say they should only be cosmetic.
Amsai said: The rites of passage idea is to be tested in alpha/beta. So it's not a sure thing yet. FFXI had a very similar kind of system. What I would hope for is a series of mini epic quests. Nothing too easy. A real test of your class knowledge and skills. But I wouldn't call something like that an achievement system and it doesn't net you boons or buffs. Just permission to continue the journey. That's my take and wish for rights or passage. But something left for later during testing.
The fact that it's going to be tested in alpha or beta is about as surefire of a thing as we can get right now. I'm just pointing out that the RoP is, as far as we know, some sort of achievement system. I think it's best to embrace the idea of a potential achievement system and try to think of ideas to make it as fun/interesting as possible.
Enitzu said:oneADseven said:"During the latest Round Table on 1.18.15 Brad and the others talk heavily about the Achievement System(now called the rites of passage). One of the comments was that there might be 10-20 tasks and you may have to complete any five during your time at your current tier to move on to the next tier.
Yes and this is a good idea. I can back this idea. Having to complete tasks to move on sure. But we aren't completing tasks to get random boosts.
Let's look at your examples and see if I can poke holes ...
So the skele illusion also makes you non aggro to skeles for 15 seconds? Now say a raid consists of many skeles. What I would do is require the raid to have it. Then have a monk go round up everything to the boss we are racing to. The whole raid passes by the mass with no deaths at all and no effort. Yea it's not a likely situation but even those 'little' things can have a very huge impact. Hence the reason I say they should only be cosmetic.
Hah! Nice try. I said it wouldn't work against non-boss skeletons. That could easily be applied to epic skeletons as well. I have mentioned multiple times in my posts that the requirements/rewards are just placeholders. They are just there to help get a conversation going. Nothing is set in stone. In this case though ... I already thought of that issue and attempted to deal with it preemptively. There is no need to poke holes in my idea. Share your own ideas or find ways to improve those that I have shared. I don't understand why people want to beat it into the ground lol ...
oneADseven said:Hah! Nice try. I said it wouldn't work against non-boss skeletons. That could easily be applied to epic skeletons as well. I have mentioned multiple times in my posts that the requirements/rewards are just placeholders. They are just there to help get a conversation going. Nothing is set in stone. In this case though ... I already thought of that issue and attempted to deal with it preemptively. There is no need to poke holes in my idea. Share your own ideas or find ways to improve those that I have shared. I don't understand why people want to beat it into the ground lol ...
So why are you against just gaining cosmetic things like titles/mounts for achievements? Honestly don't even think the game needs an achievement system at all.
Enitzu said:oneADseven said:Hah! Nice try. I said it wouldn't work against non-boss skeletons. That could easily be applied to epic skeletons as well. I have mentioned multiple times in my posts that the requirements/rewards are just placeholders. They are just there to help get a conversation going. Nothing is set in stone. In this case though ... I already thought of that issue and attempted to deal with it preemptively. There is no need to poke holes in my idea. Share your own ideas or find ways to improve those that I have shared. I don't understand why people want to beat it into the ground lol ...
So why are you against just gaining cosmetic things like titles/mounts for achievements? Honestly don't even think the game needs an achievement system at all.
For me, it's simple. Risk vs reward. Achievements are generally much more difficult than your average quest ... why shouldn't we be properly rewarded for the accomplishment? They always felt like such a huge time sink to me. That's my main gripe. I would actually enjoy working on achievements if there was power to be gained ... some sort of progression. Titles or mounts don't have the same effect on me as other people I guess. I would much rather have a small permanent gain in power than something cosmetic. If I am trying to impress someone ... I want to do it with my ability to tank a dungeon or raid, navigate through a maze, not wow them with my fancy title or a shiny object.