S Terminus Coliseum S
"Give me somewhere to stand, and I will move the earth." - Archimedes
The Terminus Coliseum is a privately owned establishment that was founded by the infamous hunter Krazekiel. After a lifetime of relentless exploration and successful hunting campaigns, Krazekiel was determined to cement his legacy into the very heart of Terminus. Having enjoyed the many tastes of victory from his lifework of monster wrangling, Krazekiel knew that there were very few pleasures that could compare to the euphoric rush one feels as they deliver the killing blow to a mighty beast. For Krazekiel, one of those pleasures was the idea of sharing his experiences with as many ambitious adventurers as possible. If only it were possible to relive the thrill of the hunt with every promising traveler he crossed paths with ... if only. This pursuit of happiness began to take a toll on him as he realized that there was only so much one man could do, only so many places he could be at a given time. The hardships of this adversity felt like pandemonium in his mind, having exhausted every idea imaginable, it felt as if he would never achieve his greater purpose. And then it happened ... after weeks of being tormented by this self inflicted mental chaos, he had a very important moment of clarity. In that moment, he had an epiphany ... an epiphany that would change his life forever, and lead to the eventual construction of the Terminus Coliseum.
Having had a lifetime worth of far-reaching expeditions, he had created meaningful relationships with a large network of people that was comprised of every known civilized race on the planet of Terminus. What better way to unite the hunting community than to create a neutral, diverse, and undivided council with a single ambassador from each race? While the Terminus Coliseum was being built, Krazekiel traveled the world to find the perfect candidates to appoint to his council. After years of searching, he had finally accomplished the task; he appointed 9 different council members who would act as a delegate to share his vision with their people. And so it was declared, the Newfound Nine; a board of 9 that would adminster the affairs of Krazekiel. Each member would return to their homecity and begin a campaign to help educate their people on what the Coliseum was, where it was, and what would be expected of them should they venture there. They also directly assisted Krazekiel in capturing the various trophy monsters that populated their region. Upon capture, Krazekiel would imprison these monsters and bring them back to the Coliseum. He would take them below ground and breed them in captivity, creating a literal army of some of the world's most frightening creatures.
Okay ... now that we have some lore out of the way, I'd like to discuss how the Coliseum would actually operate in the game. It would be a standalone building somewhat centralized in the world of Terminus, and would allow hunter enthusiasts a chance to do battle with some of the fiercest creatures known to inhabit the world of Terminus. The Coliseum would have it's own privately funded mercenary army that would be considered neutrally aligned with all of the races in the game, and be responsible for protecting the interests of their establishment. This would range from protecting their citadel from potential invaders, maintaining the monsters in captivity, and dealing with any troublesome outsiders that would bring shame to their socially unbiased environment.
Adventurers who make their way to the Coliseum would be offered a chance to battle with some of the creatures in their monster breeding program, but only if they possess a Coliseum Ticket. There are 8 tickets in total, and they are spread far and wide over the entire realm of Terminus. Each of the 8 tickets are representative of a specific monster and would be considered a no-trade item. They would all be in the games world-wide loot table and have a small chance to drop from rare named NPC's that are group con and level 40 or higher. They would have a very small chance of dropping from any rare named NPC that is below group con but still level 40 or higher. Finally, they would have an ultra rare chance of dropping from any level 40 or higher creature in the game.
After the ticket is redeemed, a group will be allowed to enter one of the various arena fields hosted inside of the Coliseum. Some of the encounters may be locked to a specific arena setting, and some might be shared across several. Upon entering, a group will have 10 minutes to lay waste to their summoned monster. Other than killing the monster, there would also be 3 possible bonus objectives that can be achieved. The reward for killing the monster would vary, depending on how many bonus objectives were successfully completed. Lorewise, these bonus objectives could be something that Krazekiel admires. As a master hunter, he would show special appreciation to those capable of slaying the monsters while adhering to some of the highly technical objectives that make the battle more challenging.
Let's say, for example, that a group ends up killing the monster but failing all bonus objectives. Their reward would be the lowest tier possible such as a consumable or a non-equippable item that can be sacrificed to the Gods. If they complete 1 bonus objective, the reward could scale to a moderately good piece of tradeable resist jewelry or something equivalent. If they complete 2 bonus objectives, they would receive both of the lower tier rewards and a % chance to loot a Coliseum voucher. This voucher can be used to purchase really good gear directly from the Coliseum. If they beat all 3 bonus objectives the entire group receives both of the lower tier rewards, and one person receives the voucher. It's up to the group to decide who gets the voucher.
This allows more players to enjoy the content and get something of value even if they aren't quite capable of completing all of the bonus objectives. It also gives them something to work towards. Completing 2 bonus objectives should be very challenging and provide a real sense of achievement, and the chance to get a voucher seems pretty commesurate with the difficulty of the task. Completing all of the bonus objectives should require an extremely coordinated group that has extensive prior experience with the encounter. It should require perfect execution and allow no room for error. The idea behind rewarding a voucher instead of actual loot is to ensure that someone in the group is properly rewarded. It would be a pretty rotten feeling when a group completes all 3 bonus objectives for the first time and the only drop ends up being something the group couldn't use or didn't need.
I will list some of my ideas for potential creatures that could be found in the Coliseum, as well as some of the bonus objectives for each fight. I use the 5 minute speed objective on all of them because I feel it's a great way to add an extra layer of intensity to every fight. Beyond that, there are 2 other bonus objectives that will vary from creature to creature. There are plenty of ways to incorporate bonus objectives into these fights, and if anybody has an idea they would like to share, please feel free to post your input and I might use it for one of the fights. As of right now the list is not entirely complete, but I will continue to edit this post as I have time to work on it.
Coliseum Ticket: Hellfire Hydra -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Hellfire Hydra.
Bonus Objective 1 (Precision): Defeat the Hellfire Hydra within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat all 3 heads within 15 seconds of the first one killed.
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Hellfire Hydra with no more than 1 person being hit by it's Hellfire ability. (Tank should be the only one to get hit. Hellfire ability would do frontal cone AE damage in the direction each head is facing.)
Coliseum Ticket: The Abomination -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against The Abomination.
Bonus Objective 1 (Precision): Defeat the Abomination within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat the Abomination and at least 3 of it's hemorrhaging spawnlings. (Mezzable adds.)
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Abomination without curing it's putrid bile debuff. (Debuff lowers poison/disease resist, deals poison/disease damage on successful melee attacks.)
Coliseum Ticket: Goblin Horde -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Goblin Horde.
Bonus Objective (Precision)1: Defeat the Goblin Horde within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat the entire Goblin Horde with the exception of the priests. (Priests can self-cure mezz, but will flee when the rest of the horde is vanquished.)
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Goblin Horde without using a single AE ability. (Horde could consist of 10 total goblins: 2 Warriors, 2 Brigands, 2 Goblin Hounds, 2 Priests, 1 Goblin Hound Master, 1 Goblin Warchief.)
Coliseum Ticket: Arch Lich -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Arch Lich.
Bonus Objective 1 (Precision): Defeat the Arch Lich within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat the Arch Lich without getting hit by it's Ghastly Paralysis ability. (Short radius point blank AE, casts on self, 2.5 second casting time. Cannot be interrupted.)
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Arch Lich without curing Spectral Curse. (Large AoE movement speed reduction, has small chance to stun player every time they move.)
Coliseum Ticket: Nightmare Wisp -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Nightmare Wisp.
Bonus Objective 1(Precision): Defeat the Nightmare Wisp within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat the Nightmare Wisp without using See Invis (Nightmare Wisp will periodically go invis and move to another location in the arena, healing for a moderate amount before becoming visible again)
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Nightmare Wisp without the use of any acclimation buff/debuff or any environmental effects. (Nightmare Wisp has very high magic resists due to a built-in arcane shield and elemental blessing.)
Coliseum Ticket: Galactic Siren -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Galactic Siren.
Bonus Objective 1(Precision): Defeat the Galactic Siren within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2: Defeat the Galactic Siren while 3 or more of your group members are charmed. (Charm is cast on 1 random group member, has unlimited duration, 90 second cooldown between casts.)
Bonus Objective 3: Defeat the Galactic Siren while she is under the effect of her Star Speakers Blessing self buff. (Star Speakers Blessing provides a moderate HoT, increased resistances, a % chance to stun any character that hits her with a melee attack, and a % chance to reflect any spell cast. Star Speakers Blessing can be dispelled. She will recast self buff at every 1 minute interval throughout the fight.)
Coliseum Ticket: Triterrordon -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Triterrordon.
Bonus Objective 1 (Precision): Defeat the Triterrordon within 5 minutes of initiating combat.
Bonus Objective 2:
Coliseum Ticket: Efreeti -- can be redeemed at the Terminus Coliseum to grant your group a single attempt against the Efreeti.
As far as the Coliseum itself goes, I think it would be pretty cool to allow spectators. If overcrowding or the demand to participate in the battles becomes too high, consider adding multiple arenas with different settings. (Certain encounters might share the same arena) Due to the nature of bonus objectives, it would probably be ideal to have a few different arena setups anyway (environmental/acclimation effects?). Personally, I think the Coliseum would be a pretty cool place to hang out at max level. Even if you don't have a ticket, there is always a chance that a group might need your services and be willing to let you fill a spot in their group. This wouldn't have to be instanced content. All bosses would be force-popped upon entering one of the arenas and there would be a timer to complete the battle. The point of the timer is to ensure that other groups also have a chance to participate. (A separate timer could be used as a bonus objective. Let's say the standard timer per attempt is 10 minutes. Defeating the encounter in less than 5 minutes is an example of a possible bonus objective.) I think people would be able to enjoy a special kind of thrill as they watch other players attempt these battles. As I mentioned earlier, the greatest victory would come from completing all 3 bonus objectives on a given fight, and that would be pretty intense to watch. Those that claim the ultimate victory would be congratulated by all in attendance and should cherish their moment of fame on the grandest of stages.
Finally, I'm going to highlight some of the features/tenets of this game that helped inspire this idea:
An awareness that content is king.
A commitment to a style of play that focuses on immersive combat, and engaging group mechanics.
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
A mindset that some degree of downtime should be part of a game, ensuring players have time to form important social bonds.
A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
Battle the harsh climates of the world—it can, and will, affect your character.
Immerse yourself in group-focused, intensely social game play using classes that complement each other, encouraging teamwork.
** Will continue to edit post as I further expand on some of the ideas/concepts.
It could definitely be interesting. It sounds vaguely "LDoN-ish" but I also agree that it could be used to great effect. I think you would have to consider the open-world nature of the game and the availability of these arena challengers... could group after group after group go in? Or would there be select times when it's open?
The problem I have with systems like this is that it ends up being percieved as the easiest, most predictable way to gear up your character. The result is people doing absolutely nothing for weeks at a time other than redoing essentially the same thing over and over and over and over again purely to get the best gear they can thru the system. I'm remembering the WoW battlegrounds and the honor system, where you would run the same 4-5 battlegrounds all night every night. Focus shifted entirely for literally millions of people from exploration to PVP, even on the PVE servers. And it shifted the dynamics of the entire server's population. Now picture that in a game where socialization and group content is the focus, and you've got a situation in which people that have no desire for PVP are left with fewer grouping options because more of the population is engaged in a PVP grind.
It's a comparison because it is essentially the same result. If you have a system in which people are rewarded in any predictable way then they will do nothing but that to attain the reward. Instead of people going out into the gameworld, finding a group, and tackling content, a percentage of them will instead click "enter" into the next availble coliseum event. Over and over and over again, until they have exhausted the rewards it grants. The percentage of people doing so will scale according to the max rewards available.
[edit] and yes, I did read the idea of having an NPC dropped token that you had to redeem. I guess I just dont see the point. If you have an rare, or ultra-rare token drop, why not a gear upgrade that would be granted by entering the coliseum?
Feyshtey said:It's a comparison because it is essentially the same result. If you have a system in which people are rewarded in any predictable way then they will do nothing but that to attain the reward. Instead of people going out into the gameworld, finding a group, and tackling content, a percentage of them will instead click "enter" into the next availble coliseum event. Over and over and over again, until they have exhausted the rewards it grants. The percentage of people doing so will scale according to the max rewards available.
[edit] and yes, I did read the idea of having an NPC dropped token that you had to redeem. I guess I just dont see the point. If you have an rare, or ultra-rare token drop, why not a gear upgrade that would be granted by entering the coliseum?
You aren't just granted an award upon entering the coliseum, you have to earn it. You also wouldn't want to just spam enter the Coliseum every time you get a ticket either because the encounters would be very challenging and require a great deal of preparation. You wouldn't spend your tickets for the sake of spending them ... you'll want to form the best possible group you can to ensure that you don't waste your ticket for nothing. The tickets should be very valuable, so valuable that you would consider it an honor if a friend asks you to join his group for an entry into the Coliseum. This means they trust you to fulfill your role in the group. One weak link or costly mistake during battle and that ticket is gone forever. You shouldn't see people running PUG's for the Coliseum that often. There is too much at stake.
"If you have a system in which people are rewarded in any predictable way then they will do nothing but that to attain the reward."
Wouldn't dungeon crawling, raiding, crafting and harvesting all fall into this same category? Doing any of these things consistently can yield a predictable reward, and that's why people do them.
"Instead of people going out into the gameworld, finding a group, and tackling content, a percentage of them will instead click "enter" into the next availble coliseum event."
I believe the opposite to be true. In order for people to gain admission into the Coliseum, they'll need to venture out into the gameworld, find a group, and tackle content. By adding this token or ticket to the world loot table, all NPC's would become a bit more relevant in terms of progression opportunity. I think it's a great way to incentivize players to consider revisiting an area that they otherwise may not have due to them already having exhausted any potential gear upgrades that the area could have provided to them.
"Over and over and over again, until they have exhausted the rewards it grants. The percentage of people doing so will scale according to the max rewards available."
That's pretty much the point. I don't see how adding more content to the game and encouraging players to participate in said content is a bad thing. Content is King. The Coliseum could be a great way to add challenging new content to the game while simultaneously adding more value to all of the existing content. Like you said, people will continue to dungeon crawl or raid over and over and over until they have exhausted the reward it grants. By adding a Coliseum ticket to the world loot table, the reward for those activities can never be truly exhausted. It's a great way to add replay value to all forms of adventuring.
I never played Final Fantasy XI, but I do like the whole Burning Circle concept. This sounds like a bigger and more complicated version of that, no? I do understand what Feyshtey is worried about, and I agree that I wouldn't want a situation where you could choose to do nothing but Burning Circle over and over again until you are completely geared. I'm okay with some sort of orbs or phylacteries that are random rare drops and allow you to summon random monsters to fight. I wouldn't want there to be a way that you could sit there and run this over and over without doing some serious orb collecting/hoarding (so no paying money). I guess it could be a way to take some items out of the game if you trade an old piece of gear for a random orb...but that doesn't seem like an appealing option. Why not keep the item you already have in hand? I'm also not sure I'd want the best items in the game to come from it. I'd rather have this be something where you and your friends have all saved a few orbs each over a few weeks and you get together to spend a night killing summoned monsters for some fun and some nice, random, tradeable items.
Feyshtey said:The problem I have with systems like this is that it ends up being percieved as the easiest, most predictable way to gear up your character. The result is people doing absolutely nothing for weeks at a time other than redoing essentially the same thing over and over and over and over again purely to get the best gear they can thru the system. I'm remembering the WoW battlegrounds and the honor system, where you would run the same 4-5 battlegrounds all night every night. Focus shifted entirely for literally millions of people from exploration to PVP, even on the PVE servers. And it shifted the dynamics of the entire server's population. Now picture that in a game where socialization and group content is the focus, and you've got a situation in which people that have no desire for PVP are left with fewer grouping options because more of the population is engaged in a PVP grind.
I agree with these concerns. I think it's a neat idea as maybe a challenge type deal, but I'd rather see these types of challenges in the world. The WoW battlegrounds comment made me think of PvP, and I responded before fully realizing this was talking about PvE stricly (I think?). Regardless, I think this type of system, if it offers rewards, is susceptible to the same problems as a PvP type arena. Although I think options for some type of consentual group PvP on PvE servers in some fashion is a great idea, I am totally against them providing any type of rewards, even cosmetic ones. For the purpose of strict entertainment during downtime? Sure, I'm all for that option. Leave the gear and rewards as mechanics tied to PvE, though.
I like the idea. It would obviously have to have vast restrictions on it to prevent abuse or people 'farming' it but it's doable. Hell if need be it could have a lock out per person that basically says something like "We are currently attempting to find stronger creatures for you to face" when you try to register. The rewards for it would have to be good ones but I'd suggest it not being tied to any gear or spells. Make it potions and cosmetic stuff. Maybe instead of turning in gear, you could pay a small fee to participate and you earn favor that you use to buy items at a vendor. There's a lot you could do here. Just have to keep it in check to prevent abuse
Will be editing the majority of my responses and instead focus on revising the OP. I've had several new ideas on how to improve the concept since the thread started and want to make sure that the first message accurately conveys my vision. Whether you are new to the thread or a returning visitor, please refer to the OP as it has been updated. All input/feedback/questions are welcome!
I'm really trying to give this a fair shot. I really am. And I've thought your description thru a few times. But I'm still failing to really see the point.
If the ticket drop is so rare, then it becoming a spectator event seems unlikely. People arent too likely to travel the length of the world to view a fight that lasts for a few minutes, and they arent likely to break from whatever they are working on, particularly if they are in a dungeon.
If there's a limit to the number of tickets that can be in the populations inventory at any given time, then its ripe for abuse and/or neglect. There will be some players who will hold onto a ticket with glee knowing they are denying someone the ticket, and there will be those who aren't really even sure what the ticket is and it sits in their bank forever going unused. You could mitigate this buy saying that if the ticket is not used in X period (1 week? 1 Month?) then you are putting a shot clock on it so that people have a finite time in which they can get the right group together to attempt the proposed difficulty of the encounter.
More importantly, why? What's the objective? It just seems like a gimmick to me. Every game tennent you cite as supporting this system is equally supported by group content out in the gameworld, with the added benefit of being lore and/or storyline driven. It just seems much more believable and enjoyable to have encounters out in the gameworld that are as challenging as the proposed system intends to be, with equally profitable rewards for succeeding.
And beyond just these factors, I dislike any system that rewards people inequally for just barely pulling off something that might have been technically just out of the realm of feesibility for them, and for those that bring in huge guns and military precision to just blast an encounter to smithereens. If you're capable of not just surviving the encounter, but doing so by overwhelming force, why do you deserve a greater reward? Seems to me it should be the exact opposite.
Feyshtey said:I'm really trying to give this a fair shot. I really am. And I've thought your description thru a few times. But I'm still failing to really see the point.
If the ticket drop is so rare, then it becoming a spectator event seems unlikely. People arent too likely to travel the length of the world to view a fight that lasts for a few minutes, and they arent likely to break from whatever they are working on, particularly if they are in a dungeon.
If there's a limit to the number of tickets that can be in the populations inventory at any given time, then its ripe for abuse and/or neglect. There will be some players who will hold onto a ticket with glee knowing they are denying someone the ticket, and there will be those who aren't really even sure what the ticket is and it sits in their bank forever going unused. You could mitigate this buy saying that if the ticket is not used in X period (1 week? 1 Month?) then you are putting a shot clock on it so that people have a finite time in which they can get the right group together to attempt the proposed difficulty of the encounter.
More importantly, why? What's the objective? It just seems like a gimmick to me. Every game tennent you cite as supporting this system is equally supported by group content out in the gameworld, with the added benefit of being lore and/or storyline driven. It just seems much more believable and enjoyable to have encounters out in the gameworld that are as challenging as the proposed system intends to be, with equally profitable rewards for succeeding.
And beyond just these factors, I dislike any system that rewards people inequally for just barely pulling off something that might have been technically just out of the realm of feesibility for them, and for those that bring in huge guns and military precision to just blast an encounter to smithereens. If you're capable of not just surviving the encounter, but doing so by overwhelming force, why do you deserve a greater reward? Seems to me it should be the exact opposite.
Hey Fey,
Thanks for the response. I'd like to respond to some of your questions and also provide some additional clarity on how this system could work.
"If there's a limit to the number of tickets that can be in the populations inventory at any given time, then its ripe for abuse and/or neglect."
I did mention that there would be 8 different tickets, and each of them would grant access to a specific battle inside of the Coliseum. I want to clarify though that there would be no "limit" on how many of these tickets can be in circulation at any given time. If a player really wanted to, they could save all of their tickets for an entire year(including duplicates of the same ticket), and then go visit the Coliseum and use all of them back to back to back. This would actually be the more common approach that groups would take to the Coliseum. It would generally be an event planned a week or so in advance. Knowing that their Friday Coliseum run is approaching, many of the group members would be encouraged to be as active in their adventuring endeavors as possible. The more they go out into the regular the world, the more they interact with other players, the more opportunities they will have to acquire other tickets for their Friday Coliseum run. While the player is sitting around in town messing around with crafting or the auction house, perhaps someone in their guild or one of the chat channels asks if someone could help them finish a quest. While there isn't anything specific to be gained from the area that this quest NPC is located, there might be a named or 2 along the way ... "Ahhh, maybe I'll strike gold and get a ticket while I help this guy out. What do I have to lose, other than an opportunity to get lucky while I'm helping him?" Some players may even offer to help others with the understanding that they would get any tickets that drop. Let's say there is a group of level 42 characters that have been searching for a tank for over half an hour. Nobody is responding. Maybe a well geared level 50 tank messages the group leader and says "Hey, I'll come tank for you guys. I know the zone really good and can show you guys the path I take to clear a bunch of names. I don't really need any of the loot from there though ... would it be cool if I can have any Coliseum Tickets that drop instead?"
"More importantly, why? What's the objective? It just seems like a gimmick to me. Every game tennent you cite as supporting this system is equally supported by group content out in the gameworld, with the added benefit of being lore and/or storyline driven."
The idea behind adding the tickets to the worldwide loot table is simple: By giving ALL creatures above level 40 a chance to drop one, with higher drop rates for names, all of the content you speak of becomes even more relevant. The system I propose does not take away from any of the group content in the game, in fact, it encourages players to go out in the world and experience as much of that content as possible. Here is a scenario I've seen a few hundred times in my gaming days "Do I really want to kill that NPC and get a 5'th bone circlet, which isn't worth anything because that's all it drops and everybody has one" ... Well, imagine replacing those circumstances with "Man, I've gotten 4 straight bone circlets from this thing, hopefully this will be the time I am lucky enough to get a ticket." Also, because ALL names have the rare chance to drop a ticket, while some players may attempt to lock down or camp a specific NPC, you still have a chance of getting something desirable from the rest of the names in the zone that they aren't camping. Adding these tickets to the worldwide loot table increases the replay value of killing virtually all content above level 40, ensuring that no NPC, area, or zone becomes irrelevant. Players will naturally flock to hotspots just like in every other game, but these tickets can help level the playing field by ensuring that no matter what you are doing, there is a chance to get something cool when you kill a rare named. That cool something could be a Coliseum Ticket. Also, I made an effort to tie lore into how the Coliseum could exist in Terminus, and that took all of 30 minutes. It could be expanded upon much further as I purposely left certain angles uncovered such as who the Newfound Nine are, further delving into their roles, how and where Krazekiel met them, and what type of ongoing responsibilities they would have in both their home city and the Coliseum itself. I have never been a huge lore junkie myself, but after reading Jimmayus rendition of the lore for Pantheon, I became hooked. I absolutely love the storyline of this game ... it's by far the most appealing that I have ever seen for an MMO, or any RPG in general. I honestly think a dumbed down quick version of the lore would be an amazing way to attract new players to this game. In saying all of that, I still feel that the Coliseum could fit nicely into the world of Terminus. It would serve as a pretty cool neutral territory for higher level characters to interact without fear of being KoS with guards. I also think it would be a great location to implement some faction related quests or merchants.
"It just seems much more believable and enjoyable to have encounters out in the gameworld that are as challenging as the proposed system intends to be, with equally profitable rewards for succeeding."
I think the idea of having these creatures in the Coliseum could be very believable and very enjoyable, but what couldn't be done is adding the bonus objectives to creatures in the regular gameworld in a way that makes sense, or as you put it, make it believeable. Why would a group want to kill a hard named withour curing a major debuff? Why would they kill the adds rather than mezz them? Why would they DPS all 3 Hydra Heads simultaneously rather than killing the first one very quick to make the fight easier? By adding them to the Coliseum, the "Master Hunter Krazekiel" is willing to reward players for killing these beasts in the most challenging way possible. Think for example how some hunters prefer to use a bow and arrow over a hunting rifle ... or how in sport fishing there are limits on what type of rod/line/bait/lure you can use. For the sake of competition, various handicaps are hardwired into the sport to make it more challenging ... and as we all know, the greater the challenge, the more satisfying it is when we win. Since the Master Hunter has prior experience killing these beasts, he also knows how to exploit them ... and that's how he has determined these bonus objectives. It makes sense lore wise, and it's opening up a mechanic-heavy style of combat that otherwise wouldn't be viable in the majority of real in-game scenarios. I think the bonus objectives are a great way to encourage "emergent behavior" within the community. If you read the examples I listed on the fights, there are several instances where 2 of the bonus objectives create a major conflict in how a group would go about completing them.
And beyond just these factors, I dislike any system that rewards people inequally for just barely pulling off something that might have been technically just out of the realm of feesibility for them, and for those that bring in huge guns and military precision to just blast an encounter to smithereens. If you're capable of not just surviving the encounter, but doing so by overwhelming force, why do you deserve a greater reward? Seems to me it should be the exact opposite.
The cool part about having bonus objectives is that you can add any type of gameplay element you want to the encounter design. As an example, there is no reason that one of the fights couldn't have a bonus objective that requires the team to survive for more than 10 minutes. If you look at the bonus objectives I created for the Goblin Horde, one of them is defeating the encounter without using a single AE ability. Think about how cool and challenging that sounds? The natural instinct for a group when fighting a large encounter like this would be to bring in the huge guns and military precision you speak of and just blast the encounter to smithereens. And for some groups, they will do that just so they can beat the encounter. It's going to take a special kind of focus and adaptive awareness to be able kill that encounter without using a single AE attack.
Another example would be the Nightmare Wisp. Because the mob randomly goes invisible it would seem like natural instinct to to cast see invis on your group so that they could follow it and prevent it from healing. This is particularly true if you're trying to complete the first bonus objective of beating the encounter in less than 5 minutes. But because the 2'nd objective requires that you beat it without using see invis, it forces players to come up with another plan on how they can effectively kill the monster fast enough to earn the 1st bonus objective. That's an opportunity for emergent gameplay to develop within the group, and perhaps one of the ideas they figure out is to find another way to see the mob, whether it's through creating some sort of environmental effect that prevents it from casting the invis spell, or some other combination of acclimation/buffing/debuffing. Finally, the 3'rd bonus objective; defeat the Nightmare Wisp without using any type of acclimation buff or environmental effect. Well, that takes away some of the possibilities of how the group would have been able to successfully complete the 2'nd objective. So how the heck does a group kill this thing in less than 5 minutes, without using see invis, and without using any sort of acclimation buff/debuff or environmental attack?
The idea that came to my mind was this: If you want to beat this encounter and also complete all 3 bonus objectives, you realize that you won't be able to prevent the wisp from going invis by using an environmental ability such as "Anti Magic Field" where NPC's can't cast magic while inside it, because that would cause you to fail objective 3. You also can't cast see invis on your group after it disappears because that will disqualify you from bonus objective 2. To top all of that off, you can't afford to drag the fight out forever in hopes that eventually you will out DPS it's heals over time because that will cause you to fail objective 1. The type of emergent gameplay I was hoping players would figure out would be to cast a healing debuff on the wisp just before it goes invis. If this reduces it's healing by let's say 40%, that's going to take away just enough of it's sustain to where you will still have a chance to kill it in less than 5 minutes without taking the easy route of casting see invis or using an environmental effect that prevents it from going invis in the first place.
The other reason I really like the idea of having these bonus objectives is that they allow players a variety of ways to progress with their mastering of the encounter, and it isn't entirely tied into their gear or spells. Having actual experience with the mob is very important because you're really going to need to be accurate with your ability timing (if you don't use heal debuff just before it goes invis, for example, this could make the difference of completing objective 1. It's going to go invis several times during the fight and it's important that you get maximum uptime on the debuff by casting it as close to the moment it goes invis as possible ... too soon and you lose uptime, too late and it doesen't land at all) So after a group has the encounter figured out pretty good, they can then decide "Should we try to complete bonus objectives 1 and 2? Or maybe 1 and 3 would make more sense? Oh you think 2 and 3 would be better? It allows them options on what their gameplan is. Certain objective combinations will be easier with some group compositions than others, and it's on the group to determine what strategy makes the most sense based on the composition they have. As far as completing all 3 objectives goes, this is the part where I want to stress the idea of emergent gameplay. It allows players to use tools in their kit in ways that wouldn't normally make sense, but it's that "outside the box" thinking that I think many of us players would find highly enjoyable. Rather than just tank'n'spank'n and mezzing everything, it will be on the players to figure out a variety of unconventional (yet highly effective) techniques that play a key role in their potential victory. Every part of this idea seems to compliment the great majority of tenets that are the driving force behind how the game is being designed. I know I might be pretty biased about some of this, but to me, I think this idea/system goes in perfect harmony with VR's vision for Pantheon, and truly believe that it could be a great outlet for many of the core gameplay elements to thrive beyond our already high expectations.
Kilsin said:Please do not post to say that you have edited man, they are deemed spam/double posts and have to be moderated, just update the OP and people can see the update date/time and know that you have added something new. ;)
I apologize, but since starting the thread, some new ideas have blossomed and replaced some of the former. As it were, people would see certain information in one post, only to read further into the thread and see another statement that might contradict or repeat a slightly different version of something they have already read. To clarify, none of the posts that I edited to read as "Edited" were a double post or spam. They were all responses to player questions or a new piece of information. I've been adding to the idea as the thread progressed and felt it would be easier for people to read/understand the idea if everything was condensed into a single unified post. Prior to the edits it may have seemed a bit discombobulated. Can you confirm if the new forum platform will allow us to delete posts? I would gladly have gone in and taken care of legwork myself.
First, I want to say that I appreciate the time and effort you've obviously put into this thread. I enjoyed reading the lore behind your idea. That said, this has too much of a carnival feel for my liking. I believe it would make the game feel less dangerous to me, and I don't like that.
Even with Krazekiel's reputation, I'd have a hard time believing that he could so easily keep and control these powerful monsters that are supposed to be challenging for my group to defeat. An arch lich does not sound like something to be trifled with, but here one is, tamed by your hero. That doesn't feel dangerous to me. When you add in these bonus objectives, it seems even less dangerous. I don't think Terminus is a place where you hold back and play around with your opponent in an attempt to impress some retired adventurer. I think you do whatever you can to kill your enemy before he kills you.
One other issue I had was with the rewards. I'm not a fan of the entire group getting the rewards (for completing the bonuses), and I'd rather not have Coliseum armor be a thing people are grinding. I'd like to see some sort of magical/demonic summoning items drop randomly in the world (instead of carnival tickets) and be used to summon monsters/demons at specific places. You gather your group, use the item to spawn the monster, and you kill it (or die trying). If you kill it, it has loot like other nameds in the game. Preferably tradeable loot.
Shucklighter said:First, I want to say that I appreciate the time and effort you've obviously put into this thread. I enjoyed reading the lore behind your idea. That said, this has too much of a carnival feel for my liking. I believe it would make the game feel less dangerous to me, and I don't like that.
Even with Krazekiel's reputation, I'd have a hard time believing that he could so easily keep and control these powerful monsters that are supposed to be challenging for my group to defeat. An arch lich does not sound like something to be trifled with, but here one is, tamed by your hero. That doesn't feel dangerous to me. When you add in these bonus objectives, it seems even less dangerous. I don't think Terminus is a place where you hold back and play around with your opponent in an attempt to impress some retired adventurer. I think you do whatever you can to kill your enemy before he kills you.
One other issue I had was with the rewards. I'm not a fan of the entire group getting the rewards (for completing the bonuses), and I'd rather not have Coliseum armor be a thing people are grinding. I'd like to see some sort of magical/demonic summoning items drop randomly in the world (instead of carnival tickets) and be used to summon monsters/demons at specific places. You gather your group, use the item to spawn the monster, and you kill it (or die trying). If you kill it, it has loot like other nameds in the game. Preferably tradeable loot.
Hey man, you make some really good points and I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll be honest, I only spent maybe 30-40 minutes writing the lore. I can tell you for sure that I wouldn't want the Coliseum to feel like a carnival. My vision for The Coliseum was more like a high end black market. With that said, I'd like to touch more specifically on several of your points:
"I believe it would make the game feel less dangerous to me, and I don't like that. Even with Krazekiel's reputation, I'd have a hard time believing that he could so easily keep and control these powerful monsters that are supposed to be challenging for my group to defeat. An arch lich does not sound like something to be trifled with, but here one is, tamed by your hero. That doesn't feel dangerous to me."
I kind of gave myself an out here when I mentioned that The Coliseum was privately funded and maintained by a mercenary army. As I mentioned in my first response, I was really looking for more of a black market type of vibe. There wouldn't be any overwhelming demographic here, rather, it would feel pretty policed by the military for hire and bare more of an upper class mafia type resemblance. As far as the carnival-esque theme, I guess that really depends on how powerful the army is. Perhaps they have some sort of technology to imprison these monsters during their transit to the arena battlefields. Rather than seeing a tamed monster sitting there waiting for you to attack it, it's released from it's confinement and it's actually really pissed about being locked up, anxious to tear your group a new one.
"When you add in these bonus objectives, it seems even less dangerous. I don't think Terminus is a place where you hold back and play around with your opponent in an attempt to impress some retired adventurer. I think you do whatever you can to kill your enemy before he kills you."
I agree that having bonus objectives probably isn't the best idea, but it can be tweaked and blended with other ideas. What about instead of just bonus objectives, groups are intentionally handicapped when they enter the arena. (Still leaving the bonus objective concept on the table because there are certain gameplay mechanics that I would find enjoyable that couldn't be manufactured by any type of handicap) Before entering, a group would be able to decide how many handicaps they were willing to risk fighting with, and are offered proper incentive to match that risk. I think this would be a wonderful way to touch on the risk vs reward tenet because with each handicap that a group agrees to fight with, they are confronted with a very tangible burden of additional risk. The idea of adventurers battling these powerful creatures with imposed handicaps would also compliment the black market vibe I was aiming for. Rather than impressing the retired adventurer, these handicaps are used as an extra layer of excitement for the crowds of people that spectate the fights. Only the bravest of adventurers would dare to do battle with the Arch Lich, knowing that they couldn't cure paralysis and would suffer from heavy magic resist debuffs.
I think this would help emphasize the sense of danger that you are looking for, and also provide a more genuine "Gladiator in the Coliseum" type of experience. As far as the danger feeling natural, however, I can understand and appreciate the argument that these self-imposed handicaps may feel somewhat gimmicky, but I guess it just depends on your character and or player personality. Personally, I plan on playing an ogre warrior. "Me clobber your face with war club. Kill stupid creature, should know better than mess with Oghba" (totally not using that name) That's just my perspective, but I can see plenty of character personality/race combinations where people would enjoy the thrill of fighting a monster with added layers of difficulty for no purpose other than for the sport of it. The arenas would be an area where some of the standard rules are bent, but I personally don't see that as a bad thing. I would very much enjoy playing my character without being constantly haunted by fears of danger all the time and these arena battles would be a refreshing change of pace.
"One other issue I had was with the rewards. I'm not a fan of the entire group getting the rewards (for completing the bonuses), and I'd rather not have Coliseum armor be a thing people are grinding."
As far as the rewards go, it's very difficult to speculate on what would or would not be appropriate considering the highly conceptual nature of this idea. In saying such, I do believe that it's possible to create a system within the confines of this setting that could provide meaningful rewards to those who participate. These rewards don't necessarily have to be gear, but I personally believe that having gear in the equation is perfectly fine. My understanding is that there will be a lot of situational gear in Pantheon. The loot tables could be designed to provide rare or unique pieces that may or may not be found anywhere else in the game. There wouldn't be full sets of gear, but rather special effect trinkets, different pieces of high end resist jewelery (again, don't need to create sets, the jewelery can be properly itemized to fill one of the many holes in a large, diverse, and situational loot system), powerful consumables, weapons, and perhaps some sporadic pieces of situational gear for each armor type.
As far as the grinding goes, this is also an area of the idea that is highly conceptual. Without knowing how many names are in the game, it's difficult to determine an appropriate drop rate for the tickets. Another imporant aspect to consider is the learnability of these encounters. I recently shared this idea with a very smart acquaintance of mine and he pointed out that it would be difficult to balance the difficulty of the encounters with a groups ability to learn them, and ultimately overcome the extra challenges that are unique to the arena setting. Because of this, the idea behind these tickets would have to be very carefully implemented and controlled. You don't want them to be so rare that groups won't be able to get consistent experience on the encounters, but you also don't want them to be so common that groups just spam farm the arena all day. This is quite the conundrum.
To that end, I would propose:
Option A: the tickets are tradeable, but only for other tickets at a 1 to 1 ratio. This would allow groups to combine resources and make a coordinated effort to tackle one of the specific encounters, should they be able to acquire trade partners(player interaction!). This does help a bit in regards to the learnability side of the equation, and if it's not enough, the only other alternative that I can think of off hand would be to increase the drop rate of the tickets. Again, with the conceptual nature of this idea, it's difficult to accurately predict how something like this should be balanced, and is probably a decision best left to the development team.
Option B: allow each ticket to grant permanent access to a specific encounter, but they remain no-trade. If you require every person in the group to have the same ticket, this could open up some very cool opportunities for natural player interaction. I can imagine The Coliseum having a pretty large gathering of max-level adventurers that are actively seeking out other characters that share the same tickets. Static groups may not love the idea, but they have plenty of other content that they can work on until they are eventually capable of experiencing all that The Coliseum has to offer to a specific group of friends. Or maybe they would love it because they realize that they'll have a natural advantage over a random group, and prioritize getting everybody in their group as many tickets as possible as fast as possible. I think the overall drop rate of each ticket would have to be reduced significantly if this approach was utilized, but it could definitely lead to a very satisfying sense of organic relationship building.
As far as the grinding goes, it really depends on which ticket option makes the most sense to be implemented. I'll try to provide a possible solution that cooresponds to each option.
Solution A: If it's possible to balance the rarity of tickets with the learnability of the encounters, there shouldn't be any inherent issue in regards to people grinding the arenas. Because of the natural rarity of the tickets, players would only have so many attempts in the arena before needing to pack up and get back to adventuring through other areas of Terminus. Participation in the arena would be entirely predicated on ones ability to acquire tickets, and thus make the experience much more of an occasion than a place capable of fielding any sort of grind session.
Solution B: I'd like to point out that with each new obstacle presented, there is also an opportunity. With that being said, I'd like to propose that for every attempt to do battle in the arena, every member of the group must supply a piece of gear (with quality/level requirements) that would be confiscated by The Coliseum officials. This would be a great way to remove loot from the economy, which is a very important and necessary function of the game. My understanding is that most loot will be tradeable, and in saying such, there has to be a variety of ways that loot can be removed from the game, lest the economy be overrun with a serious overstock of supply. I do believe that sacrificing gear for favor will be one such method. The Coliseum could provide at the very least a second method. This option provides several unintentional (but still very effective) advantageous side effects to the economy. The more items removed from the game, the more valuable the remaining items become. This can help establish a baseline value for all loot (equal to same quality/level requirements of the gear that was confiscated) that is in the game, essentially providing a stimulus package to anybody in the business of selling their merchandise. This could also be a huge boost for crafters assuming that their gear qualifies as a form of payment to the Coliseum. The baseline value for all crafted gear would increase due to the player driven demand for items that can be sacrificed and or used as a form of payment at the Coliseum, in addition to the gear that is purchased that characters plan on equipping. Crafters, rejoice!?
Now, I understand with option B, that doesen't necessarily remove the entire concept of grinding the arena. It would however require a significant cost per attempt, and that price would be dictated by the player driven economy. If it gets out of hand, the devs could always impose an artificial per day/week restriction on how many times a character can "win" in the arena. Personally, I would hope that this wouldn't be necessary. I feel that with all of the loot that is being taken out of the economy, it's okay to bring some back in. There are so many variables to consider when trying to balance all of this, that it would require some serious cross compatibility with other aspects of the game. That may prove to be a difficult task, but I do believe that with enough effort, a fair compromise can be made that would be beneficial for social interaction, character progression, enjoyable and challenging content, and potential lore development.
"I'd like to see some sort of magical/demonic summoning items drop randomly in the world (instead of carnival tickets) and be used to summon monsters/demons at specific places. You gather your group, use the item to spawn the monster, and you kill it (or die trying). If you kill it, it has loot like other nameds in the game. Preferably tradeable loot."
I think this could be accomodated within the confines of The Coliseum. Whether it's using the idea I mentioned in my novel above (army has technology to imprison monsters and releases a very pissed off baddy thats ready to kill the first thing they see), or using an approach like you suggest, the arena battlegrounds could be that specific place where the action goes down, and spectators would still enjoy watching the events unfold. The Coliseum also provides a unique way to create very mechanically engaging combat by utilizing the handicap system. The arenas can be used as a platform to provide unconventional battle mechanics, and as I mentioned in the OP, I really like the idea of this because it can lead to many forms of emergent gameplay. I understand and appreciate your concern about how it may feel like our characters are "toying around" with these monsters, but I also feel that there is another side to the equation in the sense that by playing through these handicaps or bonus objectives, our characters would be presented with unique challenges that might not be possible elsewhere in the game. Rather than looking at it like they are holding back or playing around, consider this perspective: "As bad ass as the Arch Lich is, I want my character to be portrayed as even more bad ass ... and I'm going to show you why. Watch me beat this things face in with my fists." These type of challenges shouldn't necessarily be perceived as something designed for a character with a playful demeanor; rather, while someone is watching they might think to themselves "If this guy pulls this off that would be so sick ... how the hell do you kill that thing like that?"
As far as the actual loot goes, I mentioned earlier that it's probably best not to have a preconceived notion on how the reward system would work. I do agree with you and would highly prefer that the loot be tradeable, but this would have to be balanced by the development team because there are just too many unknown considerations that I am unable to account for. Where there is a will, there is a way, though.
Why do you have to increase the learnability of the encounter? And rather than handicaps and bonus objectives, why not just make the encounters extremely difficult? I like the idea of requiring each member of the group to have the summoning item, but I wouldn't have it so once you get your summoning item, you're keyed for unlimited attempts at that encounter. I also don't think the summoning items need to be nodrop, either. Just make them extremely rare, and probably make them lore so that a character can only ever have one copy of the exact summoning item. In order to take a shot at an encounter, each member of a full group of six would be required to be in possession of the same summoning item. The monster is summoned, the items are consumed, and they have their shot. If they die, that's it. They incur the normal death penalty and it will be quite a while before that group gets another chance at that encounter, just based on the rarity of the summoning items. Finding someone willing to trade or sell the summoning item you need would be quite difficult (and expensive). If the summoning items are rare enough and the encounters are difficult enough, I could see it being a while before someone is able to develop a winning strategy. Once there's a strat, it will surely be on YouTube, but if a group following that strat isn't perfect, they may be looking at another month before they can collect enough summoning items to try again. I think this would be difficult enough that you could have some pretty decent loot dropping from these encounters.
I don't think I'd mix sacrificing a piece of gear into this idea. I think the summoning items are enough of a cost.
Shucklighter said:Why do you have to increase the learnability of the encounter? And rather than handicaps and bonus objectives, why not just make the encounters extremely difficult? I like the idea of requiring each member of the group to have the summoning item, but I wouldn't have it so once you get your summoning item, you're keyed for unlimited attempts at that encounter. I also don't think the summoning items need to be nodrop, either. Just make them extremely rare, and probably make them lore so that a character can only ever have one copy of the exact summoning item. In order to take a shot at an encounter, each member of a full group of six would be required to be in possession of the same summoning item. The monster is summoned, the items are consumed, and they have their shot. If they die, that's it. They incur the normal death penalty and it will be quite a while before that group gets another chance at that encounter, just based on the rarity of the summoning items. Finding someone willing to trade or sell the summoning item you need would be quite difficult (and expensive). If the summoning items are rare enough and the encounters are difficult enough, I could see it being a while before someone is able to develop a winning strategy. Once there's a strat, it will surely be on YouTube, but if a group following that strat isn't perfect, they may be looking at another month before they can collect enough summoning items to try again. I think this would be difficult enough that you could have some pretty decent loot dropping from these encounters.
I don't think I'd mix sacrificing a piece of gear into this idea. I think the summoning items are enough of a cost.
Some more great points Shuck. My original vision for The Coliseum was closer to what you just described. I personally didn't see any issue with the learnability factor, but I understand that when the development team designs new encounters, they have to consider how many people would be able to enjoy the content. While plenty of people would most assuredly try it, it's possible that most may not enjoy losing if it's a really rare encounter opportunity and they burned away their ticket while making zero progress on the mob. If everybody in the group needed a ticket AND they got consumed ... that seems way too harsh. As far as people looking stuff up on Youtube goes, watching people do something online is entirely different than doing it yourself. In a fight as intense as I hope these would be, it would likely take many many many attempts before someone was able to beat an encounter on the hardest difficulty setting. Again, I really like the idea of having something like this in the game, but it's very difficult to imagine how exactly it would fit into the world that is already Terminus(and that of which has already been planned). Personally, I would want to enjoy the encounters more than once per month. As a pretty hardcore player, I'd like to be able to enjoy some Coliseum runs several times per week. One thing I remember about BCNM's in FFXI though was that I only got to do them a few times. I did all of the contested end game raiding more than I did the BCNM's. When I zoned in, it was with pick up groups, and we promptly lost most of the attempts. I had no idea what I was doing and felt pretty robbed from the whole experience. The worst part is that I really really wanted to go back in and retry the encounters ... but those opportunities never came. I can't remember exactly how the BCNM tokens were looted in FFXI but from my personal experience in CoP they were extremely rare. I missed out on some good content. =/
Hmmm, well, you could increase the drop rate or bring it back to one summoning item per group to give groups more chances at it, I suppose. Even the way I described it, though, it would only be a matter of time before people were winning more often than not. I think something so difficult would be quite popular. If players are only getting a shot at these tough encounters every few weeks or so, it would also satisfy your desire to have spectators. You would indubitably have people scouting and trying to get as many looks at each encounter as they possibly could. Also, you could have a lot more than eight encounters. So, while you may only get one shot a month at a particular encounter, you could still conceivably get your friends together for a handful of these encounters each week. You then might have situations where Group A really wants to get Encounter 1 down. Maybe after they fail the first time they are able to trade their Encounter 3 summoning items to Group B for Encounter 1 summoning items. Perhaps they fail again and are able to trade their Encounter 6 summoning items to Group C for Encounter 1 summoning items. This way, a group could decide to focus and possibly get multiple attempts at a specific encounter in one night at the cost of attempts at other encounters.
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:Please do not post to say that you have edited man, they are deemed spam/double posts and have to be moderated, just update the OP and people can see the update date/time and know that you have added something new. ;)
I apologize, but since starting the thread, some new ideas have blossomed and replaced some of the former. As it were, people would see certain information in one post, only to read further into the thread and see another statement that might contradict or repeat a slightly different version of something they have already read. To clarify, none of the posts that I edited to read as "Edited" were a double post or spam. They were all responses to player questions or a new piece of information. I've been adding to the idea as the thread progressed and felt it would be easier for people to read/understand the idea if everything was condensed into a single unified post. Prior to the edits it may have seemed a bit discombobulated. Can you confirm if the new forum platform will allow us to delete posts? I would gladly have gone in and taken care of legwork myself.
It really doesn't matter man, I can even see that you edited this reply:
"This post was edited by oneADseven at February 4, 2017 12:59 PM AEDT"
So everyone can see it and know that you updated the OP, so please use that method instead of double posting ;)
No, deleting post will only ever be in the control of Admins like myself and it is up to VR Staff to set the rules and moderate to enforce them.
Kilsin said:oneADseven said:Kilsin said:Please do not post to say that you have edited man, they are deemed spam/double posts and have to be moderated, just update the OP and people can see the update date/time and know that you have added something new. ;)
I apologize, but since starting the thread, some new ideas have blossomed and replaced some of the former. As it were, people would see certain information in one post, only to read further into the thread and see another statement that might contradict or repeat a slightly different version of something they have already read. To clarify, none of the posts that I edited to read as "Edited" were a double post or spam. They were all responses to player questions or a new piece of information. I've been adding to the idea as the thread progressed and felt it would be easier for people to read/understand the idea if everything was condensed into a single unified post. Prior to the edits it may have seemed a bit discombobulated. Can you confirm if the new forum platform will allow us to delete posts? I would gladly have gone in and taken care of legwork myself.
It really doesn't matter man, I can even see that you edited this reply:
"This post was edited by oneADseven at February 4, 2017 12:59 PM AEDT"
So everyone can see it and know that you updated the OP, so please use that method instead of double posting ;)
No, deleting post will only ever be in the control of Admins like myself and it is up to VR Staff to set the rules and moderate to enforce them.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified my question a little better. I didn't mean to ask if people would have access to delete posts in general and partake in moderation, I meant to ask if we could delete our own posts. On a post like this for example, where I am actively seeking input from other players to help fine tune the idea, it would be helpful if I were able to delete my own posts. The option to do so would make it easier for the thread to a tell a story without being discombobulated with different posts that might contradict my intention of adapting the story based on feedback from other players. The way it's set up right now prevents me from being able to do that. It's not a huge deal to me either way, but I understand that you're only one guy and cleaning up an entire forum could be frustrating. Allowing players to delete their own posts would help alleviate some of that burden for you. I don't recall ever purposely double posting, but there was one instance where I made a post and it instantly generated 2 identical posts at the exact same time. That would have been a perfect opportunity for me to be able to delete the accidental double post rather than editing the duplicate to reflect that it was an accidental double post and you needing to come in and remove it. Just an idea.
The problem that Kilsin is trying to point out in this particular case (I think) is that fine-tuning is a progression. And the means by which any final idea is crafted is relevent to anyone that enters the conversation. Lacking the foundation from which the conversation began because its been deleted puts any new entry into the conversation at a disadvantage, and is ripe for rehashing things that were already "resolved". Deleting your posts makes it appear that those who responded to them are talking about things that are irrelevent, obtuse, off-topic or quite possibly dillusional. If people dont know why they responded in the way they did, everything they say looks to be entirely out of context.
Shucklighter said:Hmmm, well, you could increase the drop rate or bring it back to one summoning item per group to give groups more chances at it, I suppose. Even the way I described it, though, it would only be a matter of time before people were winning more often than not. I think something so difficult would be quite popular. If players are only getting a shot at these tough encounters every few weeks or so, it would also satisfy your desire to have spectators. You would indubitably have people scouting and trying to get as many looks at each encounter as they possibly could. Also, you could have a lot more than eight encounters. So, while you may only get one shot a month at a particular encounter, you could still conceivably get your friends together for a handful of these encounters each week. You then might have situations where Group A really wants to get Encounter 1 down. Maybe after they fail the first time they are able to trade their Encounter 3 summoning items to Group B for Encounter 1 summoning items. Perhaps they fail again and are able to trade their Encounter 6 summoning items to Group C for Encounter 1 summoning items. This way, a group could decide to focus and possibly get multiple attempts at a specific encounter in one night at the cost of attempts at other encounters.
It's pretty safe to say that no amount of fan planning can create a perfect system when there are so many aspects of the game that can't be accounted for. After the game is launched it would be much easier to speculate on how things could be changed or improved as we would would have a clearer view of the big picture. My goal with this post was to create more of a foundational piece that could be built on and tweaked by the development team to fit their vision of the game. I wanted to create and solicit as many ideas/variables/angles as possible, and if the idea as a whole was well received, the dev team could cherry pick which parts made the most sense from a development perspective and create their own version of the idea for the game. As I mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed the BCNM function from FFXI, and I would love to see a new and improved version of that in Pantheon.
The idea behind bonus objectives actually came from my limited PVE experience in WoW. I remember there being plenty of special achievements that players could obtain if they managed to pull off certain difficult combat mechanics on most of the content. The thing I didn't like about it, similar to what you referenced earlier, is that it wasn't truly believeable while inside the game. It was more of a system to incentivize the player with a sense of achievement rather than the character. I still liked the system because it allowed for some really interesting outside the box type of gameplay, but I think it would be a much more fulfilling experience if those achievements were something that my character could strive for rather than just me as the player. I am fascinated by the idea of stretching the limits of what my character can do with emergent gameplay tactics, and believe that a blend of bonus objectives/imposed handicaps would be an efficient way to accomodate that kind of playstyle.