Reusing the models for mobs and just recoloring with changing a couple textures is totally fine with me, for example the different colored goblins in different areas for EQ or the Deathfist vs Crushbone orc models. Though entirely different flavors are obviously better: Kunark vs Original goblins.
Recycled zones or dungeon layouts? Please no. No no no. I absolutely do not want different versions of the same zone scaled for different levels/raids/whatever else. If they are going to have a different version of an existing zone then let it come in a patch and rework the old into something new.
Feyshtey said:I've been kinda trying to digest this thread for a while now and decide how I wanted to respond. There's a lot going on here, and a few tangents. But here's my initial take: My kneejerk reaction is to say "**** that.".
For me, spawning off a new alternate iteration of an existing zone or scaling a zone for a particular level or number of participants in an encounter is like going back and rewriting the character Samwise in the Lord of the Rings. MMOs are, again for me, a story. They are an adventure that results in a rich history. Rewriting history just completely throws believability out the window, and the game becomes disjointed. Lore becomes dissassciated with the reality of the gameworld, familiarity becomes meaningless, and continuity is shot right between the eyes with a bazooka. I really have no desire to play a game that dynamically alters its presentation based on some desire to be inclusive in as many ways as possible to as many people as possible at any given stage of their story. That kind of thinking leads to the lowest common denominator IMO, and is in essence equally placating and patronizing.
Now, that being said, I don't have a problem when a developer recognizes that a zone is being wholly ignored by pretty much everyone because it has fundimental gameplay issues that people just dont enjoy. Fixing that black hole of entertainment absolutely has its place, and when done thru a storyline and thru a lore-driven redevelopment I'm good with it. But not if it means I can still go to the old version.
I'm not interested in some interdemensional timewarp game. I'll accept a new chapter to the story, but dont rewrite history.
Have you ever played FFXI? If so, what were your thoughts on Dynamis? It was a parallel dimension that used existing content but provided a very meaningful form of progression (relic armor) for anybody who enjoyed raiding. What was the thought process that went into creating Dynamis? When the development team decided to reuse a zone, was it because they wanted to provide more raid content without having to design a brand new zone? If they weren't able to recycle the zone layout, would that have delayed or scrapped the entire Dynamis idea altogether? When the EQ2 team created Spirits of the Lost, what was the reason behind it? Provide meaningful and enjoyable content as cheap and fast as possible? If that was their goal, they achieved it with a GRAND SLAM. I don't understand why anybody would bark at the idea of having more content. You don't have to play it if you don't want to. If the thought of going to a nightmare version of another zone truly bothers you, it's on you to decide that you would rather skip out on that content. You're not forced to participate in alternate versions of any zone ... but for those who ARE interested, the OPTION exists.
From a players perspective who has always run out of content, I am going to push as hard as I can for the VR team to create as much raid/group content as possible. If that means they need to recycle some of their dungeon/zone layouts, so be it. It's been proven to work in various games. I'm not saying that all recycling is going to be great, but I can definitely point out some examples where it worked marvelously. If you have an example where that isn't the case, feel free to provide it. I find the idea of parallel dimensions to be quite intriguing and I would very much look forward to having a "nightmare raid version" or "nightmage group dungeon" of as many areas as possible. Everquest 2 also did this with Nektropos Castle, a Permafrost dungeon, Runnyeye, etc. Whenever this content came out, people loved it! I loved Runnyeye, but it was only good for about 10 levels. Beyond that, you're probably never coming back. What's wrong with creating a very difficult level 50 version of Runnyeye? Super cost effective and it provides CONTENT. Content is king.
Usually all of this stuff came in the form of a free patch. The dev team would realize that people were grinding the same ol same ol and needed something fresh. Without taking too much resources from the expansion team, they could reuse a zone from another tier like Runnyeye and create a new max level nightmare version of the same zone. This didn't interfere with the original zone ... that was left in tact. Again ... the more content, the better. I'm advocating that this recycle mentality be utilized as much as possible. Many people have commented on "some people are just gonna blow through content and run out of stuff to do." Yep, true. And over time, most people will do exactly that especially if they prefer a specific type of content, such as raiding. Recycling content is a way to keep people engaged with something "new" while simultaneously allowing them to reminisce on an experience they had earlier in the game. The main selling point on this however is how amazingly cost effective it can be. That's the main reason I'm advocating for it. And beyond just that, some zones are just SOOOO COOOL.
Let's say Amberfaet is a level 20-35 area. Let's also say that it ends up being the most aesthetically pleasing zone to look at in the game. Let's say it's my absolute favorite zone in the game ... enjoyed leveling there more than anywhere else. After I out level the zone, there won't be any real incentive for me to go back as it might not be able to help with progressing my character any more. But I still really liked it and WISH I had a reason to go back. And not just to sneak to the forge guy ... I want to relive the experience of adventuring through the zone for the first time. While our map awareness would still be in tact from prior visits, you would still be able to enjoy a sense of adventure because now there would be bigger badder monsters to kill. Unknown traps to navigate through. Maybe other twists in the zone ... etc.
I did not play FFXI, and I stopped playing EQ2 long before Spirits of the Lost. So no, I don't have a real-world experience with the kinds of things you're suggesting other than in the cases of EQ where they did the epic versions of old dungeons.
But in general I prefer that if there's going to be new content that it be trully new content. Not an alternate presentation of something that already exists. I prefer new visuals, new storylines, new enemies, and new types of challenges. I've never been one that consumes all the content before a release comes out in any game that had a marginally challenging level curve, so I dont see why it would be impossible to keep me entertained. And if this game compares to dozens of others where a casual player can cap out their level in a matter of a month, I wont be playing it long enough to care what they do with rehashing old content anway.
I'll even go so far as to say that if an expansion were to be released that had multiple old zones reimagined in an alternate historical timeline, I'd be able to stomach that. But only so long as they were able to tie all of them together into a storyline that made sense and wasnt a "cats on the moon" sized scoop of stupid. But I find it tremendously difficult to accept that I'd be compelled to engage in content that made it possible for me to go to the same dungeon with the same mobs during multiple stages of character progression and be challenged because the mobs scaled to my level or to the number of people in my party. Or worse, go to the entrance of a dungeon and pick which version I wanted to enter. (That last is aside from engine mechanics that can spawn a new instance purely for population control reasons, which I dont like, but can appreciate.)
I'd be in the same camp as Feyshtey on this one, he pretty much summed up all my feelings in his last 2 posts!
If it was done right and the world evolved in line with the lore then that is the way the story goes, but if it felt like just a revamp to entertain high level players I wouldnt feel great about it.
+1 for what Feyshtey said. Against that kind of empty content to entertain max level players that itch for more more more, because it is very clearly empty content. That kind of thing may have worked well in those other games but I imagine (having not played FFXI past the first year or EQ2 more than a couple months) those games employ the carrot on a stick gear treadmill form of advancement. Making Unrest 2.0 for high level characters and throwing new gear and harder mobs into it is just as lazy as it sounds. Not to mention it cheapens those zones in time.
I'd rather see an evolving world
Events altering the character of creatures?Permitting stories for each of those evolved creatures to unfurl and new challenges for the player to survive
I dont mind recycled areas, because I realize I am familiar and I know where walls are and where turns are, like a cursed city, or a city back in time before it was a city.
These could have new features or tunnels- which would be easily identifiable due ot the players familiarity with the old or normal zone.
However, I dont like re-vamped existing zones (for those who remember- the re-vamped freeport) as its confusing. Otherwise, if its a new zone, keep it a new zone, and an 85 degree angle is not a ramp- its a wall- seeing it as a wall and then realizing it is a bridge, it's like driving and the hood of your car popping up accidentally..
