Will there be cumulative stat/effect bonuses for multiple pieces of the same set of armor? I haven't MMO'd really since EQ, so I don't know if any of the other games went that way.
I've always thought it would be neat if each piece's stats would increase incrementally if worn with more pieces of the same set.
I'd prefer not to have these in the game. First, they lead to "everyone's wearing the same stuff". Second, personally I hate to finally manage to get a set together, only to find a slight upgrade piece a short time later, and then having to decide to keep my set bonus or use the slightly better item :/
We have discussed set piece bonuses in other threads, but not exclusively so it is fine to discuss it here. Set piece bonuses are pretty game breaking balance wise they either make old content trivial or require the team to forcefully avoid certain things in new content to avoid it being abused/exploited, it really is not something that I want to see in Pantheon, especially after what it did to VG.
I like that set bonuses can be used to extend the life span of gear if implemented well. It can also give players incentive to replay old content.
Hypothetical situation: Each expansion a player has the option to acquire a different armor piece that belongs to the same armor set. If you didn't acquire the armor piece from the new expansion the older armor piece might have outdated stats that you wouldn't want to equip, but with the new piece and the set bonus it makes wearing both pieces together worthwhile.
This could make having an armor piece from multiple expansions ago desirable.
It might give players a reason to go back and replay old content. If someone was running new content and they received a armor piece with a possible set bonus they now have incentive to go play content from past expansions because they want the set bonus from the matching piece in the set.
Kilsin said:
Set piece bonuses are pretty game breaking balance wise
That statement is only true if set bonuses are implemented poorly. There is no reason for set bonuses to be "game breaking". If that is the way it is, someone screwed up. Theoretically, set bonuses shouldn't be any harder to balance than any other gear bonus/stat.
Kilsin said:
they either make old content trivial
Any gear upgrades can make old content trivial. Blaming armor set bonuses seems a bit misplaced.
Kilsin said:
or require the team to forcefully avoid certain things in new content to avoid it being abused/exploited,
What "things" do armor set bonuses force the team "to avoid...so it isn't..."being abused/exploited"?
Again, we have to assume a well balanced implementation for discussions sake. Abuse and exploits seems like a pretty extreme view point.
Kilsin said:
it really is not something that I want to see in Pantheon, especially after what it did to VG.
You must have had a pretty bad experience. That is not what set bonuses have to be. Set bonuses can have some pretty positive benefits (I mention a couple in my post above). Do you have any experiences with set bonuses in other games? It sounds like that one experience is tainting your view.
Set bonuses aren't hard to balance at all. It's no harder to balance than a normal suite of stats on gear. I also didn't really consider Vanguard's set bonuses to be that bad. Did they make previous sets of armor obsolete? Yes they did. However, generic gear with better stats would accomplish the same thing. I didn't see it as being that big of a deal.
I'm with philo, here.
I don't mind set bonuses, but I definitely don't need them either. What I do need is memorable gear that I actually know the name of and remember rather than something I wear for a few days until I get something better and vendor or 'disenchant' it. If set bonuses are going to help that happen, then great. If there -are- set bonuses I'd rather have them augment skills rather than just add stats.
philo said:Kilsin said:
it really is not something that I want to see in Pantheon, especially after what it did to VG.
You must have had a pretty bad experience. That is not what set bonuses have to be. Set bonuses can have some pretty positive benefits (I mention a couple in my post above). Do you have any experiences with set bonuses in other games? It sounds like that one experience is tainting your view.
There were some classes that the 5 piece set bonus from PoTA were extreme. I played a chaos tank with a set bonus of generating hate. If I replaced any pieces to lose that bonus, I struggled to hold agro. I passed on alot of pieces of better gear because stat wise, but that bonus was something I could not lose. We wiz and cleric had 5 pieces that were not as good, and I was able to replace those, but there were some classes it was to valuable.
Not a fan of set bonuses, I want to be able to use any piece of high quality gear without feeling like I'm missing out by not attaining a set bonus. If a piece of gear is good, it's good, period. It increases flexibility and makes people actually think about what they want to use.
I played a Chaos Bard, however, I didn't feel that the set bonus and power afforded by epics and set bonuses was so strong that it didn't follow a pretty linear power curve from APW -> PotA tiers.
I'll admit there were some balance issues between classes but I mean, I still didn't consider it to be that extreme. It was a solid power increase, and given the time/effort/difficulty of PotA content it seemed reasonable.
Just from a basic balancing standpoint it seems like set bonuses can be worked out, but they are often balanced with unfortunate results. I have seen two categories of issues with set bonuses in MMOs, but first, I would like to take an oversimplified example of how it can work without being imbalanced.
Individual stats: Chest item 12 and Leg item 8. Total of 20.
Balanced set stats: Chest item 10, leg item 5 and a set (of 2 items) bonus 5. Total of 20.
The set bonus here is enough to make up for the individual items being less powerful than their non-set counterparts. Most set items I have seen do not follow this approach, but instead give set pieces an advantage over individual gear items.
Stronger set stats: Chest item: 12, leg item 8, and a set bonus of 5. Total of 25.
Another similar pitfall is having out of the ordinary benefits for set bonuses that aren't quantifiable and can result in balancing issues (Gragorie provides specific example above).
Unquantifiable set stats: Chest item 12, leg item 8, and a set bonus of +movespeed.
Significant (even if situational) advantages for set bonuses can streamline players into a single BIS setup. For games that embrace the BIS ladder this is completely fine.
So I ask those of you who are campaigning for set bonuses, WHY do you want them? Do you see having a set (which requires collecting the exact specific items) as being more difficult to acquire and this should reflected in some stat improvement over non-set gear? Do you want sets to be almost balanced stat-wise, but provide the smallest little improvement over individual pieces? Do you want sets to be balanced stat-wise, but just allow your character to be aesthetically coordinated?
No thanks on set bonuses, I want to see alot of different players geared differently. Its one thing to offer a set of armor, with each piece having its only valued stats, but once there is a bonus involved it becomes the defacto, must have set.....thus a watered down, everyone has the same crap experience. I prefer to be able to upgrade a gear slot without worry of losing some set bonus by doing so.
Riply said:No thanks on set bonuses, I want to see alot of different players geared differently. Its one thing to offer a set of armor, with each piece having its only valued stats, but once there is a bonus involved it becomes the defacto, must have set.....thus a watered down, everyone has the same crap experience. I prefer to be able to upgrade a gear slot without worry of losing some set bonus by doing so.
Set bonuses have nothing to do with META gear configuration. It will happen regardless.
Liav said:Riply said:No thanks on set bonuses, I want to see alot of different players geared differently. Its one thing to offer a set of armor, with each piece having its only valued stats, but once there is a bonus involved it becomes the defacto, must have set.....thus a watered down, everyone has the same crap experience. I prefer to be able to upgrade a gear slot without worry of losing some set bonus by doing so.
Set bonuses have nothing to do with META gear configuration. It will happen regardless.
I disagree, stats alone cause people to gravitate to specific gear for a class. Set bonuses makes that even more so. So to say that it has nothing to do with it, is just wrong.
I like Ainadak's approach of balanced and quantifiable bonuses without special effects. When we think of famous weapons or masterfully-crafted armor, it's not so far fetched to think that individual items might be stronger when combined together. It's sort of like giving an armor bonus for equipping a full set of plate. The pieces are designed to work together, so having a slight uptick in their combined value makes sense.
Or, you know, adventuring with dedication to reunite the Amazing Sword of Famous Guy with the Stalwart Shield of Powerful Gal, formerly held by the ruling Brother and Sister of Epic Empire and such. Maybe you get +1 STR or somesuch?
Riply said:Liav said:Riply said:No thanks on set bonuses, I want to see alot of different players geared differently. Its one thing to offer a set of armor, with each piece having its only valued stats, but once there is a bonus involved it becomes the defacto, must have set.....thus a watered down, everyone has the same crap experience. I prefer to be able to upgrade a gear slot without worry of losing some set bonus by doing so.
Set bonuses have nothing to do with META gear configuration. It will happen regardless.
I disagree, stats alone cause people to gravitate to specific gear for a class. Set bonuses makes that even more so. So to say that it has nothing to do with it, is just wrong.
I had a chaos bard as well, I believe she only wore 2 or 3 pieces by the end, and my I don't think my order tank wore any pieces at the end. The sets were not balanced, but that is an entirely different topic. I am not advocating set bonus, just saying that that if they are in game, make sure that are not so overpowered that they can't be replaced at some point.
Riply said:I disagree, stats alone cause people to gravitate to specific gear for a class. Set bonuses makes that even more so. So to say that it has nothing to do with it, is just wrong.
As I showed in my post above, you can balance sets with their bonuses against individual gear pieces. It just requires that each piece of the set is worse than their individual alternatives. Sets are not inherently more powerful than individual items.
Ainadak said:Riply said:I disagree, stats alone cause people to gravitate to specific gear for a class. Set bonuses makes that even more so. So to say that it has nothing to do with it, is just wrong.
As I showed in my post above, you can balance sets with their bonuses against individual gear pieces. It just requires that each piece of the set is worse than their individual alternatives. Sets are not inherently more powerful than individual items.
I get where you are going with this, but it introduces another issue. Lets say I have thet set and I nolonger have the weaker individual items......I'm really gonna suck for me to upgrade after this point because if I replace one items, everything else suffers.
A lot of these responses make me want to facepalm.
Set bonuses are not inherently better or worse for balance than base statistics found on gear. It's all just semantics. A piece of gear that has set bonuses may have overall worse stats than non-set gear. It really is absolutely irrelevant if they are included as far as balance goes. They simply add a neat secondary consideration to some specific gear sets.
It really isn't that hard to understand. As long as there's a healthy mix of both set and non-set equipment with varying levels of power, it doesn't matter. If endgame gear sets have set bonuses exclusively, it doesn't matter. They all need to be balanced regardless.
Set bonuses are not intrinsically imbalanced.
Whether the set bonus is stats or effects...a lot of stats, or a little... is completely irrelevant as long as the set bonus is implemented in a way that is balanced. To have a discussion on most things about an mmo we have to make the assumption that it will be implemented correctly in a manner that won't be game breaking. (if possible...in this case it is entirely possible)
Please let's not get bogged down on discussion of specific stats or effects. It could be epic quest quality armor with a set bonus or it could be lvl 10 newbie armor with a set bonus, the discussion of set bonuses should be the same under the assumption of balance.
I enjoy set bonuses on armor because it can:
1)extend the lifespan of gear (even through multiple expansions)
2)give players a reason to attain gear that would have otherwise not been good enough for a player to equip on a piece by piece basis.
3)give players a reason to replay old content
4)add more variety of gear options for the player. Maybe they want to wear only a few pieces of the set and gain a lesser set bonus as opposed to the whole set etc. Mix and match options.
5)add a greater variety of linear gear progression options which helps to limit stat creep in the long run.
6)satisfy players with a "completist" mentality. Some players will want to complete the set and get the set bonus even if the bonus doesn't add anything super.
I'm sure there are other reasons but that is a good start.
Sarim said:I'd prefer not to have these in the game. First, they lead to "everyone's wearing the same stuff". Second, personally I hate to finally manage to get a set together, only to find a slight upgrade piece a short time later, and then having to decide to keep my set bonus or use the slightly better item :/
This is definitely my experience with Set bonus, everyone ends up with a set of some sort and many end up with the same set. I guess the exception woul dbe ULTRA hard to get stuff. Even with that in mind I still do hope they stay away from cumulative bonus sets!
Good discussion!
Hokanu said:
everyone ends up with a set of some sort and many end up with the same set. I guess the exception woul dbe ULTRA hard to get stuff.
What about the low and mid level stuff with a set bonus? What about the lowest quality grey items with a set bonus? What about the ultra easy to get stuff? and the ultra hard to get stuff that is no drop, scaled to lvl 10...that most people out level much to quickly? What about the set bonus that adds +1 Chr that no one cares about? Understand that what is being discussed is the set bonus itself, not based on any specific gear or stats etc. It is simply the ability to add an extra bonus through equiping multiple items at the same time. The stats could be horrible. That doesn't change the conversation at all.
Stay on target.