Beefcake said:Named camping is a fundamental part of building communities. Several groups may sit at a named mob and workout a rotation together, bonding as a community. If some ****** comes along and and tries to cause problems, the groups already there simply screw with the bad people by training mobs to them or causing them grief until they learn to behave and leave.
The community is better off afterwards.
The KS'er better be able to do 51% of the damage, otherwise the group who is up will probably engage and take it back. Then he'll look like a jerk for trying, and have nothing to show for it.
I have personally always enjoyed camping. It really allows for the group social aspect to come alive most of the time. It's really hard not to have a conversation with your groupmates that are not boxes when camping an area for hours at a time. I had very memorable times over the past few years while camping and using voice chat with teamspeak and ventrillo. The hilarious conversation that arise from camping are a hoot.
I think there should be a balance in game for those that want to camp and folks that want to crawl. Done both in EQ and WoW and both have merits. I personally prefer camps for the social aspect of getting to know people while killing in the same spot for hours, but also having the option to crawl a dungeon to spice things up would be the bee's knees. I'm not asking for instances. After seeing the livestream and how huge that one zone is vertically, I can definately see the potential of certain floors/areas having campable spots while other groups of adventurers could crawl into deeper parts of the same zone to complete objectives and such.
A good example of a zone dynamic enough to support both types of playstyle would be RQ1's "The Hole". In that zone, you can elect to set up an exp camp in a number of different spots in the zone or you and your group can start from the zone in and work your way all the way to the bottom while fighting mobs and different bosses along the way. I really don't see an issue with multiple groups doing both styles in the same dungeon in Pantheon.
I'm sure all the old school EQ1 veterans could talk about numerous fun times they had while camping in the Dreadlands, KC, LoIo, giant fort in FM hoping for a forest loop, or the aviak camps in SK. Man those memories to me are classic.
I am definitely a big fan of both really, you crawl till you find a great spot with either access to names or awesome XP and then move on if the pickings get slim or a better option becomes available. As a group entering a dungeon they all start of as a crawl and then you eventually park your butts where you feel safest to stop or where the going is good! definitely agree that camping is a big positive for social and really allows you to build some friendships and get to know people. Eq Treants were one of my fav camp memories for kicking back and having a laugh and getting rewarded for it nicely!
No body forced us to camp in EQ, we decided to do it. You could crawl all the way you want. It is true you needed to sit for Mana but that doesn't prevent you AT ALL to proceed. Heck, every camp started in a crawl. Camping happened because of Nameds (bosses) people wanted their loot so they camp their spot. That's the main reason that made us camp spots. Either way, to reach that camp you needed to crawl and it was a group decision. Why do you need to control what people choose to do?
What I hate about "modern" MMOs is how they force me to do things i don't want to do. I don't want to run to point A, B, C... you just make me to. I spent hours and hours running just because a forced quest made me do it (a quest that's REQUIRED and mandatory in order to progress) I'm tired of this game concept. Let us do whatever we want to do, why are people/designers are so afraid they just want to control how the game is played. Leave us alone... we decide what we like. I bet you if a game like WoW suddenly removes XP/Item rewards from their quests... very few people are going to do them.
And if you ask ME about camping, I tell you it was way.... way more fun than all the crap I've played the last 14 years.
@Laura
People decided to camp in EQ because it was effective, yes. However, the game wasn't developed from the ground up to facilitate it (to my knowledge). It wasn't part of the vision. That in no way speaks to how good or bad it is as a mechanic, though.
No one is trying to force anyone to do anything. I just find camping to be boring in the EQ sense, where you stand in one place and kill the same repopping mobs again and again. That is inevitable in any game, to an extent, due to nameds popping in static locations. Having the entire group XP game reduced to that is what I'd like to avoid though, if possible.
You also did not always need to crawl to a spot to camp it. Invising past content to reach a camp spot happened pretty often, for better or for worse. These things do need to be taken into consideration by developers. While some things will happen organically, I'm sure, making sure that a variety of playstyles are viable is good.
EQ didn't have dungeon crawling in any meaningful sense. Not until the Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion, which was literally predicated on the concept of dungeon crawling, except it felt very linear and artificial. Vanguard was the last game I played where dungeon crawling felt organic, and also viable. The way the content was designed encouraged you to move, but it didn't force you to.
Sorry for digging up an old thread, but after watching the April 27th stream, I wanted to find this out as well.
As an adult with a job and kids, I can't play the long hours I used to be able to play. One of the things I loved about EQOA was that I could run through a zone to a camp, fill a spot in a group, and grind XP for whatever amount of time I had available. If it were always a dungeon crawl type group, it would be more difficult to bring in replacements, etc. I don't want to spend what precious time I get just trying to get to the group. Not to mention that a static camp is easier to have downtime than a dungeon crawl. If anyone needs a bio break or a kid needs attention, it's nice to know you can just back up and few steps and be relatively safe.
I'm not saying I wouldn't also be up for a good dungeon crawl or other style of xp grinding; I just want to have the option to "stand still" and pop out when my play time is done and get a replacement easily in place.
I like camping in outdoor zones, it seems more natural, you set camp in a place and have a puller bring mobs all over the zone to your group, the tank picks them up you kill them and repeat.
Inside dungeons I definitely prefer crawling, it's more engaging to explore a huge dangerous dungeon, than to sit in a safe spot and grind away. One measure I can think of, to encourage dungeon crawling is diminishing return on the XP, if you kill a certain group of mobs multiple times in a row the diminishing returns start taking effect, encouraging exploration of the dungeon.
jpedrote said:I like camping in outdoor zones, it seems more natural, you set camp in a place and have a puller bring mobs all over the zone to your group, the tank picks them up you kill them and repeat.
Inside dungeons I definitely prefer crawling, it's more engaging to explore a huge dangerous dungeon, than to sit in a safe spot and grind away. One measure I can think of, to encourage dungeon crawling is diminishing return on the XP, if you kill a certain group of mobs multiple times in a row the diminishing returns start taking effect, encouraging exploration of the dungeon.
Don't force me to play the crawl game please. I want to camp.
I've been crawling dungeons ever since EQ classic and I am tired of it.
If all you do is run, you'll never develop the bond you would with an area like if you were "camping". Now camping might mean something broader in this game. Maybe there will be more movement. But when I think of games like GW2 or WoW where all you do is race to your quest goal, and race out, and race to the next quest goal, it makes me want to vomit. Spending time in an area creates lasting memories. "remember that time when..." will never be a thing if you don't stay in one place and gain an attachment to it.
Iksar said:Don't force me to play the crawl game please. I want to camp.
I've been crawling dungeons ever since EQ classic and I am tired of it.
preach it
jpedrote said:I like camping in outdoor zones, it seems more natural, you set camp in a place and have a puller bring mobs all over the zone to your group, the tank picks them up you kill them and repeat.
Inside dungeons I definitely prefer crawling, it's more engaging to explore a huge dangerous dungeon, than to sit in a safe spot and grind away. One measure I can think of, to encourage dungeon crawling is diminishing return on the XP, if you kill a certain group of mobs multiple times in a row the diminishing returns start taking effect, encouraging exploration of the dungeon.
"In EQ" you could crawl a dungeon over the course of days, learning it bit by bit. Perhaps that's an ideal that is no longer achievable with modern gamers' demands and populations, but it was an amazing experience. Also, we have to kepe in mind, that unless the content is just MASSIVE, or they go heavy on sharding, people aren't going to be able to just roam freely through dungeons from one point to another. Maybe in the beginning when pops are low, but on established servers having half a dozen groups doing their own dungeon crawls simultaneously in one zone doesn't seem feasible. Camps help slow the game down and to make the content last.
it mostly depends on how crowded the dungeon is. with many people inside, you can't crawl or you'd inevitably step on each others toes. i like crowded (not overcrowded) dungeons and camping. crawling is an instance thing in my oppinion. in an open world, what's the reason to not stay at the boss camp once you're there? you'd just risk losing the next named to another group.
Camping with Friends as part of a fun evening was great. In EQ it seemed like even though we were camping, we had periods of ease broken up by some terror that almost wiped out the group , being an odd spawn or a train or something like that.
The terror came from the exp loss and the corpse run involved, and the loss of our camp. It made for a good time.
We would do a part of a dungeon, or an outright overland exploration a couple times a week, maybe join a raid three times a month, and the rest was camping, and it was a good time.
Relationships and the bonds of friendship came from camping. We sure did kid each other pretty hard after we got to know each other on those nights camping. It was fun working up the persona and the jaded past of all of our characters and use it as an excuse if one of us screwed up.
I am not advocating a game all about camping, but it had merits. Simple fun and friends is just a good time.
letsdance said:it mostly depends on how crowded the dungeon is. with many people inside, you can't crawl or you'd inevitably step on each others toes. i like crowded (not overcrowded) dungeons and camping. crawling is an instance thing in my oppinion. in an open world, what's the reason to not stay at the boss camp once you're there? you'd just risk losing the next named to another group.
They already spoke about "Shards" which should help with the over crowding. I hope they do it in a way that just doesn't cause people to join a new shard if a specific camp isn't open.
The other issue with crawling is that unless this is like WoW or any other modern MMO where each dungeon is tailored around a specific couple of levels, then a group starting to crawl in a dungeon will hit a wall when they start reaching the higher level mobs deeper within.
Using an EQ example: Blackburrow was a low level dungeon but the level spread of mobs inside were levels 5-15ish. Then you'd have something like Estate of Unrest which was around level 10-33 or Guk which was 5-35.
I thought fighting to a spot deep in a dungeon and setting up camp for a few hours hoping for a rare spawn and some good loot was awesome. That's my preferred style of play. There's just something relaxing about getting to a spot and just settling in to fight. It's also convenient for the occassional afk break and more of a relaxed atmosphere of chatting it up with groupmates in a controlled setting. I definitely don't think that should be the only option in Pantheon, but I think they should have static camps to fight to so people can have that EQ1 experience. Camping helped make EQ1 great, no doubt about that. It also caused some problems, but more good than bad in my book.
Camping for me is much better simply for 1. we have broken an area, can take the camp and get to work... but 2. the socialising while camped made the hours go by and is a point of difference from a lot of the spamfest MMO's out there.
A camp also means that it might take a while for people to learn the zone rather than just trying to wade through it to get to the next zone.
For me there are two types of camps, one where groups get together to grind xp and the other where you camp a mob in an effort to get a specific item. I have fond memories of the former and detest the latter, visions of trying to sit at my computer for days hoping the desired item will drop swim in my head (never again please). I also love exploring and moving around so I hope the game mechanics allow both methods to be viable so it really is up to player preference how they wish to approach the game. The main way I see this being possible is an idea others have put forward where rare mobs are a possible random spawn from many sources. This way you have as much chance getting that mob camping in one location as wandering around. It also helps to avoid content blocking. I would also like to see a move away from specific items dropping and more towards craftable mats dropping so there is more versatility in what is done with the drops and less of a need to camp one very specific spot to get what you need. This would support both those that like to roam and those that like to camp.