So I finally got to watch the stream this morning and I noticed a question that was asked and responded to which mentioned a quaternity. Tank, healer, dps, crowd control. My question here is are we eliminating pulling. I understamd that the streams have been trying to show a lot of content and I am super pleased with what I have seen, however if I am going to sit in one spot and grind for eight hours which I find preferable to constantly having to run around, I would like to have a dedicated puller in the group. I ask because pulling for a group/raid has always been my favorite position in this type of game so I am just wondering if tanks will be the pullers or if there will be other classes with abilities designed for it.
Definitely not - pulling was more of a skill that would help stage and initiate combat, but once mobs were in place, the pullers would immediately revert to some other role -- usually DPS, depending on what class was pulling. It wasn't really a pillar that we think of in the realm of MMORPGs... most people think of Tank/DPS/Healer.... I think the main point in the discussion of a quaternity was to remind people that crowd control was a major part of the actual combat in older games.
Each of the streams has shown a couple of examples of pulls currently (and when things get more complex, and more direction is needed in the group, you can catch them discussing better pull mechanics for the next fight).
EQ was the only game I played that really embraced the pulling role, so when someone talks about pulling I think of a class that can pacify mobs and lose aggro to avoid bringing an ugle group of mobs to the camp. I view pulling and crowd control as a critical role, but you should be putting down some DPS as you cover those roles first. I would just like to see pulling brought back to the mmorpg genre, its a strategic element thats been eliminated lately in the industry.
The thing is that tank, healer, dps, and CC are the roles that are at the core of the classes. That is your primary role. There is no doubt that good pulling will be important in Pantheon, but it should still be a secondary role. It would be wierd to have a class where really the only thing they are good at it is pulling. It is best to have several classes that are definitely capable to pulling but are also even better at something else. Like a tank that can pull, or a dps that can pull.
Iirc, pulling wasn't even an intended mechanic in EQ nor was it a good one. Being able to split things from adds with FD was the only thing that necessitated having a dedicated puller in the first place. I believe this was 100% an unintended side effect of FD that the original devs didn't anticipate, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really like the mechanic because it trivializes content, and removes a lot of potential for talented CC players.
Liav said:Iirc, pulling wasn't even an intended mechanic in EQ nor was it a good one. Being able to split things from adds with FD was the only thing that necessitated having a dedicated puller in the first place. I believe this was 100% an unintended side effect of FD that the original devs didn't anticipate, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really like the mechanic because it trivializes content, and removes a lot of potential for talented CC players.
You're right that pulling was an emergent behavior in EQ that the devs did not anticipate.
I don't think that pulling necessarily trivializes content. At least, it doesn't have to. It's looking like Pantheon will be dynamic enough that pulling will still take a lot of skill and be an important job, but I highly doubt it will negate the need for CC.
Regardless, I repeat that pulling should not be a primary role, therefore it can't be in the same category as tank, healer, dps, and CC.
Liav said:Iirc, pulling wasn't even an intended mechanic in EQ nor was it a good one. Being able to split things from adds with FD was the only thing that necessitated having a dedicated puller in the first place. I believe this was 100% an unintended side effect of FD that the original devs didn't anticipate, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really like the mechanic because it trivializes content, and removes a lot of potential for talented CC players.
Why cant there be both?
With hindsight they could now create content that would highly encourage a good puller to split out groups from large crowds. The group brought back to be killed could still highly encourage CC to manage it.
Liav said:Iirc, pulling wasn't even an intended mechanic in EQ nor was it a good one. Being able to split things from adds with FD was the only thing that necessitated having a dedicated puller in the first place. I believe this was 100% an unintended side effect of FD that the original devs didn't anticipate, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really like the mechanic because it trivializes content, and removes a lot of potential for talented CC players.
There was more than FD pulling for sure. I think bard alone had two or three different types of pulling that, obviously, did not involve FD. Beyond that, Pally/cleric with lull was pretty common, and in a pinch, you could even root split. FD pulling was the most popular in my experience, but the beauty in EQ was there was always several ways to skin a cat (is that a saying? lol). I loved the role of having someone be main puller, and I'm hoping to see that in Pantheon. So, +1 for pulling from me!
I think they both fit in with the bigger umbrella of encounter control the devs talked about in the stream. So good AI + pulls + CC + Environmental Controls = the 3 ways in which to effect a particular encounter. It may be that you only need one, but some encounters might need all 3 hmm?
Side note: Cant wait for Druid reveal. Environmental and Atmospheric controls could be pretty epic. Dont know if I want to be a Druid, but even as an outsider looking in it still sounds awesome. Then again I love unique classes or ones with a different spin.
I think the point of my post was overlooked.
Pulling is fine. FD pulling is not.
FD pulling is an awful, exploity, unintended, buggy, wonky, unintuitive, atrocious mechanic. All other methods of pulling are fair game, to me. The problem with FD pulling is that it was SO effective, as is the nature of most exploits, that it became essentially the primary role of a Monk. A mandatory part of a group for just about every nerd that ever put a group together.
It is also the least necessary role I've ever seen in a game. It's not about taking pulling out of the game, it's about not including the exceptionally exploitable FD pulling mechanic so that one specific class isn't relegated to such a stupid, stupid role.
This also opens up the opportunity to give lazy ass DPS classes some CC to compensate. Rogue sleep darts in Vanguard were super fun to mess with in lower levels.
I dont have an opinion about FD being used that way. I think most Monks probably feel its awesome and not stupid role at all. But Id say that fits squarely in the emergent gameplay zone. And I have to defend that or I would have never have gotten the chance to play my beloved Ninja tank in XI. Ninjas were supposed to be hybrid melee/magic dps. They sort of failed at being very effective at either compared to other classes. Luckily they had a powerful damage mitigation magic and high evasion, and the players turned them into tanks. The devs definitely didnt intend this but allowed it after some minor adjustments to the Utsusemi spell.
So are you against emergent gameplay or just FD?
Since we have basically zero info on how FD will work in Pantheon, I'm not gonna worry about it too much. I agree FD in EQ definitely had its flaws (although I'm not sure I would include split pulling as one of them) I am almost positive that it will work differently in Pantheon so there's no point in assuming it carry the same implications.
Pulling is a fun aspect of the game for me. Screw it up and you could be in a whole lot of trouble, which frankly is what makes it so much fun. But I agree with some in here, if the game is meant to be a Quaternity as the Devs have said, pulling needs to be such that it does not take away from CC. If you screw up a pull, you should need good CC to mitigate that, imo.
Bazgrim said:Liav said:Iirc, pulling wasn't even an intended mechanic in EQ nor was it a good one. Being able to split things from adds with FD was the only thing that necessitated having a dedicated puller in the first place. I believe this was 100% an unintended side effect of FD that the original devs didn't anticipate, but don't quote me on that.
I don't really like the mechanic because it trivializes content, and removes a lot of potential for talented CC players.
You're right that pulling was an emergent behavior in EQ that the devs did not anticipate.
I don't think that pulling necessarily trivializes content. At least, it doesn't have to. It's looking like Pantheon will be dynamic enough that pulling will still take a lot of skill and be an important job, but I highly doubt it will negate the need for CC.
Regardless, I repeat that pulling should not be a primary role, therefore it can't be in the same category as tank, healer, dps, and CC.
Using EQ as a good reference for most of my responce on pulling. Pulling even with a bard monk or SK of old never elimininated the need for CC. In almost every group cc was still needed if you were doing any kind of farming grinding exping. Good pullers just made the job easier. In lue of 3 amdn 4 mob pulls which were chain linked you could get 2. So in lue of every class basicly using some kind of CC root snare stun mez ect you could focus on just burning them down or preping for pulling more mobs. No content was trivialized. If you could kill it you could continue if not you couldnt. If you didnt use everything in your arsonal to win a fight you are doing something wrong.
BTW along the line of CC. Most classes back in the day could cc. And let me put it another way. If i had a wizard in my group that didnt root mobs on a bad pull i would kick him in the head. A 5 mob pull can ruin anyones day if your not ready for it.
I agree with pulling as a secondary role in most groups. Any class can agro mobs. Some classes are just better suited than others to do it. Watching most of the feeds in the current game play thats been released i can say a group should always take into account while building who is going to pull. Its not about making the content easier or allowing a group of lower level or undergeared players to manage content its about the ability to enjoy the game without a corpse run every 20 minutes.
We could go with tetranity/tetranety, from greek four (tetra) instead of latin four (quadro).
I am not sure if this is however a real term, but I think it rolls better than queternity (what does it really mean. Quad-trinity? Quasi-trinity?)
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
Youmu said:We could go with tetranity/tetranety, from greek four (tetra) instead of latin four (quadro).
I am not sure if this is however a real term, but I think it rolls better than queternity (what does it really mean. Quad-trinity? Quasi-trinity?)
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu Svartie
Here is one version for you :)
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/quaternity
"a group or set of four."
"And yet this might not necessarily involve the conversion of the Trinity into a quaternity."
Regardless of what the devs or the forums want to call things, once thousands of groups of six friends start exploring Terminus it's guaranteed that roles will naturally develop - many expected (Qnity, pulling, enchantertaining etc.) and several surprises no one has thought of yet. I can't wait.
Kumu said:Regardless of what the devs or the forums want to call things, once thousands of groups of six friends start exploring Terminus it's guaranteed that roles will naturally develop - many expected (Qnity, pulling, enchantertaining etc.) and several surprises no one has thought of yet. I can't wait.
So very, very true! Me either!!
~MINX
Liav said:I think the point of my post was overlooked.
Pulling is fine. FD pulling is not.
FD pulling is an awful, exploity, unintended, buggy, wonky, unintuitive, atrocious mechanic. All other methods of pulling are fair game, to me. The problem with FD pulling is that it was SO effective, as is the nature of most exploits, that it became essentially the primary role of a Monk. A mandatory part of a group for just about every nerd that ever put a group together.
It is also the least necessary role I've ever seen in a game. It's not about taking pulling out of the game, it's about not including the exceptionally exploitable FD pulling mechanic so that one specific class isn't relegated to such a stupid, stupid role.
This also opens up the opportunity to give lazy ass DPS classes some CC to compensate. Rogue sleep darts in Vanguard were super fun to mess with in lower levels.
FD pulling is exactly as unintentionally buggy, wonky, exploity, etc., as was kiting, root rotting, camping, and a dozen other things that are near and dear to many oldschool EQ players. It's referred to lovingly as emergent behavior, by the devs included. While it's possible to lock the game down and patch out every little things the players figure out how to work around, that would sanitize things to the point that it just wasnt nearly as entertaining.
I personally loved pulling with my necro. I found it interesting and engaging.
I loved pulling with my paladin as well, rooting one mob and bringning another back in hopes that the first would be more or less dead by the time the second showed up. The only difference here is the second mob never shows up. So is that one factor any more buggy, wonky, exploity than root pulling? Hell you could produce the same results with a chanter mez pulling if they got a mind wipe in there. Buggy? Exploity? No. Interesting? Flexible? Dynamic? Hell, yes. I'll buy that twice.