werzul said:why should only a bard/druid/shaman give a speed buff? a warriors encouragement seems just as viable, for example. or a ranger, that should be accustomed to moving quickly in the wilderness.
is it 'because EQ'?
"DING DING DING we have a winner"
"Please tell Werzul what he won today"
"well Kalgore Werzul has one a 3 weeks supply of critisim and complaining about his comment "
I would like to see no mounts at all initially, worst case not till a given level at least. Flying mounts sorta seem like cheating to me, you get to fly over and away from all the mobs that you would normally be aggroing (is that a word?). I guess if there were mobs that attacked you in the air and made it just as dangerous as those on the ground it would be cool. I am for ports and run buffs though, no matter which class might get them. Perhaps not really a logical opinion, but a port can still drop you in the middle of a bunch of mobs.
Gliding, not flying.
Flying kills exploration. Its purpose is to literally fly over content. If you want content in the sky, give us taxis to get us there. Flying should be special, not a commodity.
When a new area is introduced in an MMO, flying is not allowed until X. The reason for this is so that players don't skip new content (or content at all). Having the artificial barriers to flying (no flying is allowed here because you haven't earned an achievement or flying hasn't been released yet for this zone) breaks lore and immersion.
Gliding, however, is amazing. It ENCOURAGES exploration.
"What's the highest launching point I can reach? How do I get there? Where can I glide from there (in this direction)?" Every flight is limited in duration by gravity (immersion). Developers can add winds to buffer or boost speed and distance or pillars of hot air so that players can ride the currents like birds of prey do irl.
I do enjoy gliding (AA was really fun for that), but I still think there should be some airborne mobs you have to dodge or get knocked off your glider and plummet to your death. They should probably have a larger than usual aggro range along the X axis as well. Otherwise, people would simply find the highest spot in every zone, and casually glide over everything, avoiding the intended risk.
Aarpoch said:So what I've taken from this thread thus far is, ney to flying mounts becuase you can "bypass content" but porting via druid/wizard is ok even though it as well allows on to "bypass content". Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to ride a flying mount then..um..don't?
This is never a valid argument. If a certain feature of the game provides an advantage, by nature, if you choose not to use it, you're at a disadvantage. As to the utility point that Werzul brought up because "EQ", I'd counter that as well with an equally sarcastic reply and say "Because Utility." EQ classes are used because they are one of the few reference points available (or FFXI like Amsai said). Both MMOs didn't blur the class lines and let everyone do everything. If Pantheon has a different set of utility based classes than EQ or other games with class interdepdence, then by all means, give it to 3-4 new Pantheon based utility classes. But, once everyone has access to the speed buffs, then, we're back to square one at [insert new age mmo].
As far as flying mounts go, I'm typically 100% aganist as they are used to bypass content. Comparing them to ports is apples to oranges. Ports will typically not drop you specifically on the point where you need to be - whether it is a dungeon, quest step, specific mob, gathering node, etc. And, once that step is done, be able to again fly and move to the next. Also, ports again rely on the community and interaction with players thus engaging in community; whereas, flying mounts appeal more to solo/casual. Now, if flying mounts were ultimately implemented - then I'd want them to have to fly at a level where if you flew over mobs, and those mobs had range abilities - they could shoot arrows/cast spells at you, cast nets, etc. to bring you down. Therefore, making it "much" more difficult to bypass content. I also liked the stamina idea that was previously brought up for mounts.
Raidan said:Aarpoch said:So what I've taken from this thread thus far is, ney to flying mounts becuase you can "bypass content" but porting via druid/wizard is ok even though it as well allows on to "bypass content". Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to ride a flying mount then..um..don't?
This is never a valid argument. If a certain feature of the game provides an advantage, by nature, if you choose not to use it, you're at a disadvantage. As to the utility point that Werzul brought up because "EQ", I'd counter that as well with an equally sarcastic reply and say "Because Utility." EQ classes are used because they are one of the few reference points available (or FFXI like Amsai said). Both MMOs didn't blur the class lines and let everyone do everything. If Pantheon has a different set of utility based classes than EQ or other games with class interdepdence, then by all means, give it to 3-4 new Pantheon based utility classes. But, once everyone has access to the speed buffs, then, we're back to square one at [insert new age mmo].
As far as flying mounts go, I'm typically 100% aganist as they are used to bypass content. Comparing them to ports is apples to oranges. Ports will typically not drop you specifically on the point where you need to be - whether it is a dungeon, quest step, specific mob, gathering node, etc. And, once that step is done, be able to again fly and move to the next. Also, ports again rely on the community and interaction with players thus engaging in community; whereas, flying mounts appeal more to solo/casual. Now, if flying mounts were ultimately implemented - then I'd want them to have to fly at a level where if you flew over mobs, and those mobs had range abilities - they could shoot arrows/cast spells at you, cast nets, etc. to bring you down. Therefore, making it "much" more difficult to bypass content. I also liked the stamina idea that was previously brought up for mounts.
So, since you choose to call porinting utility, that makes it ok to bypass content? I will agree that porting is a bit different in that your landing point is pre-determined, but the end result is still the same: you bypass content. In fact, with porting you can bypass much more content far quicker than by flying. In just a click you go poof from PoK to anwhere on Norrath, or even the moon of Luclin. To me (if i bought the whole bypassing content idea) porting would do far more at bypassing content.
You don't like flying content. I get that, and you are more than entitled to your opinion but the the notion of it being bad becuase it bypasses content simply is not valid in a world where a wizard/druid can cast a spell and send you around the world. Honelsty, if you were to look at it form a persepective of amount of content bypassed porting does far more bypassing than flying possibly could.
@Aarpoch
You brought PoK into the discussion to stress your point, which I never referenced - I would agree that the PoK or Luclin Spires allowed players to bypass content and were more akin to flying mounts. I don't want a PoK type zone. PoK does not equal player cast ports though.
Player ports require you to interact. You have to have druid/wizard friends or guildies, and they have to be on. Or beg, donate, or pay for ports - and rarely did a port in EQ place you at the desired point.
And, I'd be ok with a player needing to unlock the port location in some fashion as well to take it a step further in order for a player to be forced to explore and travel to the area first.
Also, my point on utility was just referencing that ports were seen as a utility spell and not all classes should have access to the same spells and abilities. I didn't mean for it to be interpreted as an argument that utility should allow for content bypass. I stand by my original point on why I feel ports vs. flying mounts are different for bypassing content.
Anyway, I actually enjoy flying and the perspective it gives, just not the repercussions that result due to the system. We'll probably just /agree to disagree on this topic.
I look at the OP's question as:
'What would be needed for Brad and his team to consider put Flying Mounts into Panthown,
given that they take development time and effort to implement,
and that they may well allow players to bypass much of the content?'
and then ask myself.... what would a developer need to hear?
Overview:
Essentially, you need to put restrictions in place to stop players being able to just summon their 'flying horsey' ad hoc and bypass any content as they saw fit. Add to this that you would only want players to be able to bypass content they have already covered before. These restriction would need to maintain class uniqueness (and not erode their interdependences) also have to be internally consistent; they should feel 'reasonalble' from a player's immersion perspective.
Last, you would need a 'positive' for the game to justify the effort. This seems a tall order.
Possible Solutions:
I will approach this backwards, by illustrating specific instances where mounts may prove beneficial....
... and them try to draw a generalization from these.
1. Undersea Mounts
If we envisage an underwater zone (which seems likely), then the possibility of some 'underwater mount' is possible. Since underwater, all players can move in all three dimensions already, this does not have the effect of bypassing content - but of giving a movement buff (and/or providing an air bubble). Thus you might ride your trusty :
Mermaid: (NOTE: Only available in adult version of Pantheon)
Sea Horse: (Cannot ride unless a halfling/gnome. Dwarves can, but slowly)
Porpoise: (No Ogres/Skar/Archai, medium pace for rest, fast for 'little' races)
Orca: (No size restrictions, bugger races go slower)
Whale/Narwhal: (Carries up to 6 players)
2. Island hoppers
(For those who played early EQ, I am thinking Plane of Sky.)
Imagine a zone of open Sky (... falling will not be good!) with Islands dotted here and there in this sky. These islands are the places you need to get to. With limited stamina, your flying mount can only make it as far as some of the nearer islands. There are also flying hazards in the form of chains both running between these isalnds and dangling down from them! Hitting these would injure your mount, likely causing it to be unable to fly!
Once on an island, these hazards, and the creatures on the island, would prove fatal to any mount attempting to fly past them. You would need to sneak/fight your way past the island's inhabitants to get to the other side and find a flight-path clear of hazards that will allow you to fly to another island. From there - onwards and upwards!
Be warned, the air gets thinner the higher you go! Perhaps paying the tollkeeper for a ride in his catapult would be best? However, he only accepts payment in the form of 'hony sacks' which are only found inside the bodies of the 8-foot long carnivorous wasps that infest this island!
3. Riding Shai Hulud
(If you have read 'DUNE', you know where I am going!)
Deep in the southern desert, there are many hazards. Travel is also very slow - the deep sand drags on your feet. It is said that the natives of this land have found a quick (albeit dangerous) way to travel quickly through parts of the deep desert. They do this by getting a ride on the back of the Great Worms (think worms bigger than the size of a modern train) and ride atop it (think pictures of Indian commuters on top of these trains crossing their country)
Here we have the mechanic of players (whole groups) being able to hitch a ride on the back of these huge monsters ....
... if you can attract them (need a 'thumper')
... If you can get on board (need a set of 'hooks' and climbing)
... If you can stop it diving under (need good 'riding skill' for lead player)
These would effectively constitute 'travel lines' between points, but require players to summon them, mount them, ride them and finally dismout. All these need skills. Skill that would need to be learned from the natives. These would need to be befriended (faction). You would also need gear... bought or crafted. The crafted versions would need a template to be got from the locals (faction etc) and some of these items (eg 'Thumper') are 1-use and so need to be repolenished.
In effect, you would need to have already crossed these deserts many times in order to find, and raise faction, with the locals. By the time you have mastered these skills/gear you will merely be able to bypass some of the content between set places which you have encountered many time before. The nature of these sklills etc fix them to this (set of) zones and so only has impact in this area. The 'mounts' are here, not something you carry about with you. they live here, and only here.
These are only 3 ideas I considered where mounts might work well. You may have more!
From these, I can generalise that:
If the 'mount' is fixed/resident to a location:
It doesn't inherently allow bypassing of content until that content is trivial (by implementation).
It is also strictly limited to that region/zone.
It can increase engagement/interaction in that area
It can link in to crafting/economy positively
Evoras, thinks thats enough for now!
very cool ideas @Evoras. it's a nice different point of view.
when i hear flying mounts i automatically think about my own flying mount like in wow (which i absolutly dont want in pantheon). i set it to a direction, press numlock and go grap a coffee ;).
i guess you all saw "the hobbit" movie. Anyone else wonder, why the eagles didnt bring the dwarfs directly to the lonely mountain? of course, because otherwiese the whole advernture would be lost.
i think the same effect would have flying mounts in pantheon.
Raidan said:@Aarpoch
You brought PoK into the discussion to stress your point, which I never referenced - I would agree that the PoK or Luclin Spires allowed players to bypass content and were more akin to flying mounts. I don't want a PoK type zone. PoK does not equal player cast ports though.
Player ports require you to interact. You have to have druid/wizard friends or guildies, and they have to be on. Or beg, donate, or pay for ports - and rarely did a port in EQ place you at the desired point.
And, I'd be ok with a player needing to unlock the port location in some fashion as well to take it a step further in order for a player to be forced to explore and travel to the area first.
Also, my point on utility was just referencing that ports were seen as a utility spell and not all classes should have access to the same spells and abilities. I didn't mean for it to be interpreted as an argument that utility should allow for content bypass. I stand by my original point on why I feel ports vs. flying mounts are different for bypassing content.
Anyway, I actually enjoy flying and the perspective it gives, just not the repercussions that result due to the system. We'll probably just /agree to disagree on this topic.
Another thing about ports was that at least in Original Era to Luclin, they RARELY dropped you where you were actually going. Just a little closer. You usually always still had to run several zones to get to your destination. And Kunark has all of 3 port areas. One was a LONG run to anywhere popular, and 2 were into higher level zones where you were in some danger even upon zone in. They were a convenience at best, but didn't break the game in any way.... early on at least.
My experience with flying mounts was in WoW. I thought it was cheapening. First run-in was while I was a low level shaman out collecting herbs and repeatedly, a guy would swoop down ot of the sky directly on top of some flowers and harvest them then POOF fly away before I could even find a way to climb the hill they were on. Next, I was harvesting the same way in Outland... just land on top of some ore, harvest and go. Zero concern for where I was.
Porting might get you from A to B faster, but that's all it does... all at the devs discretion. Unless people are only playing in port areas, your bypass of content is limited. Unless severely limited, flyign mounts let you skip over ANYTHING at YOUR discretion. Maybe it's not like that in all games, I've only seen it in WoW. And, I guess Aion, but there, it was more of a situational ability... not a means of travel.
IT's not a question of yes/no flying mounts. There are threads on that already.
The OP.
Zorkon said: I'm against flying mounts for the main reason (like many) of bypassing content. If VR was to implement flying mounts in the game I would hope they would add hazards to it where it would have risk and might not be everybody's goto to bypass content. Some I'm thinking of Lightning Pterodactyl's Thick Clouds What other deterrent could be used to balance travel between land and air?
@EVORAS I always love your post, you put so much thought into them. In the OP I mentioned I prefer no flying mounts, my reason for that is the (shall I call it) "clutter" arround the town, people not dismounting to use the bank or mailbox or merchants etc. Your suggested solution to keep from bypassing content covers that problem as well... I read it as no personal mounts that could be brought into town, but more "if you want to fly/ride accrost the zone you must first catch the chicken"
Beautiful!
Aarpoch said:So what I've taken from this thread thus far is, ney to flying mounts becuase you can "bypass content" but porting via druid/wizard is ok even though it as well allows on to "bypass content". Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to ride a flying mount then..um..don't?
i think the point is socialization. Actually communicating with people go take you places makes for a better community imo. adding flying mounts turns communities into mutes. That's my opinion Though. Flying mounts in wow was just a way to get from node to node faster and mine/pick herbs as fast as posisble. Fast traveling as a norm, no. And if each individual can do that then that isn't good for community relations. Again. My opinion.
+1 for no flying ever. it ruins the whole game.
Oxillion said:Baldrith said:If there is no flying, then the world must be really small. I love flying in a game. Vanguard had a vast world, and even with flying it took a long time to get from one area to another. It was fun traveling thru a beautiful world on a flying mount.
Oh yes! It was a fun expereince to me. I still wnat my flying dragon I hatched from an egg and raised...LOL I will catch hell for that one again..
Ox
That hatching a mount from an egg reminds me of the Creature Handlers in SWG (before they went and removed a lot of classes for the "Iconic" characters) I spent some time later on in the game hatching creatures in incubators (they modernized it to incubations) and I have to say I was quite motivated to try and create the rare pets/mounts. Spent hours and hours over that skill. Would like to see that again, maybe VR will have a look at that? :)
Cana
Reposting my other post under "Mounts-
I hear mount talks and I live in fear that the major hubs in Pantheon will start to resemble Orgrimmar in WoW. No Thanks...
It is something that can get out of control and I think VR knows this. I think a big focus will be allowing everyone to experience the world first hand, first time around. A lot of foot travel and then eventually, higher levels, getting ground mounts. Could be faction, dropped, etc...
I am still not a fan of flying mounts, even though I hear arguments about how fun it is to fly over the world. I would be more of a fan of gliding later in the game (fun, limited air time unless advanced AAs etc..) You could even make certain areas only attainable by gliding over to it, which players would have to build up to...
So I am not opposed to ground mounts later in the game that make travel that much easier and more rewarding. In my mind, they would have degrees of speed, adjusted by AAs or something similar... BUT if Bard's follow EQ one, they will probably have the highest travel speed when maxed out or highest travel skill. That makes them special like they were before. Mounts built up would have the 2nd fastest speed ect...
This is where my mind is going with mounts... May be off track from some of you.
I would just like to remind everyone that we have answered the question about mounts, please take some time to read through the new FAQ as many things have been updated.
19.1 Will there be mounts and other ways to increase a player’s travel speed?
Yes, there will be a variety of mounts, as well as spells and abilities that can be obtained which increase travel speed. Players will also be able to acquire items for their characters that allow them to climb vertical surfaces.