I'm new here, but I haven't seen this posted before. Forgive me if it is a dupe topic. I'll also note that death penalty factors into the feelings I describe here, but I'll leave that topic in the threads where it exists.
Zone content should have a wide level range. Themepark MMOs do not do this and it is one of their biggest problems. Zones where the content is all around your level give no sense of danger or accomplishment. It is just farm time. With a wide variety, you need to be wary when traveling that you might run into something really nasty - it makes moving from place to place an adventure instead of a chore.
Additionally, this sets up many encounters between higher level and lower levels that don't usually happen in most MMOs. I remember so many things that happened in my EQ early days that were incredibly exciting and gave me something to look forward to. When you are a newb farming rats and skeletons in East Commonlands and see a group of level 30's take down a Hill Giant. Watching the higher levels destroy the crocs and eventually spectres in Oasis as you farm junk very carefully. Watching a higher level team move past your trash farm in cazic thule to go after the unknown deeper in where you don't dare tread. Seeing a huge guild raid TP into commons to get set up. All these things motivated me to continue and eventually I was the high level doing those things, tossing coppers at the newbs who marveled at my gear, abilities, or spells.
In most games the elite never have a chance to mingle with the newbs. EQ classic did a great job of constantly forcing encounters and made the game much more enjoyable.
This would indeed be nice. It would be great to something in each zone to attract higher level players, a dungeon, raid, vendor or something to do with tradeskills. It would keep all zones busy and give that sense of a living breathing world that a lot of MMO's lose after they have been played for a while.
IMO all zones need a minimum of 2 level ranges for content. EQ did this very well, as the poster stated. Looking at EC, WC, Nro or OOM (the 4 FreePort-linked starter and feeder zones) you need only look at the level range for mobs. The 'main' parts of these zones has a small range of mobs aimed as direct intake from the previous zone (n this case the newbie yard), but other mobs - whether in small clusters or as roamers were much higher.
EC / NRo : Lev 5-15 / Lev 5-30
WC / OOM : Lev 5-40 / Lev 5-30
Just by examining these 2 sets of 2 zones, you can see that though their 'main content' was to bring players from starting at level 4-7 up to leaving at levels 16-20, they also included *much* higher content. This included 'named' mobs which were random spawns within camps, but +4 levels higher than expected to roaming destroyers (as the griffs in EC were).
The only thing missing from these zones was more of an incentive to drop into dungeons such as Befallen (level 7-25+).
It would have been nice to have had Najena (level 5-30) in Oasis of Marr rather than Lavastorm.
As VR then add 'expansions', I hope they 'sub-infeudate' content. I.e. add extra content within the existing zones, as extensions to them if needed, to ensure players re-use the starter and feeder zones forever. It would be nice if the concept of horizontal expansion within the map/world system is considered from day #1.
In EQ terms, imagine if a 'rockfall' suddenly revealed a sealed dungeon in the tunner between EC and Nro. This might be the equivalent level as Sol A (20-40) and Sol B (35-50). Now we have a reason for players fighting in far off zones to come back towards home and investigate these new dungeons.
So, as the posters above have said, YES please. ensure that zones have longevity for the players 'levelling' in them *and* to attract higher levels to revisit, or *need* to revisit them.
The general topic may have been brought up, but I don't remember it as a topic unto itself. Yes. I agree with your thoughts, as it keeps higher level players coming back to the beginnings and keeps adventuring very interesting for lower level players.
"My name is Bloodbeard Battlecaster and I approve this message!"
agreed, especially in terms of dungeon areas,
imagine ancient ruins, easy enough to fight through (lvl 10), but entering a crypt gets more dangerous (lvl 20), going beneath the crypt even worse (lvl 30), the caverns beneath the crypt more dangerous still (lvl 40), the cavern leads to an even more ancient sepulchre (lvl 50) , which leads to the deap abode of some demon (RAID)....so on and so forth
now, imagine if Pantheon's percaption system was a part of this, as well
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:The general topic may have been brought up, but I don't remember it as a topic unto itself. Yes. I agree with your thoughts, as it keeps higher level players coming back to the beginnings and keeps adventuring very interesting for lower level players.
"My name is Bloodbeard Battlecaster and I approve this message!"
/yup agree and welcome back bloodbeard, haven't seen you posting in a while, good to see ya active again :)
I agree. I've always said I support zones having a reason for higher levels to come back and visit/go through them, etc. When I played MMOs in my younger days, it was always so cool to see all the higher levels running around and to try to help them in some small way (heals, dps filled with lots of "miss" or "resisted" on their targets, and so on.)
I think the best way to do it is to have zones where the farther you go from the "civilized" areas, the higher level and more dangerous the enemies. Like imagine a zone with a capital city. There are four roads going out in cardinal directions north, east, and west (perhaps south of the capital is the harbor and a ship traveling to some far off port or some allied capital city, who knows?) There is a well traveled and wide road going north to a decent sized town, and the east and west roads are smaller and both go to smaller hamlets. The west is a small fishing village while the east is nestled against a mountain side and is a booming gold and precious metal mining town, perhaps with a coal branch to fuel the fires of industry. The town to the north is on a Y junction with the northeast and northwest forks both going to smaller outposts. The town proper is a decent sized community of farmers, and outside the town are fields of crops, more towards the south, though, but a little ways outside the city to the north. Perhaps the northeast one is a small military expeditionary fort more than it is a city while the northwest path goes to a frontier town of trappers.
So, right around the capital, you are mostly going to find low level enemies - rats and bunnies, the occasional wild dog. Low level players can grind here safely enough, and also find sparse, low quality wood and perhaps ore.
Going to the east or west, you'd find that if you stick to the road, you're mostly safe. Again, bunnies and rats. Maybe some traveling NPC merchants willing to lighten your backpacks (or your coinpurse). If you get more than a dozen paces off the road, you'd find some fields of farms near the capital, but as you get farther away, you're more likely to find some mostly benign wolves and the rare level 5ish bandit. Go more than 50 paces, though, and you're likely going to be staring down a grizzly bear.
Anyway, getting to the west town, you find it's a fishing village where they'll teach you the trade, though at your skill you aren't going to find the best fish since the better fishermen that make their trade there know the tricks to get the better fish. Around the town you can find more mid-grade wood, though the terrain doesn't do much for ore. The area around the town is safe enough, but again, you run into the wolves then bears then ogres the farther you travel. Likewise, had you traveled east, you would have seen forest give way to rock to mountain, and the enemies of that terrain like cyotes and meaner wolves.
Had you gone north, you would have set out across fields of benign farmland as far as you could see, with naught but level 2 and 3 gophers everywhere. But, of course, if you get far enough off the wide road of large flagstones and away from the city's walls, you'd start to run across roving bandit troupes and the occasional pack of wild...chickens.
This is mostly the way of it until you get to the north city, of course, since that's the most well protected and guarded road - indeed, there were NPC city guards here and there traveling the road to keep it (relatively) safe for the smallfolk.
But, striking north further than the farming town you find the road quickly becomes not much more than glorified dirt track. To the northwest you end up in a trapping town on the edge of the wild. Trees are abundant here, and some ore. As much and more than either are animals you need a group to attack if you're less than level 20. After all, these are the wild lands. Leaving this town in any direction or straying farther than a stone's throw from the track road will get you into fights with animal or uncivilized sentient (trolls, ogres, you get the general gist of it). Might not want to come this way until you're in the teens. If you're in the twenties, you've found a new home.
Had you gone northeast instead, you'd have found a fort in need of some aid as it guards the border with the orcs. In the distance on the mountainside, you can see a crude keep of sharpened wooden spikes and the occasional pike that...looks like it has...surely those aren't HEADS...surely not. The garrison is always willing to accept help, be it healing the injured out on (or coming back from) patrol or joining a patrol, or even going it yourself or with your party (though the commander strongly cautions you not to go out alone unless you're VERY well prepared). Hey, once you're level 30, it might be a good time to gather a party of yourself and 5 friends and go see what you can do about that orc keep up there...
Of course...there's everywhere ELSE in the zone that isn't on the road. Had you treked due north from the fishing village, perhaps you would have run across a large bandit camp...that is actually the staging ground for a doomsday cult that intends to sack the capital once they gain enough strength - several strong parties of level 40s acting together might be able to do something about that. Or going north from the mining town two days' ride would have taken you to the entrance to a massive stone giant keep that no one less than 50 adventuring seasons with a raiding company of 72 companions is likely to travel into and survive.
Of course, you could have split this into six zones instead (the cultist stronghold and stone giant keep zones might just not have a friendly city at all, or might have some little frontier military outpost barely more than a guard tower, pallisade wall, and several lean-to shacks functioning as fletcher, basic blacksmith, camp cook, and a combination barracks/townhall/war hall in the center of the camp.)
The point is to have a gradient within the zones that gives players of all levels something to do in the zone.
As a low level character, I don't mind being terrified to go more than 20 feet off the road...as long as there's something worth doing it FOR once I gain the levels and friends to do it with. And I also like the idea of having a world with a slope to what you're going to encounter. Close to a capital city, you SHOULDN'T be encountering all kinds of crazy hostile high level mobs - after all, it's the capital of your nation. The military will have their strongest presence there defending it! But as you travel away from civilization, away from the various towns or far off the roads, you're more and more going to find nastier things that haven't been cleared out by the military (for larger towns and, obviously, capitals) or the militia (of small villages). Indeed, even forward camps or military outposts on the frontier, they're more concerned with standing watch than clearing the local area of wildlife. After all, what idiot citizen is going to come trapsing into the northeast wilderness under the shadow of an orc mountain fortress? Oh, right...YOU!
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Anyway, this is, perhaps, just the way I think. But I try to think "If this were real life, how would this work?"
And this is about how it would work. Capital and nearby hamlets well defended, smaller towns farther out less so, main roads well maintained and defended, farms around the capital and along major (safe!) roads, and the farther and farther out you go, the more likely you are to run into something that will attack you, try to eat you...or worse. And then you have little military outposts along the frontier of the nation's claimed lands, more to keep a watch for invaders than anything else (after all, as stated before, the bulk of the military is at and around the capital. They have these scouts and outposts to give early warning, not to directly stop invasion all alone...)
Agree 100% most definitely a wonderful fond memorys as both the person running away as low level player from the big mobs and also the person saving the lives of those running as a high level!
Oasis - /shout SG to the docks someone please help!!!!
And as Todd said the fear these mobs brings adds such an awesome element to being a lowbie in the zone... you better be listening carefully so you can hear the thundering footsteps of giants or the wings flapping and the screeching of a griffon from a far!
@Renathras Your right regarding where they should be wandering... but i would not like it to become too predictable as to where you may expect to find them, i would say (giving EC as an example), it is relatvely griffon free up till the first set of inns and then its a bit hairy from then on.. and the mobs should be roaming freely in that area about i think it was about 3/4 of zone was dangerous in this way. There is only really need for a couple of these sorts of mobs to keep newbies on ther toes and with fast respawn timers to keep the high levels happy, no one would have wanted 10 griffs going ballistic in EC lol.. funny to watch though i am sure!
Well, I didn't mean there would always be a spawn there. More like:
Around the capital/within 40 yards of major roads: Level 1-3 creatures, low level resource nodes (hospitable land like farms)
Around larger country towns/within 40 yards of minor roads, 40-100 yards from major roads: Level 3-7 creatures with second tier resource nodes (more open country praries or forests)
Around small hamlets, 40-100 yards from minor roads, 100-200 yards from major roads: Level 7-15 creatures, level 20-25 rare spawns* second and some third tier resource nodes, perhaps small overworld dungeons like enemy scouting camps and the rare friendly "military outpost" class of town (level 20-25 guard NPCs, simple vendors, a few small buildings, and a high guard tower to view the surrounding areas from the top of). (near-wilderness of non-cleared forest land, more "wild west" untamed spaces)Around 40-100 yards from hamlets, 100-200 from larger contry towns, "far" from capitals: Level 15-30 creatures, with the 25-30s being parts of moderate sized overworld dungeons, and the occasional level 40 roving random spawn (uncivilized lands not claimed by any country, though possibly having bandit camps or the rare trapping or wilderness hunter or ranger or druid lodge/grove/etc., the very rare military expedition camp might be found in some locations, mostly a small group of scout outriders with maybe a vendor and small camp for resting.)
Around 100+ from hamlets, >200 from large country towns, or "very far" from capitals: Level 30-40 creatures, 40-45s in overworld dungeons, and the entrences to various raids and even possible max level overworld raid boss spawns (total, untamed wilderness. Civilization isn't known in these lands.)
Granted, yards is too small of a number and mostly here for the sake of scale, but maybe you get the point I'm trying to make: Around major civilization hubs, the danger level is lower, but the resource spawns are also more mundane. Only as you get farther and farther from the well beaten path, you start to find first random and then generally present higher level enemies, drops, resources, and first camps then small dungeons then large dungeons and then raids, as well as random spawns several level brackets higher than their area would suggest, always keeping players on their toes, even at the max level areas.
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*I tend to think of this like...when I first REALLY started playing WoW was when BC hit and I made a BE. Their second zone (level 10-20) had these two level 25 abominations that would rove around. It was always crazy when you were minding your own business questing and they come seemingly out of nowhere and you run for your life. There was even a quest giving a nice ring or some such for killing them both and returning their heads to the bounty. Back then, high level characters would visit the zone (because there was that raid in the south east corner) and would help low level characters by forming parties with them and killing the things for quest credit or to just save a lowbie from an untimely death.
It was that sense of danger and adventure - even though it was well known and arguably almost "scripted" (EVERYONE knew Knuckleroot and Luzron, I think their names were?), it was still super intense as a low level. And then going back months/years later and being the high level character able to sneeze at them and kill them. Wonderful sense of progression. It's like that quote about the point of science (or something) being "To travel and learn, then return to the place you started, understanding it for the first time"? (I don't remember the exact quote, but you get the basic idea.)
I agree, i will never forget first time i fell through an area in freeport and was surrounded by enemies 3x my level. Luckily a guildie (a necro named Phineas) took time to come save my poor wood elf arse...I Loved areas being ok but take a wrong turn and...well you know the squeal like a pig story. We all learned that their were certain areas you just did not go, this lent a sense of realism and believability to the world. Kithicor by day..ok, by night...well you better have SoW and know the pattern to run your arse off.
A lot of the old games made things far more dangerous at night (even EQ2 had some of that initially) and I liked that. A harmless noob zone during day but during night bad things come out.
You can of course overdo things, the zones should be dangerous but if every third mob in the noob zone requires the noobs just too run away that actually is less scary then a few rare nasty predators who roams the place. Lure us into false security before striking, that sends the fear of the gods into the players. :)
I think one of the issues regarding updating zones in future expansions is that not everyone purchases the expansions at the same time so it makes it difficult to have those with the expansions be able to play side-by-side with those without the expansions. Zone differentiation makes it much simpler to lock out those that don't have the expansions.
I think orignal EQ2 (my first MMO btw) made a good job in Antonica/Commonlands. Nice and easy solo stuff near the city, ranging up to the non aggro ^^^stags that you always pulled by mistake solo but were great for a party. But there was always the chance of bumbling into Holly Windstalker or one of the betrayal quest mobs. Maybe even the rare spawn epic dragon.
loke666 said:A lot of the old games made things far more dangerous at night (even EQ2 had some of that initially) and I liked that. A harmless noob zone during day but during night bad things come out.
You can of course overdo things, the zones should be dangerous but if every third mob in the noob zone requires the noobs just too run away that actually is less scary then a few rare nasty predators who roams the place. Lure us into false security before striking, that sends the fear of the gods into the players. :)
Those damn brownies in lfay!!
I hate dying, ever under any circumstances, so I can't fully agree. If I am in a low level zone I want to enjoy the ambiance, the sound, the view, maybe even talk to other players and not have to be constantly alert for a mob 30 levels higher than I am. Respect the mobs around me, certainly. Understand that they can kill me, and that they may not be soloable, certainly. But being one-shot by a mob so powerful I have no hope of even running away - no thanks. Pissed me off no end in EQ2 or certain other games when mobs were level 5, level 5, level 5, level 80, level 5 .....
You all make valid points about the logic of mixing mobs around and not necessarily limiting a zone to e.g. levels 5-9.
But please give the low levels doing low level things in a low level area a break! Don't have a level 50 mob camping the tree under which is the box I need for a level 7 quest. That isn't excitement it is griefing. If part of a zone is level 5 and part is level 30 all well and good but give the level 5 a warning (sign on the ground - dangerous area - heck in LOTRO there were quests for players to put such signs up - or 30 feet or meters or yards of clear separation so the level 5 gets a view of the level 30 mobs from outside of their aggro radius).
dorotea said:I hate dying, ever under any circumstances, so I can't fully agree. If I am in a low level zone I want to enjoy the ambiance, the sound, the view, maybe even talk to other players and not have to be constantly alert for a mob 30 levels higher than I am. Respect the mobs around me, certainly. Understand that they can kill me, and that they may not be soloable, certainly. But being one-shot by a mob so powerful I have no hope of even running away - no thanks. Pissed me off no end in EQ2 or certain other games when mobs were level 5, level 5, level 5, level 80, level 5 .....
You all make valid points about the logic of mixing mobs around and not necessarily limiting a zone to e.g. levels 5-9.
But please give the low levels doing low level things in a low level area a break! Don't have a level 50 mob camping the tree under which is the box I need for a level 7 quest. That isn't excitement it is griefing. If part of a zone is level 5 and part is level 30 all well and good but give the level 5 a warning (sign on the ground - dangerous area - heck in LOTRO there were quests for players to put such signs up - or 30 feet or meters or yards of clear separation so the level 5 gets a view of the level 30 mobs from outside of their aggro radius).
The stream never seemed to suggest that the low lvl mobs and high lvl mobs would be right next to each other. That would be unplayable. They will be in the same zone, but they will more or less be separated into different parts and areas of that zone. So like low lvl camps in the south east and high level camps in the north. That sorta thing. So you'll still see high level groups running by and stuff and you won't be able to stray too far from the path, but they won't be right on top of you. I disagree that there should be signs. People often remember things best when they learn it the hard way. Caution signs and warning labels belong in theme parks. Survival of the fittest! If you really hate dying that much, I predict you will be frequently frustrated in this game haha.
I really enjoy zones with multiple level ranges and to a certain extent I understand "dorotea's" point as there should be some seperation.....where I differ from that opinion is on rares or random spawns at are intended to mix things up and keep you on your toes. One of the things I loved most about EQ1 was that litterally every zone had some type of named random spawn that could wipe the floor with your a$$ if you did not pay attention. In most cases if you just paid attention to where you were grinding you were fine, other then West Commons that conveniently had the giant pathed right next to the main low level exp camp, but honestly I liked that as well. Heck I remember going back to areas when I was higher level just to settle the score, different strokes a suppose.
clintonsaty said: Absolutely loved that EQ1 had roaming mobs that you were scared of. It made you pay attention and gave you goals to "pay back" those pesky high level newbie killers. I think I had a good chuckle in EQ2 over Holly Windstalker's grave...
I'm so glad Pantheon is bringing this sort of thing back.
I know the discussion has focused primarily on mixed level ranges within zones to keep lowbies and high levels near each other, but I'm hoping it will be more complicated than that. Using the climate and perception systems, as well as the more typical tradeskill systems, I hope that the dev team can create a world in which coming back to zones is often for the purpose of discovering things you could not do previously.
For example, in the lore there are several races (the Archai most prominently) who have deep traditions of song and dance, both for cultural unity but also for passing down history (they were originally created to be slaves). I would love to see such a deep tradition unfold in a series of quests (not large ones, just basically vignettes) which are unlocked through levelling the perception system, which itself would necessarily require travelling and becoming a higher level. As most npc Archai would be in starting towns and villages these higher level players would travel through seeking knowledge.
As for the climate system, it seems pretty self-evident that quite a few races (the Dark Myr, Dwarves, perhaps the Gnomes in their flying rock) live in areas that themselves are subject to lower to mid levels of incliment climate. I'm hoping that, as a result, players in the mid- and high- level ranges who are beginning their attunment to the various climates would travel to these places naturally, not just to level but to engage with other systems in place. I bet it would be funny for a lot of lower level dwarves (with their innate cold resist, albeit modest) to see a high level Skar or something complaining about how what they consider mild weather to be such a pain in the neck to acclimatize to.
I dunno, I just would love to see many reasons for people to be at any given place, not just experience ranges.