CelevinMoongleam said:@Reive
I would much rather have the dev team put there effort into bringing to pass Elrandir's point, than into implementing dailys, or duty officers.
Oh no one said anything bout no dailys. Last thing we need. However coming from someone who got drunk off the Vanguard kool-aid, dont mind my pessimism, but resources should be put towards making quality content....that includes ALL content. Notice how people are getting worked up over solo/group content and we aint even talking about raid content, you know that thing everyone hates talking about ;)
having 'at level' mobs that are somewhat easier, or soloable, seems reasonable, and realistic.
want to fight well armed, battlehardened orcs? by all means a group should be needed.
a wolf or some suchother animal, not so much. some areas with 'easier' mobs with a much lower return on xp, shouldnt break the game, or make it for noobs, or whatever.
as was stated earlier, someone who just wants to do a little killing for 20-30 mins, shouldnt be SOL. next play session they may have a few hours to kill, and wait for a group, etc.
the 'old hands' need to set the example. telling people deal with it or 'go back to WoW' doesnt help the game or community. rejecting someone because 2 months into release the class they chose is deemed trash and they will struggle to find groups doesnt help, either.
i frankly am not sure who really thinks that this game will thrive, or even survive, if its a group for several hours or gtfo scenario. it doesnt hurt people who group up all the time to have people that solo at a much dcreased xp rate to exist.
I don't think this is going to be a huge problem, there will be stuff for tools to do while waiting for groups traveling to your next desired leveling destination will take most of that yime. It is possible that there will be multiple zones of lvl in however exploration will foremost and i am betting that you are going to want to go hunting for the next place to call home as soon as you out level or start not making enough exp in a certain location.
Add to this tradeskills, selling, banking, helping guildees and friends, and general exploring I think that for at least your first playthrough will be full of stuff to do.
In most games nowa days there are guilds inviting newbies left and right.. if Johnny turns them down and wounders why he can't find help or a group then maybe that's a little of his own fault? If you can't find something to do in this game I'm guessing your probably blind... exploration alone is one of their main keys.. and like many have said just sitting in town bs'iing and buffing people was hella fun to me or even outside group tanking because I was just too over leveld for friends or even randoms until I found groups was hella fun...
bottom line.. if the core concepts of the game aren't keeping them enticed and it's only dailies they are probably going to go back to their everybody gets a medal of a game that also has dailies...
Pendragen, you can only explore for so long. All of Pantheon will be spoiled well before the game comes out. EQ was very different in that aspect, being in a different time and era.
Anyone that says they did not just stand around EC tunnel or in town hours on end with nothing to do is lieing. Back then it was no biggie, but gaming is much much different now.
As someone that just releveled on the EQ progression server Phinny and played a rogue, i can say if i was not the active one making the groups i would have been in trouble even guilded, even with the shitty exp there i still managed to be one of the first 60's. I watched many people struggle though on a game that has been well spolied for 17 years.
I am not saying we need a daily quest blah blah, just daily little bs things to do besides the stuff you listed above.
Again 99% of this does not apply to us here, but us here are not the ones that will keep this game alive in the long run, we are just the most passionate. Never underestimate the power of the meat and potatoes.
Trade Skills, quests, trading, buffing newbies, socializing, helping guildies etc. could be all in-game things that could be done in the 5-10 minutes while you wait. Also, Brad has already stated here that some overland mobs will be able to be soloed - although, like EQ, some classes will be significantly better than others for the sake of class interdependency.
VRI doesn't need to design "things to do" in the downtime like daily quests in order for players to stay busy, they need to foster an environment that breeds players to have the ability to create their own things to do. If you try to design every minute of gameplay to have "something to do" you're going to get the job-like treadmills of MMOs today where you feel forced to login for the 30 minutes or fall behind.
And... there's always the ability to Alt+Tab and plan your next month of progression out. I can't tell you how many times I read wikis, or planned the next dungeon I wanted to visit and drooled over my wish list items while I was WTS/WTB or /Shouting 25 Warrior LFG (Have Magic Weapons!)
I'm not even sure where daily quests because a part of a discussion or if people asking for it. What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
Tralyan said:zewtastic said:Why should it be resolved? Trying to make a game everything to everyone is usually what screws things up.
Kind of siding with Zewtastic here.
I'd hate to sound elitist, or snobbish, or any other general term thrown at someone who envisions something a certain way, but why? We ARE the target audience. They've had their turn. They've had their Gems.
slow clap*
I don't think the DEVs need to do more (as far as zone construction is concerned) than ensure zones for levels 1-10 have some wandering trash moibs. They do not need to be plentiful, then do not need to be more than green and cerainly should be mixed in with other less safe solo fodder.
While I imagine most of us (as old hands) understand the concept of grouping: interacting in groups, group etiquette (need before greed, don't run off after 5 mins etc), it is the newer player brought up on a stready diet of instant-gratification-while-solo-silently that we should be concerned about. They just don't know.... yet.
Education is key!
To this end I hope VR puts in tutorials or offers a starter-guy quest, or ANYTHING that helps to get people on the right path:
1. go kill yard trash until you ding, then go get new skills etc (but not step by step, lead by the nose)
2. go out of starter area and join a group... go on.... do it! Now talk to the people... awesome, huh?
3. go start your own group now... etc
Not saying it should lead you by the nose, but I do think VR should be aware that people out there may not understand what groups are, let alone how to behave, without somebody telling them about these things! Hopefully once they get the idea, they too will be able to get into it and forget their WoW roots :)
Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
Nikademis said:I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
Well said.
In EQ i would Craft at this time or farm craft items, I also cleaned out bank and bags or did little quest that if i did not finish would come back to later. Liked that about eq quest u turned them in when u wanted and if u did not finish right away could just come back and finish.
Nikademis said:Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
This is not an arguement to make everything for everyone. First off, this game isn't geared towards the "hardcore" by any stretch, its just describing itself as group-centric. I raise these concerns because again, we can bring up EverQuest left and right, but at the same time we want a game that can stand the test of time and not cut servers down to 2, layoff 90% of its developers, convert to F2P, have a sub 1k playerbase, and sell its soul just to stay afloat. You know the thing that happens to alot of MMOs nowadays. We need to stop sipping the kool-aid and start thinking rationale about what will get the "right" players into the game and keep them in the game. I've been down this road with Vanguard and slept on these issues, but I will voice for VR to do the right thing and get off the logic of "well EQ did this so we're gonna do it". The game does not have to adjust its identity to solve these daily situations, it just has to be smart on how its PVE content is driven. We as prospective players can sit here with our laundry wishlists of things from the past we want, but we aren't making a game for the past, we're making something that with hopes will be something that's still around 5-6-7-8-9-10+ years.
Nikademis said:Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
Nikademis said:Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
Project1999 is a server that reflects the general state of Everquest during the Velious expansion era. Most people who argue that being a "hardcore" MMO experience, with a heavy preference to grouping and guild interaction, and a basic philosophy they hope to see in Pantheon.
I'm a person with limited freetime. I normally find an hour at a shot to log in to a game maybe 3-4 times a week. Very rarely I might find 2-4 hours contigously.
I have a near-cap level shaman, and a mid-30's necro on the Project1999 server, both with at least one advanced tradeskill.
I don't understand people arguing that a game with the sort of configuration as Everquest somehow precludes a person with limited time being able to find advancement oppurtunities. Will I ever get really sweet raid gear? No. Will I ever be envied for my character's power and prestige? Not just no, but hell no. But that doesnt mean that there's no possibility to feel accomplishment.
I dont need some gimmick to keep me occupied or some distraction from the core of the game to devert my attention. I put a minor amount of thought and planning into what I will do when I log in, so that when the oppurtunity arises I already have a direction in mind. Sometimes those plans pan out, sometimes they dont. I do not ask nor expect the devs to build ways for me to find things to do. I ask only that they build the world as a sandbox, and allow me to figure out the rest.
So this is really an post for people on either end of the spectrum: Those that want special consideration in the development to embrace rather than simply allow alternate paths to advancement for those with little time, and those that suggest that I cannot/should not/wont be able to play Pantheon without those considerations.
How about if we just let the devs build a kickass game in the same vein as Everquest?
As a final thought: As soon as you start building worthwhile daily quests or side-jobs or whatever you want to call them that provide some advantage, whether that's xp or faction or coin, those without time constraints will will feel compelled to complete those every day. And those with time constraints will take the easy path, consuming those dailies, and their game experience will largely be a repetition of the same content over and over and over again, eventually making them resent that this game is nothing but a repetition of crap dailies. Are they required to go that route? No. But I absolutely promise that the feedback they scream online will be that the "only valid way to advance" is repeating a limited number of half-assed quests every day. That's not going to bring in people who might be curious about Pantheon.
Ashenor said:Nikademis said:Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
People are afraid to admit that there are certain aspects needed for MMOs to survive in today's market. Everyone gets wrapped up in glits n glamour and forget about the reality is that is the MMO business. People believe that ANYTHING outside of what they want in this game will compromise the entire package which is not even remotely true. Personally I am not sold that I will be playing this game at launch yet. I will support someone taking the initiative in attempting to create something that is "different" so thus here I am. With that being said I will continue to be critical on all aspects of the game with hopes that the developers do see that there are smarter/better ways to do things then relying on thought-process and methodology of a product 15+ years old. Progressive-thinking is the way to go here.
Ashenor said:How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
Those would be the same MMO's that have catered to the casual crowd, and have done the opposite of what Pantheon is attempting. They are among the literal hundreds of games so much like each other that choosing between them is like choosing between spagetti and ravioli; the differences being largely cosmetic and the substance being more or less the same. A standout establishment serving up a whopping helping of crab can attract a solid and loyal customer base if for no other reason that it's not more f****** pasta.
Calling out the "filthy" casuals better be a joke. Because if it's not it shows an astonishing ignorance and considerable lack of decorum. Casuals are the bread and butter of most games. It's not the small percentage of the player base that's on the bleeding end-game that pays the bills. It's the majority of people in the middle, many of whom the term casual applies to, that provide the bulk of the income for MMOs.
Foresight to solve issues that arent issues isnt foresight. The "fixes" that have been provided in all those other "pasta" games is exactly why we are here, now, desperate for crab.
Ashenor said:Nikademis said:Raive said:What people are wondering if they find a spontaneous 60 minutes to play and tey want to level, that they log in and don't spend 40 minutes looking for a group only to find one to have to leave it 5 minutes later.
I don't mean for this to sound rude or as an attack, but this is just a non-issue in my mind. If a person's life is as busy as you describe then perhaps they shouldn't be trying to fill their one free hour in a hardcore, group-centric MMORPG. There are countless games to fill this role, even MMOs if they insist. But please, I beg, let’s not campaign for Pantheon to be one of them.
I see this question/argument a lot on these forums, the idea that the game should somehow cater to people with less time for gaming. This is completely counterintuitive to the very same tenants that we have all clamored for and found in the development of this game. You can't have it both ways. At some point we’re all going to have to just accept the fact that we aren't the young people with loads of free time to play a game like Pantheon and applaud the fact that someone had the stones to make the game in the first place, even if that means we aren't the ones leading the charge by logging massive hours. We all need to stop pretending that just because we’re all older and can't play as long means that there isn't a new generation of gamers to fill that role. News flash: we weren't the last group of 18-35 year-olds born to the human race.
We all loved EQ because it DIDN’T compromise or make apologies for what it was. Is that not why we’re all here, because we want that experience again (or at least to know that game exists)? We do ourselves and this game a great injustice when we start trying to make it everything for everyone – the very antithesis to the foundations which Pantheon was conceived.
How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
Without question and I agree. But that may just speak to the state and viability of the genre as a whole and not any one game. I would be lying to myself if I haven't had to silence the voice in the back of my head saying "is this too good to be true?" or "can this really work?" The idea that Pantheon might not succeed has always been a real possibility and I don’t think we should fool ourselves into thinking its success is a given. But I don't think that means we should compromise on the principles that brought us all under one flag either.
I just feel like at one stage or another we have to stop and think about what it is we're actually looking for in Pantheon – certainly not the status quo, right?. I would rather this community and Pantheon stuck to its principles and went down in a blaze of glory than compromise and become something it was never touted to be. At least then we would all know if the game we have in our minds is capable of coming to fruition or was just a flash in the pan. If too many concessions are made then Pantheon will become a very different game then the majority of this community wants. Its failure will be in that it alienated the one subset of people that it claimed to target from the start in order to cater to others. It’s a very slippery slope.
Feyshtey said:Ashenor said:How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
Those would be the same MMO's that have catered to the casual crowd, and have done the opposite of what Pantheon is attempting. They are among the literal hundreds of games so much like each other that choosing between them is like choosing between spagetti and ravioli; the differences being largely cosmetic and the substance being more or less the same. A standout establishment serving up a whopping helping of crab can attract a solid and loyal customer base if for no other reason that it's not more f****** pasta.
Calling out the "filthy" casuals better be a joke. Because if it's not it shows an astonishing ignorance and considerable lack of decorum. Casuals are the bread and butter of most games. It's not the small percentage of the player base that's on the bleeding end-game that pays the bills. It's the majority of people in the middle, many of whom the term casual applies to, that provide the bulk of the income for MMOs.
Foresight to solve issues that arent issues isnt foresight. The "fixes" that have been provided in all those other "pasta" games is exactly why we are here, now, desperate for crab.
You literally just proved my point about why there needs to be a small amount of solo-small group content around for such casual players. The fact that casual players involve themselves with all of the content, you have to make sure they are taken care of. Casual players dont mean "easy" it means they may play on a monday, a thursday, and maybe again next wednesday for a total of 6 hours. Content has to be developed to where they may be able to get a slice of the pie, hell even just a sniff of it.
(This is coming from a guy who is on the complete opposite spectrum of casual, yet understands why keeping the playerbase healthy is important)
Feyshtey said:Ashenor said:How many recent MMO's have survived without going free to play?
It's all fine and dandy that this is the game we want, but without having (filthy) casauals this could end of free to play with micro transactions also or worse.
Some foresight to solve some issues is not the worst thing to talk about.
I will have plenty of time to grind and play, so this is not about me, this is about this game making it when MMO's don't. It is cartering to a niche market to begin with, and there is no gaurantee that the 18-35 year old bracket will want to play this style of game. I mean they all love myspace right?
I am personally sinking $1200 into this game prior to ever playing, so please don't confuse my intentions of this post.
Those would be the same MMO's that have catered to the casual crowd, and have done the opposite of what Pantheon is attempting. They are among the literal hundreds of games so much like each other that choosing between them is like choosing between spagetti and ravioli; the differences being largely cosmetic and the substance being more or less the same. A standout establishment serving up a whopping helping of crab can attract a solid and loyal customer base if for no other reason that it's not more f****** pasta.
Calling out the "filthy" casuals better be a joke. Because if it's not it shows an astonishing ignorance and considerable lack of decorum. Casuals are the bread and butter of most games. It's not the small percentage of the player base that's on the bleeding end-game that pays the bills. It's the majority of people in the middle, many of whom the term casual applies to, that provide the bulk of the income for MMOs.
Foresight to solve issues that arent issues isnt foresight. The "fixes" that have been provided in all those other "pasta" games is exactly why we are here, now, desperate for crab.
If you can not read into my "filthy" casual comment as sarcasm you must have missed the whole point of this post. You must not have read the tread at all, i have referred to them numerous times as the meat and potatoes of games and keeping them afloat.
Also if you think a game made for the "hardcore" or "niche" market that we are could survive over a mainstream MMO's that have catered to broader audiances and failed then wow....
This game like it or not needs to be marketed to EVERYONE, not just US. If things have to be added to be more casual friendly i am fine with that if it keeps subs rolling in and paying the costs for the team and what not.
Raive said:You literally just proved my point about why there needs to be a small amount of solo-small group content around for such casual players. The fact that casual players involve themselves with all of the content, you have to make sure they are taken care of. Casual players dont mean "easy" it means they may play on a monday, a thursday, and maybe again next wednesday for a total of 6 hours. Content has to be developed to where they may be able to get a slice of the pie, hell even just a sniff of it.
(This is coming from a guy who is on the complete opposite spectrum of casual, yet understands why keeping the playerbase healthy is important)
No, you don't have to specifically design content for casuals. You just have to design content with varried levels of risk vs reward. If you allow enough of a level spread to still get xp for killing something while solo'ing, you've "solved" the "problem". It doesnt require any specific design philosophy. It doesnt require any gimmicks, or tools or special considerations.
Unless you mean to suggest that the designers are never going to have varried population levels, or individual patrolling mobs, or animals in the wild that are alone, then the issue solves itself. I would argue that a design that does anything less would be a design that is not a believable world, where packs of spiders hunt together and no orc never travels alone.
Ashenor said:Also if you think a game made for the "hardcore" or "niche" market that we are could survive over a mainstream MMO's that have catered to broader audiances and failed then wow....
This game like it or not needs to be marketed to EVERYONE, not just US. If things have to be added to be more casual friendly i am fine with that if it keeps subs rolling in and paying the costs for the team and what not.
Survive over other MMO's? Not really sure what that means. If you mean that it will not exceed the income of other MMO's I agree. It would not. If you mean that it cant survive at all? I think you're flat out wrong, and that is precisly the philosophy of Visionary Realms. They mean to deliberately design a game that is more niche, knowing full well that they arent going to set any subscriber records. They just want a viable product that brings in a profit by delivering something few if any other studios are delivering.
It can be marketed to everyone all day every day. It does NOT mean that it needs to be DESIGNED for everyone. First, you can't. There are too many variables. And second, in order to stand apart it has to be the one game in development that isnt trying to be as much as it can be to all customers. Almost all other games are already doing that, and the audience here rejects it. We seek something that deviates from what the MMO world has devolved into, and something that harkens back to the roots in Everquest that we loved so much.
Feyshtey said:Raive said:You literally just proved my point about why there needs to be a small amount of solo-small group content around for such casual players. The fact that casual players involve themselves with all of the content, you have to make sure they are taken care of. Casual players dont mean "easy" it means they may play on a monday, a thursday, and maybe again next wednesday for a total of 6 hours. Content has to be developed to where they may be able to get a slice of the pie, hell even just a sniff of it.
(This is coming from a guy who is on the complete opposite spectrum of casual, yet understands why keeping the playerbase healthy is important)
No, you don't have to specifically design content for casuals. You just have to design content with varried levels of risk vs reward. If you allow enough of a level spread to still get xp for killing something while solo'ing, you've "solved" the "problem". It doesnt require any specific design philosophy. It doesnt require any gimmicks, or tools or special considerations.
Unless you mean to suggest that the designers are never going to have varried population levels, or individual patrolling mobs, or animals in the wild that are alone, then the issue solves itself. I would argue that a design that does anything less would be a design that is not a believable world, where packs of spiders hunt together and no orc never travels alone.
I feel like either you are trolling me or you really are missing the point of what I am saying. I will give some examples from EverQuest the kind of content I am speaking of:
Commonlands - Overland content, bears, snakes, bats, skeletons. Solo/small groups do the roamers, the groups hit the orc camps.
Unrest - Dungeon, outside/starter levels can be done by solo-small groups, deeper in you need the groups
Befallen - Same concept as Unrest
South/North Karanas - Aviak camps, treant camps, spire camps, content that can be done by small groups (or full for that matter)
Splitpaw - You're going to want a group for this
Upper Guk/Lower Guk - Some of it are small group camps, others are tougher and require more
North Ro/Oasis/South Ro - Overland Overland Overland, all types of group levels can do this content
Am I making sense now? This is content small groups can handle as well as full groups can without compromising a penny of the game's integrity of being group-centric. I hope this is clear. This HAS to exist. Not every single mob in the game should require a full 6 man team tank 2 healers, cc, and some dps. Sorry it just doesn't.
Feyshtey said:Ashenor said:Also if you think a game made for the "hardcore" or "niche" market that we are could survive over a mainstream MMO's that have catered to broader audiances and failed then wow....
This game like it or not needs to be marketed to EVERYONE, not just US. If things have to be added to be more casual friendly i am fine with that if it keeps subs rolling in and paying the costs for the team and what not.
Survive over other MMO's? Not really sure what that means. If you mean that it will not exceed the income of other MMO's I agree. It would not. If you mean that it cant survive at all? I think you're flat out wrong, and that is precisly the philosophy of Visionary Realms. They mean to deliberately design a game that is more niche, knowing full well that they arent going to set any subscriber records. They just want a viable product that brings in a profit by delivering something few if any other studios are delivering.
It can be marketed to everyone all day every day. It does NOT mean that it needs to be DESIGNED for everyone. First, you can't. There are too many variables. And second, in order to stand apart it has to be the one game in development that isnt trying to be as much as it can be to all customers. Almost all other games are already doing that, and the audience here rejects it. We seek something that deviates from what the MMO world has devolved into, and something that harkens back to the roots in Everquest that we loved so much.
Vanguard said the exact same thing...and....well.....you know the rest. (I was there)