Mekada said:Xaleban said:II hated having to pay to sell an item. I hated when people put the same item up for less then I had to pay a fee to end my auction early so I could put it back up lower than theirs and then pay another fee to put it back up. I hated having to filter what I was looking for. I could sit there all day filtering every single option just to see items I could use. It was so much simpler to just see what people were selling and click the item links as they popped up. I enjoyed getting buffs from high level toons when I was a noobie while they were selling and I enjoyed giving noobies buffs when I was a high level while I sold. I also enjoyed people sending me tells for jewelry combines because they heard I was reputable and wouldnt overcharge for combines and give deals for purchasing multiple pieces. I also enjoyed being able to take offers on high end pieces of loot instead of having to throw it up on an auctionhouse. I enjoyed meeting people and having conversation or letting someone know what items I might have that would benefit their character. And most of all... I looked forward to seeing what items I might be able to afford as I leveld up when I finally had what I thought was a decent amount of money and asking what items people may have for my character in my price range.
...
Yes these are my personal experiences but they are the same experiences a lot of others had as well. Perhaps there may be some way to please both sides on this matter but it is my belief the newer school players are against the old school way because all they have ever known is auction houses.
The good thing with AH is that they are optionnals. If you wanted to sell your item on your own and not pay the money sink, you could. I don't understand why you dislike filtering what's for sale? How could it take you the whole day to find your item? It's the greatest thing the bazaar introduced to EQ imo. The ability to quickly see what 1h slash weapon with 10str were for sale at that time. Maybe there are none, maybe you discover an item you didn't know about.
I started playing EQ between Kunark and Velious, so maybe it was different before then. Or perhaps it was my server...but I never had the meaningful, community building, reputation backed interaction everyone is talking about while spamming and reading spam in EC. It was just a nightmare of finding what I wanted, then sending an offer, 25% lower than advertised, then pay the counter-counter-offer.
-> Would you take Xpp? Not lower than Ypp. Ok. wru?. T1.*Open trade window* Thanks. Thanks.<-
This is what I had 99% of the time in EC and I would rather not have to do it again.
As others have said, players go for the path of least resistance. The Auction house is optional on paper, but in practice it is not. When I play an MMO that has an Auction House, they invariable also have an /Auction channel. I don't care if I'm buying, or selling at the time, but I never, NEVER had that /Auction channel on, and I'm willing to bet most people are the same.
I loved EC Tunnel (Or in my case, Gfay trading on Povar) in 1999. I play P99 now, and I still love it. That hasn't changed. The "Nostalgia" argument is a tired one.
Tralyan said:philo said:Tralyan said:Thanks for bringing that up, @ Philo
So there is no confusion, the consignment idea I'm referring to is the one you'll notice if you read a little further into that thread. This idea completely takes out Vendors or NPC's, and is run completely by the players.
The consignment idea you mention was actually from the OP in that thread I believe. Brad is just ellaborating on what the OP said in the response I quoted. Honestly, I think that idea relies to much on trusting the seller to actually take the time to sell the items. But I like the idea and it is a good starting point that could be developed further.
See, if I feel like those problems could be easily handled.
If they're able to make something Automated like an Auction House, Cash on Delivery, and a Bazaar, surely they can create these kinds of safeguards with a consignment bag.
Scenario:
You have a Wurmslayer you'd like to sell, but you hate EC trading. You want to keep adventuring. So you locate me, a trader, willing to trade this item for you so that you can continue killing snow bunnies in Eastern Wastes. You and I agree on a percantage, or a consignment fee.
Philo right clicks wurmslayer, clicks "Consignment", and a menu pops up. In this menu you can choose the sale price, the consignment percentage, and days on the market. This item is now marked as Consignment, and when you trade it to me it goes directly into the "Consignment bag", a bag every player has that can only be used for this purpose. When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox.
The point of the consignment bag is that it can only be removed completely from that bag - my inventory - when the full agreed upon price is paid.
This creates the social interaction between you, and myself, while also giving you the option of having the auction house experience of selling goods.
I understand the concept. I think it is good in theory but, like I mentioned before, I think this (below): is where the concept falls apart. (maybe you have a solution?)
" When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox."
Lets say I give you 3 days. Some people might spend an hour total auctioning the item and when it doesn't sell that is it. What is keeping someone from not auctioning my wurmslayer at all?
Where is the incentive for the owner of the item that the item will actually be auctioned for a good amount of time? Now it is 3 days later and I get my item back and have to start the process over...after multiple attempts at this I think it would get old.
How can the person who is selling the item be regulated so that they put enough effort into actually selling it? It is to easy for the seller to just hold someones item for a few days and not put forth the effort to sell it.
Here is a possible solution.
The owner of the item and the seller agree upon a price. If the seller sells the item they get 10% (or however much) of the total sale price. If the seller doesn't sell the item they owe the owner 10% of the total sale price.
...though then you run into issues of the seller not being able to cover their debt. That also leads to a scenario where people only want to sell other people's items if they are something that is a quick flip...but if that is the case then the owner may as well do it themselves.
There has to be a scenario where the seller is held responsible to actually (at least try to) sell the item.
...and then there is this, which might be a larger issue:
This also leads to some people making "vendor" characters on a second account who just spams trade with other people's items all day. Is that really what we want to encourage? Maybe the devs would encourage this because it gets another subscription fee but I would hope not. I don't see this as something that would end up being good for the community.
philo said:Regardless of whether there is an AH or just a /trade channel people are going to camp and, like you say, "monopolize the contested content from which that...sought after...item comes". We know instances will be limted. If the only realistic option is to earn enough currency to buy a specific item because it is always camped, you have a better chance of getting that item if there is some form of AH. The more market competition there is for a specific item the easier it will be to attain through the market (generally both in terms of cost and quantity).
Items will be camped. That is a given. Sometimes it is best to choose the path of least resistance even if it isn't the perfect solution.
Here's where you're losing me :
Imagine a guild that no longer can get any item benefits from killing mob 0023. Imagine further that killing the mob nets them no benefit in slowing anyone else down in their progression to be a competitor. Imagine further than that, that the guild has already killed mobs 0024 thru 0033 in a given month's period, getting all the gear and progression benefits they can from them and accomplishing the block of other guild's progressions. But they have 12 days left in the month's tax lottery cycle, and mob 0023 (which is trivial to them at this point) is up.
That guild might choose to kill 0023 to gear twinks or something. But they could just as easily pass on it because it's just not that valuable to them anymore. However, in the proposed tax lottery system killing another named, regardles of the lack of immediate gains it might provide, does still pad their numbers for the lottery. They might go out of their way to kill that valueless mob and by extension prevent that kill by any other guild, just so they can more likely lock in that the monthly jackpot win.
So essentially the greater playerbase is paying into a pool which encourages guilds to take content from that greater playerbase, only for the reason to ensure they also take the money the greater playerbase paid into the pool.
Tralyan said:When I play an MMO that has an Auction House, they invariable also have an /Auction channel. I don't care if I'm buying, or selling at the time, but I never, NEVER had that /Auction channel on, and I'm willing to bet most people are the same.
This might have been the case for you personally but that isn't the case in general. I hate to use it as an example, but the wow AH and trade channels were always both used heavily. The AH is optional even if you are limiting your options. Seems like you should have turned on the trade channel more often.
Tralyan said:
See, if I feel like those problems could be easily handled.
If they're able to make something Automated like an Auction House, Cash on Delivery, and a Bazaar, surely they can create these kinds of safeguards with a consignment bag.
Scenario:
You have a Wurmslayer you'd like to sell, but you hate EC trading. You want to keep adventuring. So you locate me, a trader, willing to trade this item for you so that you can continue killing snow bunnies in Eastern Wastes. You and I agree on a percantage, or a consignment fee.
Philo right clicks wurmslayer, clicks "Consignment", and a menu pops up. In this menu you can choose the sale price, the consignment percentage, and days on the market. This item is now marked as Consignment, and when you trade it to me it goes directly into the "Consignment bag", a bag every player has that can only be used for this purpose. When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox.
The point of the consignment bag is that it can only be removed completely from that bag - my inventory - when the full agreed upon price is paid.
This creates the social interaction between you, and myself, while also giving you the option of having the auction house experience of selling goods.
What happens if you get hit by a bus, and are never online attempting to sell my item in the period of days I've outlined? Can I choose to end the contract and take my item back at any time? Do I have to interact with you to do so? Do I have to wait till the end of the proposed consignment to get my item back and attempt to find a new consignment broker?
Just so we're clear, I actually thought thru a systems somewhat like this and hit a bit of a wall. No matter how you cut it all of the downside of AH and Bazaar type systems creeps in. In your scenario there's virtually no investment of time by the seller to sell. Which means that there's little (or zero) incentive for him to do anything else but put items up for sale rather than gift them, or use them as trophy items in his house (a la EQ2), or offers it as tribute for a short-term buff, or some other mechanism that aids another player or removes the item from the game. Additionally it also incentivises adventerers farming crap to sell (because, why not, it's not like they have to put in any effort to), which increases the count of those items in the game, and which decreases their value (both economically and in a player's feeling of prestige or accomplishment).
This is a self-propetuating cycle which ensures maximum camping of named purely for cash profit, and a likelyhood of locking out content for players who would like to achieve the goal on their own rather than feed into a gumball machine system of aquirring cash to fund gear purchased from players (or worse, gold farmers) who farm the gear constantly and prevent self-acquisition.
Again, the fundimental detriment to the game economy's health is the lack of requirement of investement by the seller to sell. If there's not an investement of time by the seller, all the other bad accumulates.
philo said:Tralyan said:philo said:Tralyan said:Thanks for bringing that up, @ Philo
So there is no confusion, the consignment idea I'm referring to is the one you'll notice if you read a little further into that thread. This idea completely takes out Vendors or NPC's, and is run completely by the players.
The consignment idea you mention was actually from the OP in that thread I believe. Brad is just ellaborating on what the OP said in the response I quoted. Honestly, I think that idea relies to much on trusting the seller to actually take the time to sell the items. But I like the idea and it is a good starting point that could be developed further.
See, if I feel like those problems could be easily handled.
If they're able to make something Automated like an Auction House, Cash on Delivery, and a Bazaar, surely they can create these kinds of safeguards with a consignment bag.
Scenario:
You have a Wurmslayer you'd like to sell, but you hate EC trading. You want to keep adventuring. So you locate me, a trader, willing to trade this item for you so that you can continue killing snow bunnies in Eastern Wastes. You and I agree on a percantage, or a consignment fee.
Philo right clicks wurmslayer, clicks "Consignment", and a menu pops up. In this menu you can choose the sale price, the consignment percentage, and days on the market. This item is now marked as Consignment, and when you trade it to me it goes directly into the "Consignment bag", a bag every player has that can only be used for this purpose. When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox.
The point of the consignment bag is that it can only be removed completely from that bag - my inventory - when the full agreed upon price is paid.
This creates the social interaction between you, and myself, while also giving you the option of having the auction house experience of selling goods.
I understand the concept. I think it is good in theory but, like I mentioned before, I think this (below): is where the concept falls apart. (maybe you have a solution?)
" When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox."
Lets say I give you 3 days. Some people might spend an hour total auctioning the item and when it doesn't sell that is it. What is keeping someone from not auctioning my wurmslayer at all?
Where is the incentive for the owner of the item that the item will actually be auctioned for a good amount of time? Now it is 3 days later and I get my item back and have to start the process over...after multiple attempts at this I think it would get old.
How can the person who is selling the item be regulated so that they put enough effort into actually selling it? It is to easy for the seller to just hold someones item for a few days and not put forth the effort to sell it.
Here is a possible solution.
The owner of the item and the seller agree upon a price. If the seller sells the item they get 10% (or however much) of the total sale price. If the seller doesn't sell the item they owe the owner 10% of the total sale price.
...though then you run into issues of the seller not being able to cover their debt. That also leads to a scenario where people only want to sell other people's items if they are something that is a quick flip...but if that is the case then the owner may as well do it themselves.
There has to be a scenario where the seller is held responsible to actually (at least try to) sell the item.
...and then there is this, which might be a larger issue:
This also leads to some people making "vendor" characters on a second account who just spams trade with other people's items all day. Is that really what we want to encourage? Maybe the devs would encourage this because it gets another subscription fee but I would hope not. I don't see this as something that would end up being good for the community.
You certainly make a good point. My two answers to this are as follows:
I'm in the camp that likes for the community to police itself to an almost extreme degree. If you have traders that commonly act this way, then reputation, I believe, will work that problem out. Much like the ninja-looter, or the crappy puller, or the rogue that sits and AFK's in eveyr PUG he's in, people will learn not to group with that person. Their name becomes known. Just as the great tank has garnered a good reputation. I truly believe that, in the trading system outlined, it would work out much the same way. While to others that may seem like a con, to me it's an added bonus. Anything that creates that dynamic of character reputation is good in my book.
My second answer being towards your solution - I think it's a great one. You could easily create something like an Escrow Account. I would be unable to complete my trade with you, to sell your wurmslayer, unless I have that 10% in my inventory. Once the trade is complete, that 10% goes into the trading escrow account. If I do not sell your item within the agreed upon 3 days, that 10% goes directly from my escrow account into yours, along with the item.
I'd be for both options.
Great discussion.
Feyshtey said:philo said:Regardless of whether there is an AH or just a /trade channel people are going to camp and, like you say, "monopolize the contested content from which that...sought after...item comes". We know instances will be limted. If the only realistic option is to earn enough currency to buy a specific item because it is always camped, you have a better chance of getting that item if there is some form of AH. The more market competition there is for a specific item the easier it will be to attain through the market (generally both in terms of cost and quantity).
Items will be camped. That is a given. Sometimes it is best to choose the path of least resistance even if it isn't the perfect solution.
Here's where you're losing me :
Imagine a guild that no longer can get any item benefits from killing mob 0023. Imagine further that killing the mob nets them no benefit in slowing anyone else down in their progression to be a competitor. Imagine further than that, that the guild has already killed mobs 0024 thru 0033 in a given month's period, getting all the gear and progression benefits they can from them and accomplishing the block of other guild's progressions. But they have 12 days left in the month's tax lottery cycle, and mob 0023 (which is trivial to them at this point) is up.That guild might choose to kill 0023 to gear twinks or something. But they could just as easily pass on it because it's just not that valuable to them anymore. However, in the proposed tax lottery system killing another named, regardles of the lack of immediate gains it might provide, does still pad their numbers for the lottery. They might go out of their way to kill that valueless mob and by extension prevent that kill by any other guild, just so they can more likely lock in that the monthly jackpot win.
So essentially the greater playerbase is paying into a pool which encourages guilds to take content from that greater playerbase, only for the reason to ensure they also take the money the greater playerbase paid into the pool.
Let's keep this in the context of what is being discussed.
I'm not sure how you went from my quote that was about how people will always camp certain items regardless of whether there is an AH or not, in response to your quote about the AH and attaining rare drops, to bringing up a whole system of lockout counters and a lottery cycle.
That wasn't what was being discussed.
The conversation was in regards to your thoughts on the AH and your point (abbreviated) was that "There's no personal investment in unloading the gear if the game engine makes that posisble with a few clicks."
If you are saying that lockout timers and a lottery cycle are a possible solution to the issue then ok, but that is a whole other can of worms that wasn't in the context of what was being referred to. It seems like quite a leap to go from one to the other. It almost needs its own thread. There is a lot there and a lot of details that could be discussed.
Maybe you could better explain how you feel that relates to the original conversation?
PHilo, I got confused because you said you lost me on my second paragraph, which wasnt about the AH, and was instead about the tax lottery :)
You're right, there's always going to be camping. And there's always going to be camping for the sake of selling gear for coin. But what I was trying to point out was that if you deliberately build a system in which no one needs invest their own time to sell an item, they will be much more likely to play the game specifically to gather loot from named and sell it. Why wouldnt they? In the meantime they are locking other players out of pursuing content for the sake of acquiring the gear on their own.
Again, you're right about the camping. But AH and Bazaar systems compound issues involving camping.
I'm not opposed to camping. I actually enjoy games where a reward is not a certainty, and getting it might actually be a bit of an ordeal. Because if you achieve it, its so much sweeter. But I am opposed to anything that unnecessarily promotes farming. And selling gear on the player market with no time invested by the player does exactly that.
Tralyan said:philo said:Tralyan said:philo said:Tralyan said:Thanks for bringing that up, @ Philo
So there is no confusion, the consignment idea I'm referring to is the one you'll notice if you read a little further into that thread. This idea completely takes out Vendors or NPC's, and is run completely by the players.
The consignment idea you mention was actually from the OP in that thread I believe. Brad is just ellaborating on what the OP said in the response I quoted. Honestly, I think that idea relies to much on trusting the seller to actually take the time to sell the items. But I like the idea and it is a good starting point that could be developed further.
See, if I feel like those problems could be easily handled.
If they're able to make something Automated like an Auction House, Cash on Delivery, and a Bazaar, surely they can create these kinds of safeguards with a consignment bag.
Scenario:
You have a Wurmslayer you'd like to sell, but you hate EC trading. You want to keep adventuring. So you locate me, a trader, willing to trade this item for you so that you can continue killing snow bunnies in Eastern Wastes. You and I agree on a percantage, or a consignment fee.
Philo right clicks wurmslayer, clicks "Consignment", and a menu pops up. In this menu you can choose the sale price, the consignment percentage, and days on the market. This item is now marked as Consignment, and when you trade it to me it goes directly into the "Consignment bag", a bag every player has that can only be used for this purpose. When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox.
The point of the consignment bag is that it can only be removed completely from that bag - my inventory - when the full agreed upon price is paid.
This creates the social interaction between you, and myself, while also giving you the option of having the auction house experience of selling goods.
I understand the concept. I think it is good in theory but, like I mentioned before, I think this (below): is where the concept falls apart. (maybe you have a solution?)
" When I sell the wurmslayer for the agreed upon price, the percentage goes directly to me, and the sale price after subtracting that percentage goes directly to your bank. IF I don't sell the wurmslayer within the days you input in that menu, let's say three days, the item itself goes directly back into your mailbox."
Lets say I give you 3 days. Some people might spend an hour total auctioning the item and when it doesn't sell that is it. What is keeping someone from not auctioning my wurmslayer at all?
Where is the incentive for the owner of the item that the item will actually be auctioned for a good amount of time? Now it is 3 days later and I get my item back and have to start the process over...after multiple attempts at this I think it would get old.
How can the person who is selling the item be regulated so that they put enough effort into actually selling it? It is to easy for the seller to just hold someones item for a few days and not put forth the effort to sell it.
Here is a possible solution.
The owner of the item and the seller agree upon a price. If the seller sells the item they get 10% (or however much) of the total sale price. If the seller doesn't sell the item they owe the owner 10% of the total sale price.
...though then you run into issues of the seller not being able to cover their debt. That also leads to a scenario where people only want to sell other people's items if they are something that is a quick flip...but if that is the case then the owner may as well do it themselves.
There has to be a scenario where the seller is held responsible to actually (at least try to) sell the item.
...and then there is this, which might be a larger issue:
This also leads to some people making "vendor" characters on a second account who just spams trade with other people's items all day. Is that really what we want to encourage? Maybe the devs would encourage this because it gets another subscription fee but I would hope not. I don't see this as something that would end up being good for the community.
You certainly make a good point. My two answers to this are as follows:
I'm in the camp that likes for the community to police itself to an almost extreme degree. If you have traders that commonly act this way, then reputation, I believe, will work that problem out. Much like the ninja-looter, or the crappy puller, or the rogue that sits and AFK's in eveyr PUG he's in, people will learn not to group with that person. Their name becomes known. Just as the great tank has garnered a good reputation. I truly believe that, in the trading system outlined, it would work out much the same way. While to others that may seem like a con, to me it's an added bonus. Anything that creates that dynamic of character reputation is good in my book.
My second answer being towards your solution - I think it's a great one. You could easily create something like an Escrow Account. I would be unable to complete my trade with you, to sell your wurmslayer, unless I have that 10% in my inventory. Once the trade is complete, that 10% goes into the trading escrow account. If I do not sell your item within the agreed upon 3 days, that 10% goes directly from my escrow account into yours, along with the item.
I'd be for both options.
Great discussion.
Something like what you referred to as an "escrow account" could work. I think we are getting somewhere. These are some interesting ideas.
I guess my other thought about how most sellers would only want to sell items that are a "quick flip" because they didn't want to pay the fee if it didn't sell would end up regulating itself as well. It becomes worth the risk at some point depending on the fee cost compared to the earning potential.
So now thinking about this I come to my next question: Finding a seller and haggling about fees for each individual item seems like it might be cumbersome. There would need to be some sort of in game interface where people could post the items that they want someone to sell for them...and the costs that would be involved. The seller could then go to the "items to sell" board and choose to accept what items people want sold for them. Does that sound about right to you?
Do you have thoughts on the second issue I brought up? Vendor accounts whose sole purpose is to make money through selling other peoples items? Do you see that as an issue? I could see this becoming a gold sellers treasure trove. I would hate it if gold selling companies constantly bought up a bunch of "for sale" items to sell to make money and turn around and sell the gold back to the community. What is the solution to stop that?
Also Traylan,
I might be concerned that there would be a ton of items to sell and not enough sellers willing to sell them. I guess that might be inevitable and would regulate itself as well. If an item owner doesn't get anyone willing to sell his item when he posts it, maybe they will lower the fees until they find someone willing to sell it.
A separate perk from this idea though is that buyers would simply use this like an AH. They could acquire an item "to sell" but then just pay the full value the owner wanted for the item. They would then get a nice little chunk back for "selling" the item. That would be a nice feature. But is it to close to an AH? I actually like it. It might be an improved AH.
fazool said:I don't want offline trading.
Giving cash bonuses to top-tier guilds is riduculous and doesn't help mudflation and only further motivates race-to-the-top uber-phat-lewtz game-mentality.
I have to agree with Fazool on this one. This creates a huge problem and will bring out the worst type of some people. I think BDO has this and there are major issues there. EVE Online has this also. Diffent game but the concepts are the same.
Ox
I had linked my posts from the Death to AH to another the tools thread, but I'll do it again here as this has drifted into the consignment shop idea again versus using the older ones... I'll also paste the links to the other relevant threads below. They're good ones if you haven't read before - worth a read:
Below are my posts from the Death to the AH thread and the Idea: Tool for consignment shop thread. It's quite the long read... fair warning :).
Post #1
Raidan said:
......That's where I'd say we could actually use players to run consignments shops that had to be there in person. And, the players would take a cut of the items sold - perhaps more/less depending on their success rates. And those players would have to be online to run their shops. There Could be Regional Community Vaults that players could store their goods for consignment for a fee (so it couldn't be abused as an "extra" bank) and those who wanted to play /merchant could pay the vault a fee to retrieve the goods to try to sell while online. Now, how could you get it where the /merchants wouldn't just afk all day? Maybe there's some timer or something that would require player interaction to show they're still present. Not sure how this could be designed, but I'm sure someone could think of an idea.
And like Nimryl had stated earlier in these postings, the merchants can set it up at a guild plot and/or a stall rented/purchased in town. And, the merchant would have to pay a fee to pull the item from the vault. And, once they went offline the had to be returned to the vault (or for the sake not to cheat the system they magically popped back into it). The merchants who also had their own goods would also be able to sell them for full price.
But, for the Bulletin Board, I would want to see basically 3 UI tabs, and the bulletin boards could be located in major cities, or perhaps you could expand it them to houses/guild plots etc. as well:
WTS items - Classified ads/Cragislist style where a player could list everything being sold
WTB Items - Classified ads/Craigslist style where a player could list everything they want to buy
WTT items - Classified ads/Craigslist style where a player could say trading 2 short swords of ykeshas for 1 FBSS
So, it would give players 3 options to sell: EC style for full price, Consignment style by paying a player merchant, and Bulletin Board which would be mainly like a EQ bazaar search list.
_____________________________________
Post #2
And, I expanded it further
@Amsai
1. Consignment style: Good thoughts, perhaps there would be some trader license or merchant skill that was raised? Or trader level? Would the player who places items in the Vault Choose? Class A License - 30% cut Class F License - 5% cut? What justifies the higher %, etc. What justifies a trader having a higher license (amount sold, quests?) Would the player who places item in the vault choose, or just random luck which trader decides to sell his wares and that's the risk the player takes for convenience? Would be curious to hear ideas on how to try to implement the idea though.
Now... for the rest of the idea - don't pay attention to the numbers, they're all hypothetical to just discuss the idea.
For the player to put items in the vault at all there should be a 10% fee of what you want the item sold for. So if I place the item in the Regional Consignment Vault for 1,000 gold. Vault Fee automatically takes 10% (100 g) to avoid abuse.
Now for the trader - Maybe that have to pay for the stall/shop fee - 5-10% of earnings? If the trader had their own shop/stall, maybe they'd pay less or no fee? And let's say the trader takes a flat 30% cut off consignment.
So, theoretically the original player could earn 60% of the item (or up to 85% if you use your License idea). And, if after a period of time the player (who puts the items in the vault) realizes the item isn't sold, and wants to get the item. The player could retrieve the item and try to sell it themselves or vendor it at that point, but would be out at least the 100 gold listing fee.
And, I thought of a way to make sure the player was present as well. The searching of items could be automated within the shop, where a buyer could /search a list, but the buyer would need to send the /merchant a tell to purchase the item, and then a manual trade window would need to be opened to complete the transaction. And, once the item is removed from the search list, the shop takes the 5-10% cut.
2. Bulletin Board. Correct, not a way to buy or sell, but mainly a "convenience" to search what is available to buy/sell (not sure how trade would be figured) - similar to Craigslist/classified. A 5% item charge to list (so 50 gold for a 1000 gold item). You typically have to pay for classified ads, but usually not for Craigslist though. But, it would be an added convenience where a player wouldn't have to /shout WTS/WTB all day long, so 5% doesn't seem too high.
3. EC Style Tunnel. Player could earn full value on item because the trader is physically present, and selling their items.
4. Expanded EC style: Player run shop. Player has to be physically present, and, there's no cost/fees outside of the cost it was to purchase a house/shop or guild shop, etc. Similar to the merchant consignment shop though the players could /search for items but the trade would have to be manually to avoid abuse. Players could still auction items.
5. One other compromise I'd be ok with as well would be a commodities market. You could sell commodities (tradeskill items, research componentes, etc.) to regional commodities vendors could give a flat rate and mark them up 4-5 times what they buy them for. Then, the players could purchase the commodities of the vendors. Or, players could try to still sell the components EC style for 2-3 times the rate and give the player a discount for buying them in person versus the vendor.
And, I'd want all these items to be regional versus global. I know I'm making it more complicated than an AH, but, I want to see the game world stay alive versus having the automation.
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And.. it met with some feedback on being too complicated in which I replied...
Post #3
I get keeping things simple, and I would prefer the simplistic EC style, but I do realize it isn't 1999, so some sort of advancements need to be made.
But, there wouldn't be too many working parts to my suggestion. The hardest part would be the player trading stalls/shops and if some sort of trading license system was implemented.
But at a very basic level, most of the systems have been used in other games:
1. Trader Stalls/Shops: Bazaar style vendoring similar to EQ without the automation - no one could click "Buy" from the vendor, but the rest would function the same.
2. Cosignment Item Vault - similar to any bank, they would just put a sliding scale fee to insert an item.
3. Bulletin Board - a simple searchable list that could be similar to a UI pop-up for LFG with tabs for Buy/Sell, and, if the % is too difficult, it could be a simple listing fee.
4. Commodity Vendors wouldn't take any work at all outside of adding the NPCs.
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Post #4
@Makes and Tralyan,
I'd agree and would be for the player controlling the consignment percentage (this was in reference to player controls versus having preset percentages based off licenses, etc.), and having it mirror capitalism more. I'm sure there ultimately would be some accepted or agreeable consignment percentage that was determined on each server without developer controls. The trading licenses was just an idea that was proposed that I was questioning as well and was offering thoughts/questions on implementation. I'd be more for simplicity here and let the players decide the norm.
And, I don't doubt at all that allowing more player freedom with trade will create a more robust, emergent market; however, I do think that some advances can be made that will expand upon the EQ's (EC style system) rather than detract from it.
And, I like the contract idea as well; however, the problem you would run into with that is the same as the /WTS spam that those who are for AH's are stating. You'll add a new line of auctioning to the EC instead of /WTS. You'll be /auctioning Looking for a Consignment Trader who's willing to accept 15% or less for selling my goods. That's the reason I suggested the item vault versus the contract. But, perhaps you could offer both. The item vault which takes the fee, and finding the consignment trader him/herself and sign the contract and have no fee taken.
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Related threads:
1. http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3176/idea-tool-for-consignment-sales/view/page/1
2. http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
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I think the item vault would solve the "fear" of what players would do with your items to sell.