From the article: http://massivelyop.com/2016/04/25/brad-mcquaid-pantheon-pax-east-2016/
Players are given a profile to fill in which includes not just playstyle and play time preferences but also interests, hobbies, and so forth; the idea is that the game will help introduce you to other players with similar interests and goals.
Well that's interesting! Sounds like OKCupid or Match.com!
Not so concerned with the group tools and profile as I am the mention of mentoring. The only way such a thing should exist is if it completely nerfs the player and yields absolutely no experience while in mentor mode. Even then, I don't think that kind of training-wheels system belongs in a game at launch. Personally, I believe its one of those last resort mechanics when your population is dwindling. Sort of like switching to cash shop payment model when you lack subscribers.
I really hope it was a misspeak on the part of Brad or the writer of the article.
Hmmm, I really don't see the problem with having a questionnaire that might help you find other players with similar interests/playtimes/etc. As long as there aren't any "Click this button to join this group of like-minded individuals and be instantly grouped in..." then I fail to see the problem.
Dullahan said:Not so concerned with the group tools and profile as I am the mention of mentoring. The only way such a thing should exist is if it completely nerfs the player and yields absolutely no experience while in mentor mode. Even then, I don't think that kind of training-wheels system belongs in a game at launch. Personally, I believe its one of those last resort mechanics when your population is dwindling. Sort of like switching to cash shop payment model when you lack subscribers.
I really hope it was a misspeak on the part of Brad or the writer of the article.
While not set in stone, here is how the Mentoring system might work: A higher level player (say level 45) chooses to group with and mentor a level 5 player. His power (dps, AC, etc) is scaled down to level 5. The group kills a mob. The level 5 player gets experience points. The mentor gets a special type of points (like in an AA system) that is useful to him as a level 45+ player.
While horizontal interdependence is the focus of Pantheon (traditional grouping, cooperation, shared experiences, community), vertical interdependence is going to be important as well.
The devil is in the details, as in most systems, but also something we can't really work with and test without critical mass (read: probably beta 1 or so).
Anistosoles said:Hmmm, I really don't see the problem with having a questionnaire that might help you find other players with similar interests/playtimes/etc. As long as there aren't any "Click this button to join this group of like-minded individuals and be instantly grouped in..." then I fail to see the problem.
That's exactly the goal: try to connect people in a real, meaninful way so that long term friendships form. In other words, virtually the opposite of instantly teleporting in random people to an instance, them doing that instance, barely speaking at all, and then the 'group' vanishes after the instance is done and the likelyhood of actual bonds being formed very low.
Krixus said:Bummer. Seems liks this game is going to have a lot more of the "catering" modes than I had hoped it would need.
The 'catering' will mostly be to beginning players who are not used to a game that is about grouping and community. If it annoys you, choose to play on a 'veteran' shard. If you like the idea of helping newbies (and even being rewarded for doing so), then please play on the regular servers. In any case the 'catering' will slowly but surely diminish as players advance in level.
The upside is that people who didn't experience the first generation of MMOs will be exposed to grouping, community, working together, forming friendships, and shared experiences as opposed to logging in, thinking they can do everything solo, running off and then dying repeatedly, ultimately leaving the game frustrated.
I really don't see a downside to what you are refering to as 'catering'; I do, however, see a downside if we (the developers and the veteran gamers) do nothing to help out the new players.
Aradune said:While not set in stone, here is how the Mentoring system might work: A higher level player (say level 45) chooses to group with and mentor a level 5 player. His power (dps, AC, etc) is scaled down to level 5. The group kills a mob. The level 5 player gets experience points. The mentor gets a special type of points (like in an AA system) that is useful to him as a level 45+ player.
I used to play like this in EQ2 and I really enjoyed that system. In other games I would run a player around to help them. I feel this system is better for new players and old. I would rather play with a person than run them through something; It makes them a better player and is more social. I like the fact that I get a little reward for doing so.
Aradune said:Krixus said:Bummer. Seems liks this game is going to have a lot more of the "catering" modes than I had hoped it would need.
The 'catering' will mostly be to beginning players who are not used to a game that is about grouping and community. If it annoys you, choose to play on a 'veteran' shard. If you like the idea of helping newbies (and even being rewarded for doing so), then please play on the regular servers. In any case the 'catering' will slowly but surely diminish as players advance in level.
The upside is that people who didn't experience the first generation of MMOs will be exposed to grouping, community, working together, forming friendships, and shared experiences as opposed to logging in, thinking they can do everything solo, running off and then dying repeatedly, ultimately leaving the game frustrated.
I really don't see a downside to what you are refering to as 'catering'; I do, however, see a downside if we (the developers and the veteran gamers) do nothing to help out the new players.
I feel catering is running a player around power leveling them. A mentoring system encourages lower level players to earn their levels the right way.
Will veteran shards not have mentoring?
Zarriya said:I feel catering is running a player around power leveling them. A mentoring system encourages lower level players to earn their levels the right way.
Will veteran shards not have mentoring?
Agree. This is *not* about power leveling. If the scaling is done correctly, and it will be, power leveling should not be an issue.
Will veteran shards have mentoring? Good question. Probably not... certainly not if not needed... too early to say for certain, of course.
Aradune said:The group kills a mob. The level 5 player gets experience points. The mentor gets a special type of points (like in an AA system) that is useful to him as a level 45+ player.
I've not been a big fan of mentoring, but this part has me listening. Maybe too early to answer this, but when the higher level is scaled down, will they use scaled down versions of upper level skills/spells, or will those upper level skills/spells become unavailable ala EQ2? (At least it was like that during it's first year, I don't know since then.) When testing begins, of course.
Xonth said: My only experience with mentoring was EQ2. Even though you got scalled down it was still super OP. A level 5 with cloth armor grouped with a mentored level 50 in raid gear was was still borched even if you reduced him by 99%. I would love to see how they plan to deal with this. I don't mean to be negative but that interview did not give me any good feelings.
Yeah I didn't like that about EQ2's system, too powerful. I'm sure it can be scaled down to TRUE levels of the lower level player, but EQ2 chose not to do that.
Aradune said:The upside is that people who didn't experience the first generation of MMOs will be exposed to grouping, community, working together, forming friendships, and shared experiences as opposed to logging in, thinking they can do everything solo, running off and then dying repeatedly, ultimately leaving the game frustrated.
ohh. I see. At first I thought the OP was referencing, like E-harmony or something where your game details would include astrology signs and comments like: "Got any raisins?.....How 'bout a DATE". But this is more game driven. I can see a choice being like- time zones- what time you are more likely to be on. Maybe waking up really early on the weekends to play with some European friends; met randomly and friended in game.
Eq2's mentoring was a great system with a great flaw in that the mentor was OP. Like AgentGenX said they just didnt tweak the power of the scaled down player otherwise it EQ2's mentoring would have been awesome. I played with a lot of lower level people because of mentoring and I got to see dungeons that I had skipped while leveling and earn AA. I used mentoring as a tool to teach newcomers how to play EQ2 an got to play with my lower level friends without feeling like I was just making them rush through content. FFXIV is a newer game and does scale well imho and shows that it can be done.
Ty Aradune for answering my question.
Manouk said:Aradune said:The upside is that people who didn't experience the first generation of MMOs will be exposed to grouping, community, working together, forming friendships, and shared experiences as opposed to logging in, thinking they can do everything solo, running off and then dying repeatedly, ultimately leaving the game frustrated.
ohh. I see. At first I thought the OP was referencing, like E-harmony or something where your game details would include astrology signs and comments like: "Got any raisins?.....How 'bout a DATE". But this is more game driven. I can see a choice being like- time zones- what time you are more likely to be on. Maybe waking up really early on the weekends to play with some European friends; met randomly and friended in game.
Actually there will be optional questions pertaining to RL hobbies and interests and such.
Aradune said:Manouk said:Aradune said:The upside is that people who didn't experience the first generation of MMOs will be exposed to grouping, community, working together, forming friendships, and shared experiences as opposed to logging in, thinking they can do everything solo, running off and then dying repeatedly, ultimately leaving the game frustrated.
ohh. I see. At first I thought the OP was referencing, like E-harmony or something where your game details would include astrology signs and comments like: "Got any raisins?.....How 'bout a DATE". But this is more game driven. I can see a choice being like- time zones- what time you are more likely to be on. Maybe waking up really early on the weekends to play with some European friends; met randomly and friended in game.
Actually there will be optional questions pertaining to RL hobbies and interests and such.
Yeah, I have no idea if the EQ 2 developers who implemented the system wanted the Mentors to be OP or if it just turned out that way, but Pantheon Mentors will not be OP. The goal is to help players acclimate to the game and become part of the community, etc.; not to create a system for powerleveling noobs.
Aradune said:While not set in stone, here is how the Mentoring system might work: A higher level player (say level 45) chooses to group with and mentor a level 5 player. His power (dps, AC, etc) is scaled down to level 5. The group kills a mob. The level 5 player gets experience points. The mentor gets a special type of points (like in an AA system) that is useful to him as a level 45+ player.
While horizontal interdependence is the focus of Pantheon (traditional grouping, cooperation, shared experiences, community), vertical interdependence is going to be important as well.
The devil is in the details, as in most systems, but also something we can't really work with and test without critical mass (read: probably beta 1 or so).
If mentoring had to be used, like Dullahan, I wouldn't want it to award any "normal" experience to the mentor who develed. Now, I could see a mentor gain experience in a system similar to Everquest's leadership experience that gives very minor, nearly trivial bonuses - here's a link: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/EverQuest/AA_info/Leadership_AA or perhaps like some strategy game series, if a unit fights in close proximity enough with another they can form a "bond" which would provide small bonuses if grouped later (in close proximity). Provide some small incentive, but nothing that is gamebreaking or necessary.
As far as the mentor scaling back, I'd expand it on how EQ did it with weapon damage originally. Weapon damage/AC/etc. could be scaled off of weapon/defensive skills and hp/mana items or hp/mana regen items could be scaled off of a item knowledge or recovery skill. And, only the skills/spells available at that level could be used.
I've said it in other threads, mentoring could be a reversed twinking system, but, it shouldn't be able to be used to obtain normal experience or you'll get people abusing it. But, if a max level character was scaled back, no matter what system is imposed, there will be some trivialization of content even with scaling as I'm sure they would be close to the damage/ac caps for that level range with their scaled "twink" gear in addition to having a knowledge of the game. Either way though, even if an alt was used that's twinked, you experience the same trivialization as a scaled mentor. The one main piece that would make mentoring different than twinking is a player would have to suspend disbelief of your character being able to magically scale back in levels. I know for some that's a dealbreaker and I get it. I'd be willing to test the system, if introduced properly, and I've usually been 100% aganist mentoring in any game.
My fear of a mentor system even if introduced properly is it would negatively effect the grouping experience by having one new player that is getting power leveled basically by a guild of scaled mentors; whereas, it would be much less likely that a group of guild alts would be in the same level range.
Or, I could see this conversation happening happening... "Hey guys, I see you have an open spot - mind if I join? Sorry, have a guildie that's about ready to join after he scales back once he's done with his raid. I'll let you know if we have an opening though."
TLDR: I get why mentoring would try to be used, but I think there's more potential negatives than positives even if properly implemented. I'd be willing to test it though.
I quit EQ2 originally shortly after being mentored for the first time. It shattered the illusion of meaningful progression. Of course, mentoring at that point was nearly god-mode, as other mentioned.
For all the benefits of mentoring, I feel there are even more drawbacks. Even if the mentor is adequately scaled to be on par with a level 5, their knowledge is still intact. Discovery and problem solving will be diminished. The need to seek out and befriend players of your level, and your general appreciation of your peers will also, on some level, be diminished. In that sense, vertical interdependence could actually harm horizontal interdependence and the microcosm of players of a given level range.
Particulary today, when many will enter Terminus with preexisting communities, I feel its more important than ever that players need to find and depend on new people. More often than not, I feel like mentoring will be used to segregate or exclude rather than than to integrate players in the community, as it provides a way for players to interact solely with those with whom they're already acquainted.
Beyond those things, I think mentoring will also work against things like alts and a progeny system, both of which would normally provide interactions with new people and a stronger community.
Also, I agree with Raidan on mentor rewards. They should be trivial to non-existant.
Just some things to consider.
I have to agree with the posters voicing concerns with the mentor system...I truly abhor the mentoring systems that I have seen in all the games I have played that has it (EQ2, Rift, Guild wars 2). It has been nothing but a god mode powerleveling nightmare. I really hope there is a vetern RP shard where I dont have to deal with this
So the biggest negative I'm hearing is "I don't like it as it will allow others after me to level faster then I did and bypass content". Ok so don't have the effect be anything xp related make it more a combat buff that gets overridden or stacks slightly in a full group (Multiple mentors don't stack beyond the one instance of the buff). Also have a low level cap on being mentored there is a point where they are no longer 'new'. Not going to touch the mentor bonus if any as the mentor should want to help just cause not to increase a bar. Also no mentoring at launch for a bit no need as everyone is new at this point.
Final note: We don't need community spliting 'veteran servers'. RP tag? Sure,doesn't hurt anything but not interested in doing a FF14 Legacy server system.
All I can say, is if there is a server without such convenience mechanics as mentoring, I would play there without a second thought. I imagine there will be more than a few others that feel the same way.
Not sure how rulesets "split the community." Right now we have a general community, but honestly community is usually more about those people that make up individual servers. What people do on their server is not really of any great concern to me for the most part.
leafnin said:So the biggest negative I'm hearing is "I don't like it as it will allow others after me to level faster then I did and bypass content". Ok so don't have the effect be anything xp related make it more a combat buff that gets overridden or stacks slightly in a full group (Multiple mentors don't stack beyond the one instance of the buff). Also have a low level cap on being mentored there is a point where they are no longer 'new'. Not going to touch the mentor bonus if any as the mentor should want to help just cause not to increase a bar. Also no mentoring at launch for a bit no need as everyone is new at this point.
Final note: We don't need community spliting 'veteran servers'. RP tag? Sure,doesn't hurt anything but not interested in doing a FF14 Legacy server system.
I don't like it because I don't feel like it belongs in a virtual world. To me, it's very clearly a fake layer on top of the world. If people like it, so be it. I do not. I understand this is a game with magic and dragons and all that, but it just doesn't work for me, it's false. I don't want my character and items and abilities to be able to scale up or down. If you're level 45 and want to do something with/for a level 5, throw them a buff, give them a hand me down, roll an alt with them, give them advice, pull their corpse, craft them a 10 slot bag, etc.
I understand that it is new players, and not vets, who are the life blood of this type of game and that we should do things to improve their experience so the game will grow and be healthy, but I don't want to see too many what might be considered "easy mode" mechanics. This is hopefully going to be a niche game for people want a different experience. .