Hokanu said:that kinda brings me to my next point which is AOE taunting related. This is the sure fire way to make tanking about as boring and brainless as it comes and it also allows for the above mentioned kind of AOE fest DPSing to take place hence why i am not a fan of it either.
I’m glad you brought this up friend.
The more Pantheon comes to my thoughts the more I realize the tools we have been given in current mmo’s only seem to cheapen the gameplay and draw us away from people. When the game plays for you it ceases to be much of a game. I feel that way about taunt actually.
Snap agro and AOE snap agro don’t really have much strategy to it. The DPS get to ignore the fact there is ‘aggro’ in the game because of the ‘guarantee’ snap agro tools provide. If they can unload their entire kit in 5 global cooldowns and never see retaliation because a snap agro mechanic exists to prevent it from happening where is the risk? Where is the game?
Same thing for AOE damaging abilities. There needs to include a risk and reward to those powerful attacks.
I think (and wow it’s amazing to see my opinion change and evolve) snap-aggro tools, AOE toolboxes (of any kind) need to have very big risks to them or not have them at all.
I could imagine AOE as a great tool to use, almost like a ‘strategic’ move for the group. When enemies are at ½ health do a single AOE, when enemies are at 20% left use an AOE. If the person doing the AOE damage uses it at 75% perhaps the creatures havn’t had enough tank damage/taunt on them, and it could spell doom for that player (risk) But at 50% there’s been enough tank damage/taunt on the mobs to safely release ‘ONE’ powerful AOE ability.
Ok I’m going to start rambling, this is a good thread but I’ll stop now lol.
Great job Hokanu.
-Todd
I'm kinda in the middle with the AoE thing. I think if done right it would be nice to have, but as others have stated most games today seem to be little more than AoE fests. If you're not AoE'n you might as well be doing nothing. I don't mind it in some situations. Hell, every now and agian it's fun to grab a bunch of mobs and burn 'em down. That being said, most of the time I prefer a more...skilled apporach. By that I mean use the chanter to mezz/sleep the next closest mob and have the tank body pull the outer mob without aggroing the whole area. The knoledge of a bad pull hurting makes the victory all the sweeter IMHO.
tehtawd said:
Snap agro and AOE snap agro don’t really have much strategy to it. The DPS get to ignore the fact there is ‘aggro’ in the game because of the ‘guarantee’ snap agro tools provide. If they can unload their entire kit in 5 global cooldowns and never see retaliation because a snap agro mechanic exists to prevent it from happening where is the risk? Where is the game?
@Todd Definitely a pet peeve of mine too! I am a fan of a tanks agro gain working exactly how dps agro works just with the extra taunt element included instead of the extra damage. If their dps are working hard (and maybe dropping too much DPS for the situation) then the tank will need to work extra hard to counter this. Fixing this situation in a group might involve stopping at the end of the fight and reminding the dps to work within the capacity of the group (tanks, healers mainly etc). Some tanks you group with will have some clever ways to hold agro quickly, maybe a Paladin will have less actual taunt skills compared to a warrior but will be able to use some nice buffs to increase their agro early on in a fight.. and a Dire Lord will possibly have to use a couple of DoT's Early on but also through conversation make sure that the DPS around him are not hitting those mobs till the DoTs have taken a good hold and done some damage.
Talking about "snap agro" is a great direction for this thread because it addresses some of the issues i was initially talking about back when the thread started. If a tank can control a situation without even trying then like Todd mentioned the DPS can do what they like without having to think twice and we eventually devolve to an AoE fest.
@All Thanks for chiming on on this one guys, it is somthing i am possibly overly passionate about.. because it felt like the AoE and taunting and CC were biggest changes i saw to mmo's when coming from EQ to moderns and i felt it really had a massive impact on making true group MMO combat stale and one dimensional and like many have said in the thread all about bringing AoE builds to the fight or going home. Glad to see we are for the most part all on a similar page, I too am super confident VR have this sort of thing in mind and understand our various grievances, but i am too passionate not to continue waving the flag about it :)
What do people think about as Todd put it "Snap Agro" vs Agro Building? Not sure if you made up that term or it is the real name, i like it though!
I prefer the building of aggro. Granted, I prefer a bit slower more delirate style of play requiring the while group to think and react. Though I'm not opposed to a snap aggro mechanic I would much prefer it to be on a longer cooldown so as to be used as an emergency measure sort of thing.
I think OP wasnt advocating for AoEing to be removed from the game but just stating the frustration we all have had with modern MMOs where you just pull packs of mobs and AoE burn them down in less than 10 seconds with no risk at all. It is just plain silly how this works nowadays. In EQ it took some serious coordination and highly skilled players to succeed with AoE. You needed minimum 2-3 enchanters each with different rotations on their stun order so that an AoE stun is going off pretty much every tic. You also needed wizzies who could use their AoE push nukes to help get the mobs clumped together as well as a really good cleric who was quick on the ball cause if even one person goes down its a wipe. And even 1 single caster mob could cause a wipe single-handedly. This is what I would love to see in Pantheon. A very high risk with a high reward requiring extremely skilled players for it to be successful. Should every zone be AoEable? Of course not. I think the devs could figure out a way to put a few spots in the game that would allow for it but also, for lack of a better word, SUCK if you wipe. Which also makes me PRAY that corpse runs and death are very similar to EQ. So if you are deep in Amberfaet (or some other dungeon) AoEing and wipe... you are in for a long evening portentially needing to find a rogue or monk nearby for drags or convincing a high level necro who is 10 zones away to come rescue you. Is this extreme? Maybe but so is the risk of AoE.
As far as AoE taunt, I definitely dont think this should be a general ability available to be used at anytime. As powerful as AoE taunt is for a warrior this should be a seriously hard to attain ability and it should not be able to be used frequently. I saw a thread in the enchanter forums where someone was saying enc should get an AoE buff that causes any mob who attacks to be mezzed. Another exampleof an extremely powerful skill. A warrior should not be able to spam an AoE taunt as that is one of the most powerful skills, if not the most powerful, they could ever attain. It should also have a pretty decent chance of failing as well but when it does succeed it should be extremely effective, perhaps even giving the warrior a temporary AC or mitigation boost for a short duration to give the cleric a couple seconds to adjust. It is a little comical going through the class forums and reading what abilities people would like to see as a lot of them are seriously powerful. I may seem like a warrior hater here, but something like AoE taunt shouldnt be acquired easily nor available to be used often. Maybe I am wrong but to me it just seems like its a epic caliber ability. In fact, in EQ I know warriors didnt get AoE taunt for a very long time and for good reason. I also dont think it should be powerful enough for a warrior to be in an AoE group and use area taunt on 15-20 mobs and be able to survive. I see it as being used for panic situations like when a group gets a few adds that kill the enchanter and start attacking the cleric. I may be out of bounds here as I have never played a warrior but that is just my honest opinion. It wouldnt upset me if this was not even put in game. A really good warrior doesnt need AoE taunt in the first place, just sayin.
I love AOE abilities on my mage & also agree that it can be too strong.
Maybe casting AOE abilities could cost a lot of focus
And when groupies do not protect a character that is preparing to cast an AOE ,mobs can easily make the AOE fail. A character preparing to cast an AOE would generate a lot of threat
So players need dependable allies and this also helps to foster the need for good teamwork. What many of these type of games lack lately
What if aoe had different impact severities ,depending on the time a character is able to focus?
So if a wizard is able to reach T1 of focus he could release and cast 1 meteor impact & if the wizard is able to reach T4 undisturbed it would be a full-power meteor shower. So risk vs reward,as you can try to reach a higher tier but each tier you generate more threat and risk that mobs will interrupt it.So the higher the Tier the higher the chance for mobs to interrupt it when they target the character that is preparing an AOE
Most of my tanking experience comes from being the main off-tank as a Shadowknight in EQ2 in raids designed for 24 toons.
In those raids, there would often be 1 or 2 main epic mobs, then there would often be 3-10 other mobs that spawn throughout the fight.
Without large amounts of AE taunts/spells, there is no way a tank can grab agro on all those mobs. The SK was designed as an AE tank.
Now, if Pantheon does not design raids with several mobs that need one tank to control them while the rest of the raid force kills the main mobs, there would not be a need for AE taunts, etc.
But, if raids are designed with many adds, it is a necessity.
Maybe EQ2 designed content like this because they had SKs or maybe they designed SKs so they could have those raids. Don't know. But, if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
Assuming a raid force of 24 (which may or may not be), you cannot bring 6 tanks to control 12+ adds.
Beefcake said:Most of my tanking experience comes from being the main off-tank as a Shadowknight in EQ2 in raids designed for 24 toons.
In those raids, there would often be 1 or 2 main epic mobs, then there would often be 3-10 other mobs that spawn throughout the fight.
Without large amounts of AE taunts/spells, there is no way a tank can grab agro on all those mobs. The SK was designed as an AE tank.
Now, if Pantheon does not design raids with several mobs that need one tank to control them while the rest of the raid force kills the main mobs, there would not be a need for AE taunts, etc.
But, if raids are designed with many adds, it is a necessity.
Maybe EQ2 designed content like this because they had SKs or maybe they designed SKs so they could have those raids. Don't know. But, if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
Assuming a raid force of 24 (which may or may not be), you cannot bring 6 tanks to control 12+ adds.
you can CC adds, no need to tank them all
Beefcake said:...if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
A thousand times no. This is exactly what crowd control is for. It's shocking to me how accustomed players have become to it not being a part of the game.
Raidan said:I hope if AoE spells are in game, and are powerful, that player characters (group members to avoid griefing) are able to be hit by the AoEs as well. Make it so if they are used, some strategy has to be used and not just jumping around spamming them without repercussions.
I'd take a similar stance on AoE taunting abilities - if warriors have abilities like AoE shouts, or dire lords AoE leeches, etc then I'd hope there'd be reprecussions for potentially using those as well, perhaps breaking CC etc.. Don't let taunting be "too easy."
Raidan is an old name, i remember from the EQ forums. pretty sure i got that right, I completely agree should be brought forward.
jpedrote said:Beefcake said:Most of my tanking experience comes from being the main off-tank as a Shadowknight in EQ2 in raids designed for 24 toons.
In those raids, there would often be 1 or 2 main epic mobs, then there would often be 3-10 other mobs that spawn throughout the fight.
Without large amounts of AE taunts/spells, there is no way a tank can grab agro on all those mobs. The SK was designed as an AE tank.
Now, if Pantheon does not design raids with several mobs that need one tank to control them while the rest of the raid force kills the main mobs, there would not be a need for AE taunts, etc.
But, if raids are designed with many adds, it is a necessity.
Maybe EQ2 designed content like this because they had SKs or maybe they designed SKs so they could have those raids. Don't know. But, if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
Assuming a raid force of 24 (which may or may not be), you cannot bring 6 tanks to control 12+ adds.
you can CC adds, no need to tank them all
When most raid mobs are immune to CC, you don't have a choice.
Even if they were not immune to CC, you cannot bring enough Enchanters to keep 6-10 mobs on lockdown, when they all spawn at once.
Once again, if Pantheon designs raids better, without making all the raid mobs immune to CC and so many simultaneously spawn, then it's not needed.
The problem is not with the players, it's the raid design.
To think otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding.
Raidan said:Appreciate the link Beefcake - keyword being "may." I hope AoEs are implemented as advertised.
It's also worth noting that friendly fire AoE's would be "the exception rather than the rule." I would personally rather have them be more common as it requires a lot more positioning and situational awareness (in other words, skill.) But I suppose that does also open up the door to some griefing/PvP opportunities.
In regards to taunt, I could maybe see some sort of "primal scream" that can intimidate all foes in the area, but it would have a very long cooldown and, more importantly, it would be resistable. And here's an interesting idea: maybe there's a chance that you are TOO intimidating and the mobs actually flee (like a Fear effect) instead of coming toward you. Other than that, in my mind, taunts should just be single-target. And again, be resistable with a chance to actually cause the mobs to flee.
Beefcake said:When most raid mobs are immune to CC, you don't have a choice.
Why in the world would you assume this?
Beefcake said:Even if they were not immune to CC, you cannot bring enough Enchanters to keep 6-10 mobs on lockdown, when they all spawn at once.
Unfounded assertion. 1) you don't know how pantheon enchanters work. 2) it worked fine in EQ1. 3) CC is frequently a collaborative effort between multiple classes; folks work together to handle it. If an enchanter needs time to lock everything down, then a druid might root one, a cleric might block one with a wall, a wizard might stun one, a bard might lull one, a necro might use her pet to off-tank one, etc
Beefcake said:...if Pantheon designs raids better, without making all the raid mobs immune to CC...The problem is not with the players, it's the raid design.
Yes. CC-imunity is lazy design.
Beefcake said:To think otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding.
Or perhaps it illustrates your severe lack of imagination
Shai said:Beefcake said:When most raid mobs are immune to CC, you don't have a choice.
Why in the world would you assume this?
Beefcake said:Even if they were not immune to CC, you cannot bring enough Enchanters to keep 6-10 mobs on lockdown, when they all spawn at once.
Unfounded assertion. 1) you don't know how pantheon enchanters work. 2) it worked fine in EQ1. 3) CC is frequently a collaborative effort between multiple classes; folks work together to handle it. If an enchanter needs time to lock everything down, then a druid might root one, a cleric might block one with a wall, a wizard might stun one, a bard might lull one, a necro might use her pet to off-tank one, etc
Beefcake said:...if Pantheon designs raids better, without making all the raid mobs immune to CC...The problem is not with the players, it's the raid design.
Yes. CC-imunity is lazy design.
Beefcake said:To think otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding.
Or perhaps it illustrates your severe lack of imagination
Maybe read my whole post for insight. As I said, I was describing poor raid design/experience in EQ2, where most raid mobs were CC immune, and raids were limited to 24 people, and most other classes did not have much CC ability.
I also stated that I assumed VR would design raids better than EQ2, without these problems.
But, instead of understanding the experience and limitations I was discussing, you just want to shout from a mountain top about how EQ1 was, which has nothing to do with the situation as described.
Clearly, there is no point in continuing a discussion with you. I have described a specific experience where AE was important and unavoidable, that I hope VR will not design. But clearly, you ignored all that.
Have a nice day.
Beefcake said:jpedrote said:Beefcake said:Most of my tanking experience comes from being the main off-tank as a Shadowknight in EQ2 in raids designed for 24 toons.
In those raids, there would often be 1 or 2 main epic mobs, then there would often be 3-10 other mobs that spawn throughout the fight.
Without large amounts of AE taunts/spells, there is no way a tank can grab agro on all those mobs. The SK was designed as an AE tank.
Now, if Pantheon does not design raids with several mobs that need one tank to control them while the rest of the raid force kills the main mobs, there would not be a need for AE taunts, etc.
But, if raids are designed with many adds, it is a necessity.
Maybe EQ2 designed content like this because they had SKs or maybe they designed SKs so they could have those raids. Don't know. But, if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
Assuming a raid force of 24 (which may or may not be), you cannot bring 6 tanks to control 12+ adds.
you can CC adds, no need to tank them all
When most raid mobs are immune to CC, you don't have a choice.
Even if they were not immune to CC, you cannot bring enough Enchanters to keep 6-10 mobs on lockdown, when they all spawn at once.
Once again, if Pantheon designs raids better, without making all the raid mobs immune to CC and so many simultaneously spawn, then it's not needed.
The problem is not with the players, it's the raid design.
To think otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding.
Why would adds be immune to CC? A boss or a elite guard i understand but a shitty add that join the fight? nah.
Remenber that Enchanter are not the only CC class, everyone will play a role and contribute to CC.
I don't see where my lack of understanding is, you're assuming that the raids will require aoe taunts or they will be impossible and 6+ tanks needed to deal with adds. I don't see how you can make this type of assumptions seeing that no raid content or tangile information as been released.
jpedrote said:Beefcake said:jpedrote said:Beefcake said:Most of my tanking experience comes from being the main off-tank as a Shadowknight in EQ2 in raids designed for 24 toons.
In those raids, there would often be 1 or 2 main epic mobs, then there would often be 3-10 other mobs that spawn throughout the fight.
Without large amounts of AE taunts/spells, there is no way a tank can grab agro on all those mobs. The SK was designed as an AE tank.
Now, if Pantheon does not design raids with several mobs that need one tank to control them while the rest of the raid force kills the main mobs, there would not be a need for AE taunts, etc.
But, if raids are designed with many adds, it is a necessity.
Maybe EQ2 designed content like this because they had SKs or maybe they designed SKs so they could have those raids. Don't know. But, if you have raids with many adds running around, you need many AE taunts/abilities to keep them under control.
Assuming a raid force of 24 (which may or may not be), you cannot bring 6 tanks to control 12+ adds.
you can CC adds, no need to tank them all
When most raid mobs are immune to CC, you don't have a choice.
Even if they were not immune to CC, you cannot bring enough Enchanters to keep 6-10 mobs on lockdown, when they all spawn at once.
Once again, if Pantheon designs raids better, without making all the raid mobs immune to CC and so many simultaneously spawn, then it's not needed.
The problem is not with the players, it's the raid design.
To think otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding.
Why would adds be immune to CC? A boss or a elite guard i understand but a shitty add that join the fight? nah.
Remenber that Enchanter are not the only CC class, everyone will play a role and contribute to CC.
I don't see where my lack of understanding is, you're assuming that the raids will require aoe taunts or they will be impossible and 6+ tanks needed to deal with adds. I don't see how you can make this type of assumptions seeing that no raid content or tangile information as been released.
Talk to SOE/Daybreak. They designed the mobs, not me.
As I stated originally, I was describing several raids in EQ2. No where did I say that VR would do things this way. In EQ2, Enchanters, being Illusionists and Coercer were the only real CC classes.
So, before you get all up on me claiming that I am assuming Pantheon will be this way, read the whole post.
Or, just skip the important parts and argue about something that was not even described so the narrative fits your point of view.
jpedrote said:Beefcake said:Talk to SOE/Daybreak. They desigNed the mobs, not me.
This is a Pantheon forum......
Yes it is, so no one should ever be allowed to show an example from another game, and ask that the situation not be repeated in Pantheon.
Make sure you take that point of view to all the other topics and tell people not to ever discuss their experiences in other games in a Pantheon forum, when describing how they would like to see Pantheon be different.
i played a wizi in eq1. this class had quite a nice arsenal of ae spell, though they were very mana consuming, created huge aggro and could also damage my self (not sure about my mates).
so there was quite a risk involved to even use AE. also it would break any mezzes of course. so it was rarely an AE-spamm fest. the tank would have hated me, because he would have had a terrible time getting the aggro back. nontheless, those spells offered also high reward if used at the right time.
because there were not many taunt abilities available, the risk of taking aggro was much higher and misstakes were punished a lot harder. as a wizi i also had huge burst, but often i waited until the mob was at 50% hp before I fully unload my damage. I could have done much more damage earlier, but then i would have taken aggro.
the playstyle was so different than for example wow which is most of the time "gogogo", rush and AE down everything until the boss.
people had to be carefull what and when they attacked. this made trash mob so much more engaging and excited and not just a timesink.
It's also important to remember that the mob AI will be different than what most people are used to. I think the NPC Dispositions will make it so that even an AoE taunt would not be a guaranteed catch-all. That would make the mobs seem pretty brainless. I'm thinking the fights will be so dynamic that pressing a single button to automatically change all of the mobs' priorities will not be possible or even the best strategy. With more complicated enemies come more complicated strategies.
Bazgrim said:In regards to taunt, I could maybe see some sort of "primal scream" that can intimidate all foes in the area, but it would have a very long cooldown and, more importantly, it would be resistable. And here's an interesting idea: maybe there's a chance that you are TOO intimidating and the mobs actually flee (like a Fear effect) instead of coming toward you.
Omg, I would love that!
So here you are fighting a mob and suddenly something goes wrong. Be it a train, more mobs spawning, the formerly CC'ed mobs breaking free and the fight is suddenly pure chaos! Tank uses Primal Scream and the mobs take one look at him, say "Nope!", turn and run. Including the mob you were fighting that's almost dead! Panic! Lock that mob down before we have to start all over!!
I love mechanics that can change a fight and forces you to suddenly adapt.
-sorte.
jpedrote said:Why would adds be immune to CC? A boss or a elite guard i understand but a shitty add that join the fight? nah.
Remenber that Enchanter are not the only CC class, everyone will play a role and contribute to CC.
I don't see where my lack of understanding is, you're assuming that the raids will require aoe taunts or they will be impossible and 6+ tanks needed to deal with adds. I don't see how you can make this type of assumptions seeing that no raid content or tangile information as been released.
1) Adds will be immune to CC in various raids or difficult single group dungeons. Bet the rent on that. The head guy of Pantheon is the same head guy from vanilla-Kunark-Velious era EQ1 and Vanguard. In both previous McQuaid games, CC immunity thrown about randomly was a feature of plenty of zones, dungoens, raids, etc. Ask a former raid enchanter how I know...go ahead.
2) Everyone contributing to CC is how AE taunt, off tanking, aggro kiting, root/stun, etc all came to be additional forms of non-enchanter/bard CC. Guess why those mechanics got developed? If you said "because there were tons of CC imune mobs in different raid encounters", move to the head of the class.
3) Pantheon will be an MMO, and I doubt very seriously it is a perfect tank 'n' spank on every encounter, with straightforward CC and "set 'em, knock 'em down" mechanics. So chances are good that non-traditional CC and AE taunts and what not will be in play. It is an MMO after all.