Dullahan said:Kellie said:The main issue I find with games that allow for 3-5+ hotbars, is they tend to also allow macro binding to extreme levels, much like Everquest 2 or even worst Rift. Where you can bind 20 odd skills to one button if you so wish, and in doing so you may as well end up having 1-6 buttons only as you end up only pressing 1 or 2 buttons macro to inane levels.
I'm ok with having many buttons but dont turn it into a macro fest, it becomes really bland fast when you are just pressing 11111 as quick as you can to fire off all the skills bound to a single key.Cough*vanguard*cough.
VG had a limit of 250 characters and 10 commands per macro and that was only ever maxed on 2-3 classes due to GCD etc. So not only was it nowhere near as extreme as that it also was limited and controlled to still have balance.
A Rogue was the most macro-able class in-game and I only had 2 capped macros and a ton of individually selected abilities depending on the situation, so it is a little misleading to "coughVGcough" when it was nowhere near as extreme as what Kellie was explaining in EQ2 and Rift. ;)
Kilsin said:NoobieDoo said:I absolutely love the unlimited use of spells and abilities we had in VG (other than GDC etc. which worked well for VG), I much prefer it over the EQ style of locking me to 8-12, which I still dislike so much after all these years, VG gave us the freedom and in my opinion, took much greater skill to micromanage so many abilities and spells for any given situation, but it is personal choice, so for those who don't like it, that is their prerogative and we can agree that what we like the VG way better and there is nothing wrong with that, no need to explain yourself to anyone ;)
I for one loved the situational choices forced by the spell limitations in EverQuest, and it's something I've missed in every MMO ever since. I think what sets it apart however is that the choices were never just limited to combat skills (ala GW1/2 or ESO), but took into account all of the environmental interactions that might come up.
I recall fretting over decisions as to whether or not I should sacrifice a crucial CC in favor of tools like invisibility to help navigate a zone, or taking the gamble on loading up an additional stun or damage spell instead of having gate ready and waiting for when things took a turn south (and let's face it, where else but EQ has that ever been a legitimate fear?)
I think so long as there are meaningful choices to be made and it doesn't just lead to selecting an optimal rotation, it's a system I ultimately prefer.
Limited ability slots makes the game more fun. It forcEs you to think about what you're doing at all times. Need to travel? Choose abilities that will aid you escape harsh situations. Need to face a boss? Make sure to set your abilities up for that scenario too. It's tactics. It allows two of the same classes to be important to a group because they're going to spec a certain way and handle certain responsibilities.
How many abilities should we have access to? I can't say for sure , but 8 to 10 sounds right.
Think about the dynamic of having two different creatures in an environment. One is weaker to fire and the other creature is more resistant to it. Do you spec balanced for both creatures or risk going all in for one and hope you don't get an add from the other creature type? Or what if there is a climate factor involved that negatively effects the team. Do you leave some slots open for escape and defensive abilities in case you or a group mate gets in a bind?
This game is meant to be challenging and meant to have interaction. Are you going to give up if you can't find a tank or do you have a monk play the role and have 2 healers to compensate, or ask a certain class to deal more DPS than they would traditionally? These are elements that make a game fun and interesting. Teams cooperate with each other to make due with the tools at hand.
I feel like I shared my opinion. Thanks for your time.
Dullahan said:In EQ2, you could put all of your spammable damage in 1 macro and it would follow the order listed as long as you turned off ability queue.
Almost everything in EQ2 has a cooldown, so there are not really "spammable" damage abilities in that sense. And even if you're right about that (but since I never really used macros beyond a couple temps, clicky items, and to add flavor text for group and raid, I can't be 100% sure), doing so would serve little purpose since your DPS rotation would be absolute garbage. Certainly in more recent expansions, DPS rotations, even of utility and healing classes, are complex enough that macroing anything beyond 2 abilities wouldn't really serve to give you an advantage. My experience was anything beyond 2 abilities, and it's basically a crap-shoot.
Rift macros were really terrible in that regard though. Some souls could have almost an entire rotation in one macro and still be within like 5% optimal. They "fixed" this by removing the cooldowns on a lot of abilities, making it almost pointless to macro them. It's still not great, but it isn't quite the one-button-wonder it used to be.
With regards to the actual topic at hand, I personally don't like limits on abilities, but I'll live with that if that is how it is going to be. However, if my character has learned the ability, I don't understand why, from a lore standpoint, they should be restricted to using only a small subset of those at any one time. It seems like mana is actually a big deal now, so spamming things indiscriminately is going to be impossible anyhow. But like I say, if restriction is the design decision that's been made, then I'll make do with that.
Dullahan said:In EQ2, you could put all of your spammable damage in 1 macro and it would follow the order listed as long as you turned off ability queue.
No. Mostly because there is no such thing as spammable damage in EQ2.
I can do the same thing in any game with an autohotkey macro but it isn't even a tenth as effective as actually playing the game as intended.
Kilsin said:I absolutely love the unlimited use of spells and abilities we had in VG (other than GDC etc. which worked well for VG), I much prefer it over the EQ style of locking me to 8-12, which I still dislike so much after all these years, VG gave us the freedom and in my opinion, took much greater skill to micromanage so many abilities and spells for any given situation, but it is personal choice, so for those who don't like it, that is their prerogative and we can agree that what we like the VG way better and there is nothing wrong with that, no need to explain yourself to anyone ;)
I prefer the EQ1 restriction, as stated in your FAQ, the game should be more focused about your surrounding, what abilities monsters are using to counter it etc. I have played too many games where mashing buttons is the only challenge available. Players must learn a skill rotation like EQ2, FFXIV, SWTOR, etc etc. to maximize their DPS. While you are doing this you lose focus of your surrounding and it become a self centered playstyle.
I agree that 8 skills/spells isn't enough but 10-12 sounds fine to me. Having to sit down and memorize a new ability was a challenge while dungeon crawling. Also favor a slower combat pace which I prefer over new games.
It's much more like pen and paper also, where a wizard must memorize his spells for the day coming. Games is more about tactical and strategy then a pure action based game.
I'm a fan of at least some limitations so I don't end up with 5 bars on my screen, but I've personally found that muscle memory works better than actual memory in games where I have 5 hotbars. I use my keypad Razer Nostromo and then I layout my hotbars to match the number of keys and layout on my keypad controller. I have my mouse in my right hand and my nostromo in my left and the keyboard in the middle. I only use the keyboard for misc. stuff. I use the keypad for almost everything. And that way when I have hotbars setup my muscles remember where abilities are so I don't have to.
I couldn't imagine having to raid these days without one. Especially as a healer during moving fights where you 'can't stand in the green stuff'. Having to watch the screen and your cooldowns and move and stop and cast pffft. I'd be pulling my hair out if I had to remember where 5 hotbars worth of skills were located. I'm an older guy. I burned all my brain cells in my teenage years, I need some slack :)
Since things change later on, requiring you to mem spells of greater numbers i recommend it be limited to 12. If we reduce it, it would only really be restricting the lower level spells of that same line. Sometimes utility spells are needed to cast something of little importances.
Rains, nukes, Dots all those would have 3 slots already unless you have a different line of those spells. Since i dont know the spells or the lineups thus far i would only assume the 12 spell bar makes more sense to use.
Also we should have the ability to allow macros, so we can do the same things we did in EQ. It was very benificial to groups and raids.
Meldor said:Kilsin said:I absolutely love the unlimited use of spells and abilities we had in VG (other than GDC etc. which worked well for VG), I much prefer it over the EQ style of locking me to 8-12, which I still dislike so much after all these years, VG gave us the freedom and in my opinion, took much greater skill to micromanage so many abilities and spells for any given situation, but it is personal choice, so for those who don't like it, that is their prerogative and we can agree that what we like the VG way better and there is nothing wrong with that, no need to explain yourself to anyone ;)
I prefer the EQ1 restriction, as stated in your FAQ, the game should be more focused about your surrounding, what abilities monsters are using to counter it etc. I have played too many games where mashing buttons is the only challenge available. Players must learn a skill rotation like EQ2, FFXIV, SWTOR, etc etc. to maximize their DPS. While you are doing this you lose focus of your surrounding and it become a self centered playstyle.
I agree that 8 skills/spells isn't enough but 10-12 sounds fine to me. Having to sit down and memorize a new ability was a challenge while dungeon crawling. Also favor a slower combat pace which I prefer over new games.
It's much more like pen and paper also, where a wizard must memorize his spells for the day coming. Games is more about tactical and strategy then a pure action based game.
Vanguard had that feeling of needing to be aware of your surroundings, though, it wasn't mashing buttons by any means! It actually took more skill to know which ability/spell to use in any given situation, if you have 4 hotbars full of different abilities/spells then you need to know which one does what and know when to use them, at what time and during what situations, the wrong decision can cost you your life or cause the group to wipe, it took a deep knowledge of your classes abilities and spells to play your character to its full potential and while even a novice could try to "mash buttons" and have some kind of result, it was usually not a positive ending for that person.
I wasn't having a go at anyones preference, though, you are more than welcome to like the more limited and easier playstyle of 8-12 abilities if that suits your playstyle better but I was just countering the "challenge" and "skill" statements, the limited skills just makes you prepare before travel/combat and limits your content to that ability set, having them all available at any time not only opens you up to any situation it also makes you even more aware of your surroundings and what abilities/spells you may need to use at any given time, having used both for many years, the unlimited skills is definitely more of a challenge and has a higher skill ceiling than the limited ability sets, without a doubt and, in my opinion, better suits my style of play, but as I said, each to their own, there is no right or wrong answer here and both styles would feel right at home in Pantheon but we are going with the limited abilities set. ;)
EQ allows you to define spell sets. These give a lot of flexibility, and if you don't make a spell set with all spell slots, it can be loaded very quickly. Preparing spell sets requires knowledge of your class. I hope PRotF will include a mechanism like that :)
One could argue that spell sets are just a bandaid for simply allowing unlimited spells. However I still like the idea of having to prepare for a given challenge, and that includes setting up the most effective spells beforehand.
Again, I will be very disapointed if we can only have 8 spells up. I love the people who say "I like to think what spells I need to have up". Umm, no you dont. Any numbskull knows what spells you need to have up. Where limited spell slots sucks the worst is in buffing. Im currently playing an enchanter on one of the EQ progression servers and in groups it SUCKS constantly redoing spells every 25 mins to rebuff everyone.
Either have buffs last forever as long as im in your group or have seperate spell bars for buffs and "other" spells. There is no thinking about what spells you need to have up when traveling this is just LOL to me. "Thinking" about what situation you are comming up against and meming spells for 1 mob, then "thinking" about the next mob on pull and meming a different spell? This sounds like fun to you?
I understand people who dont want scripting and thats fine, even though people who actually do this, like in EQ2, are terrible players that dont maximize their characters potential.
For the love if god, please have at least 12-18 spell slots.
Ask yourselves this, how many times did you mem a spell durning a fight? not many
Ask yourselves this, how many times did you mem a spell while sitting. Many times.
So utility spells like buffs are non issue loading even a 2nd spell page. Non active spells shouldnt matter... and if you arggo mobs because you buffed well, thats your fault. but active spells on 1st page of spells should be ok, non active spells on page two i would be ok with.
Macros could cast page 2 or out of the spell book doesnt matter to me. So the idea of 12 + spells on page one are ok, but only active spells and page 2 non active spells, but loaded.
Most of page 2 are utility buffs, non damaging spells etc...
Kilsin said:... the limited skills just makes you prepare before travel/combat and limits your content to that ability set, having them all available at any time not only opens you up to any situation it also makes you even more aware of your surroundings and what abilities/spells you may need to use at any given time, having used both for many years, the unlimited skills is definitely more of a challenge and has a higher skill ceiling than the limited ability sets, without a doubt and, in my opinion, better suits my style of play, but as I said, each to their own, there is no right or wrong answer here and both styles would feel right at home in Pantheon but we are going with the limited abilities set. ;)
Spot on explanation.
Limited skills are always brought up as some kind of added "challange", when in reality the opposite is true. How hard is it to look up a skill set on a wiki? Compare that to having to pick the right skills in a fight. Where is the challange in only having 8-12 skills. That almost removes the need to think about what you are pressing.
Personally i hate the other aspect more tho: Not being able to adapt to unexpected or new eviroments. If visiting a new zone for the first time, i don't want to look up a skill set on a wiki. I also don't want to outright die just because i picked the wrong skills while knowing i could have done it with other skills that i SHOULD be able to use anyways.
Noone forces anyone to use more then 1 hotbar. If you like swapping out skills for every situation: Go for it. You can always limit yourself as harsh as you see fit. Don't force that on others please :-)
There was 0 challenges loading spells, it was more an annoyance to the caster. You know this if you played a caster class for years. here is why.
Example
Group says buff 1 wore off, group player says buff 4 wore off, group player 2 says buff 3 wore off.....
it was a constant loading of spells either by macro, because we where annoyed so much, or self loading spells from the book.
There is 0 challenge to loading spells. It was rather rare to load a spell durning an open fight. You normally loaded your DPS spells and some basic utility spells.
The only time it was a problem was on down time, you had to use a macro to load in all buffs.
one by one clicking adds from a book was the most annoying part in EQ, wow, and many other games. Macros are the only thing that made life easier. So what part of challenge do you see?
beautifully said:Again, I will be very disapointed if we can only have 8 spells up. I love the people who say "I like to think what spells I need to have up". Umm, no you dont. Any numbskull knows what spells you need to have up. Where limited spell slots sucks the worst is in buffing. Im currently playing an enchanter on one of the EQ progression servers and in groups it SUCKS constantly redoing spells every 25 mins to rebuff everyone.
Either have buffs last forever as long as im in your group or have seperate spell bars for buffs and "other" spells. There is no thinking about what spells you need to have up when traveling this is just LOL to me. "Thinking" about what situation you are comming up against and meming spells for 1 mob, then "thinking" about the next mob on pull and meming a different spell? This sounds like fun to you?
I understand people who dont want scripting and thats fine, even though people who actually do this, like in EQ2, are terrible players that dont maximize their characters potential.
For the love if god, please have at least 12-18 spell slots.
You do know that eventually, those buffs you're having to re-do every 25 mins eventually will last hours? You always start off with short duration anything and eventually, as you get stronger, stuff lasts longer.
The rest of your 'argument' is just trolling.
I think you ment you dont agree with his arguement, or statement. Trolling means something else btw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Since they're using 10 as of now, and since they're probably going to go with what the majority of people want, I'll throw in that I also prefer limitations. If you want to stick with the 10 that you guys are using now, that's fine. I functioned for years in EQ with 8, I don't need it made easier for me now.
Is this a play style decsision combined with limits to the player skill/spell roster? If a player is limited to 8 slots hypathetically one has to plan for environment and tactical situations. The challange is how one reacts and to what is encountered. 3 hot bars with 8 to 10 slots per is reasonable on the screen. Maybe with a hide feature. Macros should be an option but I also agree as some have posted macro hell is not fun. Understanding your character abilities and limits are pretty much key for a good experience and to be happy with the results. Key mashing and rotation spamming is not my idea of a good time. Moving freely in combat with minimal focus on hat bars is optimal to me.
Spell cool downs are an interesting issue. You either have them or focus the cast based on mana or power. Spamming spells without limits is rediculous. Melee characters have the same issue. Spell and attack timing is needed based on what that skill is. I remember a particular patch in WoW that allowed this. Complete mayhem in pvp and raids were a train wreck. Aggro was insane to control If at all. GW2 had one too. Basically limits or cool downs are needed.
Back to the hot bar and casting related features. A hide feature would be great with active bars in waiting. Then possibly you could have a higher slot count for skill deployment.
Just throwing out out some thoughts.
Ox