The title is pretty self explanatory. One of my favorite parts of some EQ expansions (Kunark, Velious, Luclin, PoP, etc.) is that they provided content that was doable at a variety of levels.
Kunark added an entire new starting area/city that would carry you from level 1 to 60 with amazing content. Velious content started around what, say 35-40ish and went all the way to 60? Luclin added yet another starting area with a plethora of content that would take you all the way from 1 to endgame. PoP, like Velious, started higher up but still offered content that spanned over about 20 levels (46ish to 65).
I always thought that this added a huge incentive to play alts (a positive thing), and also added massive replayability to the lower level ranges.
That was a great feature. EQ2 also did it with the Echos of Faydwer added a whole new starter zone and everyone wanted to build a new Fae alt and level it up It added amazing content for the entire level Range and made it so enjoyable.
I know I get so much more enjoyment if I have a reason to roll another alt and try out all the new content offered and not just a certain teir that gets old fast.
Kalgore said:That was a great feature. EQ2 also did it with the Echos of Faydwer added a whole new starter zone and everyone wanted to build a new Fae alt and level it up It added amazing content for the entire level Range and made it so enjoyable.
I know I get so much more enjoyment if I have a reason to roll another alt and try out all the new content offered and not just a certain teir that gets old fast.
Yeah, Echoes of Faydwer was actually my favorite EQ2 expansion. :)
Could agree more with the OP. Expansions like that give you new incentive to play alts, new areas.. more variety etc :)
One thing I didn't/don't like tho is when they make certain zones superior to the previous zones in expansions. (Like Paludal caverns, kurns etc) Should be about the same as the previous zones in my opinion.. xp wise atleast. Should be about choice... not everyone jam-packed into one zone because it's better exp. Sounds anti-social of me.. but it got overcrowded too much I feel.
Nimryl said:Could agree more with the OP. Expansions like that give you new incentive to play alts, new areas.. more variety etc :)
One thing I didn't/don't like tho is when they make certain zones superior to the previous zones in expansions. (Like Paludal caverns, kurns etc) Should be about the same as the previous zones in my opinion.. xp wise atleast. Should be about choice... not everyone jam-packed into one zone because it's better exp. Sounds anti-social of me.. but it got overcrowded too much I feel.
My issue wasnt so much XP but the loot. The Loot in the nbew zones was always better then in old zones. I know it would be a lot of work but I feel when an Xpac comes out if you have a new zone for lvl1-20 with new and awesome gear. you should revamp the old zones for gear drops as well other wise those old zones become ghost towns.
Nimryl said:Could agree more with the OP. Expansions like that give you new incentive to play alts, new areas.. more variety etc :)
One thing I didn't/don't like tho is when they make certain zones superior to the previous zones in expansions. (Like Paludal caverns, kurns etc) Should be about the same as the previous zones in my opinion.. xp wise atleast. Should be about choice... not everyone jam-packed into one zone because it's better exp. Sounds anti-social of me.. but it got overcrowded too much I feel.
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of EQ's ZEM mechanic in general, except for the fact that it did have a tendency to encourage players to go to more underpopulated zones.
Basically I believe they just bumped the ZEM to be massive in a lot of Luclin zones (Kurn's also had a HUGE ZEM compared to classic zones in that level range), so they just automatically become better for xp than the alternatives.
All in all I agree. If they make all of the content for a given level range compelling and fun, people will go to those places. It's kind of a challenge to do though, because some zones are just obviously better. Either in terms of format, quantity of mobs, etc.
Liav said: All in all I agree. If they make all of the content for a given level range compelling and fun, people will go to those places. It's kind of a challenge to do though, because some zones are just obviously better. Either in terms of format, quantity of mobs, etc.
I agree...I think that every xpac should have a wide range of levels, seen to many that were just for High end which I guess fits with the whole "game doesnt start till max level" mentality of most modern mmos. You dont need a starting city with each one but at least a few low level areas or maybe a dungeon or two, and yeah keep the gear in line with the gear from older zones.
Sevens said:I agree...I think that every xpac should have a wide range of levels, seen to many that were just for High end which I guess fits with the whole "game doesnt start till max level" mentality of most modern mmos. You dont need a starting city with each one but at least a few low level areas or maybe a dungeon or two, and yeah keep the gear in line with the gear from older zones.
Well, there does need to be some gear progression.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think this will probably be the case with Pantheon. I'm guessing that the Progeny system will play into this as well. I'm going to be perfectly honest here, as someone who played the same character for over 13 years in Everquest and never dedicated any real time to alts, I felt a bit of a twist in my gut when I first read about the Progeny system. But I'm keeping an open mind about it and waiting to see how it gets rolled out. The main reason for this being that if Brad and his crew can actually create a system that encourages people to re-roll and re-play content, that means that new content will need to be designed around all levels of game-play. This has the added bonus of preventing a top-heavy game world so that when new players enter the game 2 or 3 years down the road, they don't see a population that's all max-level and find themselves with no way to group up and tackle low-level content.
ahh then you all will be happy to read that Brad already said that he will constantly be implementing systems with ways to progress horizontally:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2463/can-pantheon-have-diplomacy-vg-soh-bards
We're confident that we can launch this game as described and that it will be a compelling and rewarding experience. But with launch being also just a starting point, we're designing systems that are meant to be expanded. The typical 'expansion' is more areas to explore, an increased level cap, and new and exciting (and often more powerful) items and abilities.
But we want to do more than that post-launch. We also want to add some uniquely playing classes like the Bard. We want to have alternate ruleset servers, like PvP and RP servers. Then we want to take the game even further, some of which we've hinted at on the web page and in interviews and such. Something like Diplomacy, while I am *not* announcing or promising such a system this early on, would be another way to advance your character and contend with the environment that we could add post-launch, building upon our solid foundation. Building houses in a non-instanced environment is another. More complex means of travel, like owning your own persistent ship might be another. Evolving vehicles (horses, ships, etc.) beyond transportation and allowing them to engage in combat would be another. Harnessing user-generated content yet another.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense. It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place. But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally. I wasn't able to fully realize this long term potential of MMOs with EQ and Vanguard, but with Pantheon I definitely intend to. We want to keep the company small and focused, perhaps explore the idea of another game, but NOT to create another SoE where we have lots of different games in development. We'd rather have fewer games, a smaller more focused company, not sell out the company and stick by our games for many years. There are so many ideas we have for MMOs, but you just can't get all of those ideas into an MMO by launch. It's a process that should take years, keeping us busy and happy, and hopefully keeping all of the players excited as well -- create more than a game but an actual home -- having a blast with the game at launch, but also looking forward to what Pantheon could become months, years, and even a decade down the road. I look at EQ and how long it's been online and am very proud and encouraged. But with EQ, it didn't really expand that much horizontally -- the focus was on new zones, new mobs, higher level caps, new AAs, etc. Very vertical. So while I'm proud that EQ has lasted so long, I won't be satisfied again with an MMO that just expands vertically. "
@Zarriya That's great. I love the fact he won't sell out.. I hate games that sold out then ruined. I'd never sell out, not ever... you don't know what others will do with it.
Endgame is important but personally I want to spend a long time on the journey there. I also hope the zones, mobs, dungeons, etc in Pantheon when it's first released are still relevant years down the road. Expansions can add new content and zones but I don't want the old stuff to end up abandoned as a result. It's rather depressing to revisit a zone you played in your first time around, remembering having fun with other players only to find nobody is there any more because a new zone is "better".
I think this is a great topic! I posted something awhile ago in another thread about how I would like to see expansions work. In a perfect game, it would have tiers, where the latest expansion didn't completely obliterate the previous content but used it as a stepping stone:
Tier 1 - Base Game End Game Solo Gear (gathered around lvl 40-50). Lets say this is 10 HP per armor piece
Tier 2 - Base Game End Game Group Gear (gathered near lvl 50 so maybe 48+). base HP of 20 HP per armor piece.
Tier 3 - T1 Raid Gear - Requires a moderate raid force with moderate raid skills. lvl 50+ Base HP of 30 HP.
Tier 3 - T2 Raid Gear - This is what most people will go for before the new expansion comes out. Should be hard to get but not impossible. Base HP of 40.
Tier 4 - T3 Raid Gear - This will be on the end boss of each dungeon. Would only be 1-2 pieces (I.E Chest and Weapon) and would have a base HP of 50.
Then when the New Expansion comes out. Say it raises the level cap to 60 You would still have all of ^^^^ implemented and would only need to design one new tier maybe 2 at most. the list below will assume only a 1 step up and not a 2 step up. base HP of 65
Tier 1 - Is now used to level up to the new max
Tier 2 - Is now the new Expansion 1 Solo Gear (gathered 48+). base HP of 20 HP per armor piece.
Tier 3 - T1 Raid Gear turns into End Game Expansion 1 Group Content. lvl 50+ Base HP of 30 HP.
Tier 3 - T1 Raid for Expansion 1 So will be the new "easy" raid tier Base HP of 40.
Tier 4 - T2 raid for Expansion 1 So will be the new middle raid where most people will be at. Base HP of 50.
Tier 5 - T4 Raid Gear - New Hardest bosses. Same thing as old t4 loot where it would only be chest/weapons in the newest expansion.
By doing it this way you only have to balance 1 new tier of loot each expansion. It would make it so that the old expansion was still viable (mid range guilds can easily raid newest expansion T2 raid, and old expansion t3 raid as they are the same difficulty and Hardcore guilds can focus on the end tier for the base game to get those few slots there they still need and work on the top two tiers in the newest.
This gives you a nice stepping stone to not overshadow group content. To make it so that old content is still relevant up to three expansions forward (think of how many raiding guilds were still raiding ele and PoTime while starting in GoD, or still raiding end game GoD when starting in OoW? This also helps fight stat inflation as you wont have to come up with 5-6 new tiers each expansion (Solo/Level up, group, and 1-3 raid tiers.
Mostly agree, this is great for keeping old content relevant for a long time. One thing I would cherry pick/critique is that I think having less tiers in general would be better.
For instance:
Tier 1 (Unofficial) - Mostly random drops from near-cap group content. A mishmash of gear, basically, like classic EQ. Prices on auctions for these drops would be reasonable for solo players to be able to simply purchase them outright from people who provide them. A skilled player or players of strong solo classes (like an EQ Necro, for instance) could also maybe solo some of the stuff that drops this gear.
Tier 2 ("Official" Tier 1) - More class/role specific gear with relatively defined stat quality. Max level group content drops this, with some sidegrades to your unofficial tier 1 mishmash gear.
Tier 3 ("Official" Tier 2) - First raid tier. This is the gear that the majority of the raiding population would likely end up with.
Tier 4 ("Official Tier 3) - Second raid tier. The best of the best that is available for the current max level raid content.
In each "official" tier, I think it'd be healthy to see a decent sprinkling of gear with unique effects that could be considered sidegrades to the next tier. For instance, focus effects or clickable items.
Just my opinion, of course!
Edit: Added some clarity to the Tier 1 (Unofficial) regarding how solo players might acquire the stuff.
Liav said:Mostly agree, this is great for keeping old content relevant for a long time. One thing I would cherry pick/critique is that I think having less tiers in general would be better.
For instance:
Tier 1 (Unofficial) - Mostly random drops from near-cap group content. A mishmash of gear, basically, like classic EQ.
Tier 2 ("Official" Tier 1) - More class/role specific gear with relatively defined stat quality. Max level group content drops this, with some sidegrades to your unofficial tier 1 mishmash gear.
Tier 3 ("Official" Tier 2) - First raid tier. This is the gear that the majority of the raiding population would likely end up with.
Tier 4 ("Official Tier 3) - Second raid tier. The best of the best that is available for the current max level raid content.
In each "official" tier, I think it'd be healthy to see a decent sprinkling of gear with unique effects that could be considered sidegrades to the next tier. For instance, focus effects or clickable items.
Just my opinion, of course!
If I understand you correctly, Dreconic, the progression is never giving you a full set of the best top level gear because each tier has only a few pieces within it. There still may be dozens of opens for, say, your bracer slot in Tier3 but Tier3 won't ever give you a full set of armor. You still could, at each expansion replace everything but it is done piecemeal. Bummer for those that like armor sets, and maybe there is a place for those somewhere, but I like your concept.
One problem facing developers when introducing a new expansion is what do you balance that next expansion of content against?
I personal dislike a tiered approach for armor and weapons due to the fact that it boxes you into the same theme park mentality that we have with MMOs today. I just want a world I can explore with friends and family, have some great adventures together. The discovery of gear would be a bonus.
In regards to the OP, I'm hoping Pantheon can make some the of expansions more about lore and story then about new content to explore.
What I mean by this is that instead of discovering a new island or going to the moon.... That they would create expansions that had huge invasions that helped the world evolve. A race could be displaced by a huge battle that was fought over months of in game time and the out come would have two paths. One that would lead us to a city being taken over by sieging race and another where we pushed them back and that race got to keep their land. It would be more work obviously due to the multiple paths. However it would keep the lands from becoming a ghost town over the years. The orcs might have displaced the elves during a battle and for two years the elves planned their attack and they finally won their city back with the help of the heros of Terminus.
Anyway just a thought... I just hate seeing ghost towns and this is the best way I can think of that will stop some of that. The best way to reuse the lands we already have and not to spread out the populations. Even if the outcome was already predecided it would be better in my opinion than a whole new island or moon or dimension.
Another example would be a plague that wiped out a faction or hurt them very badly. The plague was caused by some evil that was burried beneath the city from a corrupt king blah blah blah... You get the idea... lore and story trump new hill to climb over and keeps the people together and feels like the world is more alive.
Niien said:I personal dislike a tiered approach for armor and weapons due to the fact that it boxes you into the same theme park mentality that we have with MMOs today. I just want a world I can explore with friends and family, have some great adventures together. The discovery of gear would be a bonus.
In regards to the OP, I'm hoping Pantheon can make some the of expansions more about lore and story then about new content to explore.
What I mean by this is that instead of discovering a new island or going to the moon.... That they would create expansions that had huge invasions that helped the world evolve. A race could be displaced by a huge battle that was fought over months of in game time and the out come would have two paths. One that would lead us to a city being taken over by sieging race and another where we pushed them back and that race got to keep their land. It would be more work obviously due to the multiple paths. However it would keep the lands from becoming a ghost town over the years. The orcs might have displaced the elves during a battle and for two years the elves planned their attack and they finally won their city back with the help of the heros of Terminus.
Anyway just a thought... I just hate seeing ghost towns and this is the best way I can think of that will stop some of that. The best way to reuse the lands we already have and not to spread out the populations. Even if the outcome was already predecided it would be better in my opinion than a whole new island or moon or dimension.
I agree with you on the Teired Items.
They just seem to much like a gear check / score
Classis EQ didnt have teirs, dont know about VG if it did or not
I love the idea of new expansions have areas for lower level players as well as areas for max level players. It gives the whole player base something to look forward too and enjoy. As others have mentioned though releasing new content does have the possibility of making old equipment obsolete which should be avoided as it just becomes a tread mill. New expansion = whole new set of gear that is the same as every other person playing your class. That is one of the things I absolutely hated in WoW. The fact that everyone basically looked the same.
I'd like to see gear for different situations so that for instance you might have one set of gear for dungeons with a lot of spell casters and another set of gear for say a dungeon with a lot of melee NPCs. You could also add variety to gear by giving some items really rare clickly effects that are desired for years to come that people want to collect because they are so usful. I know I did that for some items in EQ. An example would be the pre-nerf Circlet of Shadow which was very useful.
Edit:
Sorry drifted off-topic there.
Liav said:I still think the tiered approach is fine. I don't expect to have to swap entire gear sets, just a few select items to adapt situationally.
Also, appearance slots remedy everyone looking identical.
Very true. I've never really used appearence slots in any game I have played so it would be interesting to see how it works out in practice. Would you see appearence items dropping from group and raid mobs or would you see it as being quest reward items?
Edit:
Or perhaps crafted by players?