Perhaps not directly trade skills, but at least a sub-group: the gathering skills. I enjoy gathering from rocks or trees, or just plants when out in the wild. Its nice if you can get some rare materials that way too (some others should come from adventuring however, like drops from hard group or raid mobs). VG had a great system with its group harvesting, and a separate equipment tab for the required gear. I think my favorite harvesting skill is mining in most games, since the crunching sound from the tool on the rocks is so satisfying :)
As for "real" tradeskills. I don't have a clear favorite. I've done scribing (scrolls, in UO), alchemy (EQ2), leatherworking (VG), masonry (Archeage). In EQ I did all tradeskills a bit (for the Coldain Shawl). All of these were mostly enjoyable. Some of my fondest crafting memories go back to EQ where I made a set of tattered leather armor for my barb warrior. Later on I learned a bit of smithing and made some banded armor for him. Great times!
Tradeskilling is something that I have always enjoyed, but as a secondary activity. I’ve always felt that player created items were always necessary in the very early stages of almost every game I’ve played: crafted bags for inventory space, basic armor upgrades, and minor potions perhaps. But, as the game progresses, player-made items lose their luster; mob-dropped items invariably become more powerful, more sought-after, and much more readily available. There seems to be this strange ebb and flow in the crafting systems. Crafting is important very early, and very late in the game, but in the 50 or so levels between it is mostly ignored (much like the mid-level character levels and zones … but that’s another topic). Sure, crafters can produce some odds and ends here and there that player “collectors” might be interested in, but I’d venture to guess that 90% of what crafters make in-game is strictly “skill leveling trash” that just gets DE’d or sold to a vendor. I find all that production of vendor trash just to level a skill a strange and unrewarding dynamic. So, while I like the idea of player crafting, I find its implementation very poorly thought-out in most games. I’d love to see a more robust crafting system that actually kept pace with or eclipsed mob-dropped items in quality.
My favorite tradeskill often varies. I try, as I’m sure most folks do, to develop a tradeskill that has a symbiotic relationship to my character’s class. Either that, or, yes, I’ll admit it, I have created “crafters” … characters that are made simply to produce the few money-making items in the crafting system.
As for "real" tradeskills. I don't have a clear favorite. I've done scribing (scrolls, in UO), alchemy (EQ2), leatherworking (VG), masonry (Archeage). In EQ I did all tradeskills a bit (for the Coldain Shawl). All of these were mostly enjoyable. Some of my fondest crafting memories go back to EQ where I made a set of tattered leather armor for my barb warrior. Later on I learned a bit of smithing and made some banded armor for him. Great times!
... and these were good times. I remember the early levels and feeling empowered by making a lot of my own gear. And the Shawl was a great quest. So much work went into these activities, and the whole process was very rewarding.
Sarim said:Perhaps not directly trade skills, but at least a sub-group: the gathering skills. I enjoy gathering from rocks or trees, or just plants when out in the wild. Its nice if you can get some rare materials that way too (some others should come from adventuring however, like drops from hard group or raid mobs). VG had a great system with its group harvesting, and a separate equipment tab for the required gear. I think my favorite harvesting skill is mining in most games, since the crunching sound from the tool on the rocks is so satisfying :)
As for "real" tradeskills. I don't have a clear favorite. I've done scribing (scrolls, in UO), alchemy (EQ2), leatherworking (VG), masonry (Archeage). In EQ I did all tradeskills a bit (for the Coldain Shawl). All of these were mostly enjoyable. Some of my fondest crafting memories go back to EQ where I made a set of tattered leather armor for my barb warrior. Later on I learned a bit of smithing and made some banded armor for him. Great times!
Nice Sarim, I also really enjoyed the VG harvesting, I got the same satisfying sounds from cutting trees down (luckily in a fantasy setting and not in real life!) with my Varanjar Tuurgin Shaman, it was so soothing and therapeutic just chopping away, the group harvesting was pretty cool too, company was always welcomed when harvesting for long periods :)
I haven't quite found a crafting system that I have enjoyed as much as I did with VGs, it was not perfect by any means but it was very in depth and felt like such a huge sphere on it's own.
I enjoy tradeskilling but I have some criticisms about some of it. If I have to spend a lot of coin and time to create an item that becomes obsolete relatively quickly than from my point of view the invesment was not worth the result. There ought to be some equivalency. Others in these forums have mentioned how tradeskilling and crafting should be integral to adventuring. Another idea is to incorporate a system where there is an active team approach to crafting. Both of these ideas are excellent examples of a more integrated and social tradeskilling system. It would be great to see work toward those concepts (or similar concepts) in Pantheon.
Not sure I have a favorite tradeskill though. Armors over weapons, food consumables over potion consumables, enchanting and jewel crafting were favorites generally speaking.
I've never enjoyed crafting. I find it to tedious and don't have the patience for it.
If strictly gathering then I can handle it. If a trade was ever created that didn't involve much of the "crafting" portion then I might be on board.
I'm probably the minority in this topic though. :)
oooo what if a "treasure hunter" was a thing! lol
-War
I usually find them tedious as well. I'm only going on tradeskills in EQ and WoW as that's what I'm familiar with. I just remember them being money sinks with almost no worth until you maxed them out. Even along the way, the stuff you could make that were wearable items were typically under-powered compared to the droppable stuff.
I did enjoy some of the more trivial tradeskills like fishing and brewing just for fun.
xtnpd said:Tradeskilling is something that I have always enjoyed, but as a secondary activity. I’ve always felt that player created items were always necessary in the very early stages of almost every game I’ve played: crafted bags for inventory space, basic armor upgrades, and minor potions perhaps. But, as the game progresses, player-made items lose their luster; mob-dropped items invariably become more powerful, more sought-after, and much more readily available. There seems to be this strange ebb and flow in the crafting systems. Crafting is important very early, and very late in the game, but in the 50 or so levels between it is mostly ignored (much like the mid-level character levels and zones … but that’s another topic). Sure, crafters can produce some odds and ends here and there that player “collectors” might be interested in, but I’d venture to guess that 90% of what crafters make in-game is strictly “skill leveling trash” that just gets DE’d or sold to a vendor. I find all that production of vendor trash just to level a skill a strange and unrewarding dynamic. So, while I like the idea of player crafting, I find its implementation very poorly thought-out in most games. I’d love to see a more robust crafting system that actually kept pace with or eclipsed mob-dropped items in quality.
My favorite tradeskill often varies. I try, as I’m sure most folks do, to develop a tradeskill that has a symbiotic relationship to my character’s class. Either that, or, yes, I’ll admit it, I have created “crafters” … characters that are made simply to produce the few money-making items in the crafting system.
Yeah, if done well it can be an awesome sphere in its own right but if not done well it can be a useless side sphere that is only used when forced upon us!
OakKnower said:I enjoy tradeskilling but I have some criticisms about some of it. If I have to spend a lot of coin and time to create an item that becomes obsolete relatively quickly than from my point of view the invesment was not worth the result. There ought to be some equivalency. Others in these forums have mentioned how tradeskilling and crafting should be integral to adventuring. Another idea is to incorporate a system where there is an active team approach to crafting. Both of these ideas are excellent examples of a more integrated and social tradeskilling system. It would be great to see work toward those concepts (or similar concepts) in Pantheon.
Not sure I have a favorite tradeskill though. Armors over weapons, food consumables over potion consumables, enchanting and jewel crafting were favorites generally speaking.
Yeah, that is an interesting idea and one I could see working if some thought was put into it :)
Warlored said:I've never enjoyed crafting. I find it to tedious and don't have the patience for it.
If strictly gathering then I can handle it. If a trade was ever created that didn't involve much of the "crafting" portion then I might be on board.
I'm probably the minority in this topic though. :)
oooo what if a "treasure hunter" was a thing! lol
-War
That is fair enough man, it's not for everyone, I have friends who hate it and think I am mad for liking it but each to their own, it can play an important part in the overall balance of the game, economy etc. so if done well, it has it's place but I can understand if you don't want to participate :)
internalprime8 said:I usually find them tedious as well. I'm only going on tradeskills in EQ and WoW as that's what I'm familiar with. I just remember them being money sinks with almost no worth until you maxed them out. Even along the way, the stuff you could make that were wearable items were typically under-powered compared to the droppable stuff.
I did enjoy some of the more trivial tradeskills like fishing and brewing just for fun.
Yeah, if crafting isn't done well, it can be a very boring hassle that many choose to do without, myself included but crafting done well, is a whole new world of its own and I can lose myself crafting for hours! :)
I've never been a huge fan of tradeskills and generally don't partake, though if someone enjoys being a full time tradeskiller thats cool and I hope the game has a great system. Where I DID like tradeskilling is when it is involved in a quest. For some reason it doesnt seem tedious to me then. Im not talking "Make me 25 steel ignots!" tyoe quests but thinking more along the line of the ring quests in Velious or something like the Griffon quest in VG (pretty sure I had to craft somewhere on that quest line).
Tradeskills provide a nice objective for down times since I typically enjoy smaller guilds with limited raid capibilities.
I have always found harvesting to be more relaxing than tedious. Its an opportunity to explore different areas, looking for the best spot to farm materials, and a way to make some side cash. I can get into a zen state and harvest for hours. Crafting itself I view as more of a social thing than as a way to advance my own character. Nothing beats stocking up the guild bank with potions, food, and other buffs to ensure everyone is topped off. As posted above, not everyone enjoys tradeskills so being able to provide that service is rewarding for me and it makes for happy guildmates who don't have to waste their time doing something they don't like. For me the VG system was fun and engaging requiring more thought than the one click crafting of other games. Tradeskills also provide important depth to the economy through material sinks and interdependence of differening tradeskills.
I usually find myself leaning toward cooking and/or alchemy just becuase they seem the most beneficial for everyone. I would really enjoy smithing and weaponry if the craftables were on par with similar level drops. It would also be nice to see visually differences between crafted and dropped items. If I spend my game time crafting a sword I want it too look different than the one that dropped of that rat.
I absolutely love trade skilling! I am always an adventurer first, but will max out any and every tradeskill I can. I feel it makes the game feel more like a world. You have to go out and intereact with the world to harvest. Crafted good are either worn on your adventurer, displayed on your house, used for building, consumed or you can sell the crafted goods to others. It is a realxing pastime I do while having my morning coffee or just some downtime, yet I can still be in the world.
Yes it is tedious, and I hope it stays that way :) If crafted goods are to be special, and worthwhile, not everyone should have a max level tradeskiller (just like you have to earn adventurer levels). What I would rather see is crafting be more enjoyable so that people who normally do not enjoy tradeskilling will enjoy it. I do not feel it should be a neccessary part of the game because I do not want to see people that do not like tradeskilling forced to craft to have a BiS item. As long as the crafted goods can be sold it minimizes that issue. It also makes crafting more useful - Tradeskillers love when their items are valuable. It is very disappointing to be a max level crafter in a game and find out that there isn't much worth to it. which brings me to answer your final question Kilsin which is my favorite? It was carpenter from EQ2 because the things I crafted (housing items, storage boxes, repair kits) were wanted. They were vsual too - I could see what I had crafted. I like fishing in most games too (archeage fishing was fun!).
edit:
Azotate said:Tradeskills provide a nice objective for down times since I typically enjoy smaller guilds with limited raid capibilities.
I have always found harvesting to be more relaxing than tedious. Its an opportunity to explore different areas, looking for the best spot to farm materials, and a way to make some side cash. I can get into a zen state and harvest for hours. Crafting itself I view as more of a social thing than as a way to advance my own character. Nothing beats stocking up the guild bank with potions, food, and other buffs to ensure everyone is topped off. As posted above, not everyone enjoys tradeskills so being able to provide that service is rewarding for me and it makes for happy guildmates who don't have to waste their time doing something they don't like. For me the VG system was fun and engaging requiring more thought than the one click crafting of other games. Tradeskills also provide important depth to the economy through material sinks and interdependence of differening tradeskills.
I usually find myself leaning toward cooking and/or alchemy just becuase they seem the most beneficial for everyone. I would really enjoy smithing and weaponry if the craftables were on par with similar level drops. It would also be nice to see visually differences between crafted and dropped items. If I spend my game time crafting a sword I want it too look different than the one that dropped of that rat.
I got to read your post after I posted Azotate, and I agree that for me it is more relaxing than tedious. It is social in that you get to interact with others: give gifts and take orders. Good post.
Garmr said:I've never been a huge fan of tradeskills and generally don't partake, though if someone enjoys being a full time tradeskiller thats cool and I hope the game has a great system. Where I DID like tradeskilling is when it is involved in a quest. For some reason it doesnt seem tedious to me then. Im not talking "Make me 25 steel ignots!" tyoe quests but thinking more along the line of the ring quests in Velious or something like the Griffon quest in VG (pretty sure I had to craft somewhere on that quest line).
Yeah, nice man, that is a good stance to take :)
Azotate said:Tradeskills provide a nice objective for down times since I typically enjoy smaller guilds with limited raid capibilities.
I have always found harvesting to be more relaxing than tedious. Its an opportunity to explore different areas, looking for the best spot to farm materials, and a way to make some side cash. I can get into a zen state and harvest for hours. Crafting itself I view as more of a social thing than as a way to advance my own character. Nothing beats stocking up the guild bank with potions, food, and other buffs to ensure everyone is topped off. As posted above, not everyone enjoys tradeskills so being able to provide that service is rewarding for me and it makes for happy guildmates who don't have to waste their time doing something they don't like. For me the VG system was fun and engaging requiring more thought than the one click crafting of other games. Tradeskills also provide important depth to the economy through material sinks and interdependence of differening tradeskills.
I usually find myself leaning toward cooking and/or alchemy just becuase they seem the most beneficial for everyone. I would really enjoy smithing and weaponry if the craftables were on par with similar level drops. It would also be nice to see visually differences between crafted and dropped items. If I spend my game time crafting a sword I want it too look different than the one that dropped of that rat.
Nice Azotate, it is fairly relaxing for me too, the whole gather/harvest and then craft, it costs nothing but time and you can just escape from everything, it's a pretty cool feeling :)
Zarriya said:I absolutely love trade skilling! I am always an adventurer first, but will max out any and every tradeskill I can. I feel it makes the game feel more like a world. You have to go out and intereact with the world to harvest. Crafted good are either worn on your adventurer, displayed on your house, used for building, consumed or you can sell the crafted goods to others. It is a realxing pastime I do while having my morning coffee or just some downtime, yet I can still be in the world.
Yes it is tedious, and I hope it stays that way :) If crafted goods are to be special, and worthwhile, not everyone should have a max level tradeskiller (just like you have to earn adventurer levels). What I would rather see is crafting be more enjoyable so that people who normally do not enjoy tradeskilling will enjoy it. I do not feel it should be a neccessary part of the game because I do not want to see people that do not like tradeskilling forced to craft to have a BiS item. As long as the crafted goods can be sold it minimizes that issue. It also makes crafting more useful - Tradeskillers love when their items are valuable. It is very disappointing to be a max level crafter in a game and find out that there isn't much worth to it. which brings me to answer your final question Kilsin which is my favorite? It was carpenter from EQ2 because the things I crafted (housing items, storage boxes, repair kits) were wanted. They were vsual too - I could see what I had crafted. I like fishing in most games too (archeage fishing was fun!).
edit:
Azotate said:Tradeskills provide a nice objective for down times since I typically enjoy smaller guilds with limited raid capibilities.
I have always found harvesting to be more relaxing than tedious. Its an opportunity to explore different areas, looking for the best spot to farm materials, and a way to make some side cash. I can get into a zen state and harvest for hours. Crafting itself I view as more of a social thing than as a way to advance my own character. Nothing beats stocking up the guild bank with potions, food, and other buffs to ensure everyone is topped off. As posted above, not everyone enjoys tradeskills so being able to provide that service is rewarding for me and it makes for happy guildmates who don't have to waste their time doing something they don't like. For me the VG system was fun and engaging requiring more thought than the one click crafting of other games. Tradeskills also provide important depth to the economy through material sinks and interdependence of differening tradeskills.
I usually find myself leaning toward cooking and/or alchemy just becuase they seem the most beneficial for everyone. I would really enjoy smithing and weaponry if the craftables were on par with similar level drops. It would also be nice to see visually differences between crafted and dropped items. If I spend my game time crafting a sword I want it too look different than the one that dropped of that rat.
I got to read your post after I posted Azotate, and I agree that for me it is more relaxing than tedious. It is social in that you get to interact with others: give gifts and take orders. Good post.
Yeah, nice Zarriya, I am an adventurer first too but I love harvesting/crafting to break up the killing and the grind with a more peaceful and relaxing grind lol ;)
I'm a big fan of tradeskills. They're something I usually work on while /lfg waiting for an adventuring party, or at the end of a session before I log out for the evening. I usually worked on whichever tradeskill best complemented my character. In EQ I played a ranger, so I initially maxed out fletching. Later when the cultural armor was introduced I maxed out smithing as well.
I definitely like trade skills and think they are integral to the game.
At times I don't feel like finding a group or adventuring or just don't have a lot of time to be on so I'll work on trades. I don't really have a favorite, I tend to pick skills that compliment my class or guild.
I'm a tradeskill addict. :P In every game I've played that has any sort of crafting system, I will do every last one of them. Even cooking in un-modded Skyrim, lol. I think I just get an inordinate amount of enjoyment from creating things, even if there's little purpose for the product or in making it myself. If I have to choose a favorite, I suppose I'd say cooking. I think for that, specifically, I get both the fun of making something semi-useful, and the satisfaction of feeling I'm not wasting things. It sort of started in a lot of games with looking in my bags, finding assorted animal parts, and thinking "There's got to be something I can do with this stuff so it's not just a bunch of trash clogging up space until I vendor it." That sort of evolved into a weird joy of having a huge collection of various snacks and meals that I'd hand out to group members all the time, lol. (Probably part of why people in some guilds I've been in jokingly called me Mom, 'cause I was always making sure the "family" had food for the trip!) It doesn't hurt that, in most games, cooking's end products tend to retain their usefulness. I'm one of those crazy do-all-the-things people, though, so it never ends with cooking. In games where you're limited to a few of the available tradeskills, I'll make alts (for their own sake, because I enjoy playing a few different classes, as well) and get my make-all-the-things fix by spreading the other crafting types across the alts I like.
I agree with others here who've mentioned finding crafting/crafted products useless for most of a character's life in other games. I love the heck out of Brad's idea here about keeping dropped and crafted items separate but needed and useful throughout, and I love a lot of the suggestions in that thread for tradeskill types that would fill various needs. It's also nice when the crafting process itself is more involved than "chuck these things into a box and hit combine." Not the products themselves or the specific tradeskills or anything, but a blend of just the actual *method* of crafting in EQ2, FFXIV, and (going by what I've read, because I have no first-hand experience with it) Vanguard would feel just about perfect to me. (They're a lot more time consuming than having the ingredients and pressing "go" though, so if a lot of people already dread tradeskilling, that may make it worse. ;P ) They feel more like playing the game than just slogging through a few levels of a tradeskill. You have different skills to use, conditions change during the crafting process, and you have think a bit about the which skills to use in which order to get the best result possible while conditions change. It's kind of fun. :) EQ2's is more of a reactionary process--using the right ability at the right time to counter something, while FFXIV's tends to be more planning-based but with a need for flexibility in your plan so you don't decrease a skill's effectiveness when something pops up or to take advantage of a favorable change. Even if the method itself isn't complex, I still enjoy turning the trash in my inventory into something useful.
I love the idea of valuable and rewarding trade skills, not trade skills for the sake of having trade skills. I thought EQ did a pretty good job in general with trade skills. It was very hard to max them, as it should be, and some pretty decent gear/tools could be created. I think trades should be just as hard and challenging to level as player levels. In my opinion, if it takes months to reach max character level by killing enemies and swinging your sword or casting spells to gain "experience" in such matters and level, then it should take just as long to reach max skill in smithing for example by smelting ore, swinging a hammer, different quenching techniques, etc.
I think there have always been huge missed opportunities with trade skills in MMOs. They can also be a means to really personify your character and build your reputation within the world. If there are only a handful of master smiths in the land, people come to you for your services. I could even see it becoming a small business within the player economy. Maybe you could post fliers in nearby cities promoting your craft. People could then put in orders or requests for goods, or services if they provide their own materials. Maybe when you first start out you use a city's forge and may pay a tax or fee for doing so. But after you gain skill and money, you can buy your own forge and keep it at your player house where you have your shop and treat with customers.
I also love a lot of the class specific skills like Research for instance. It really fits nicely with the caster class lore. They are supposed to be students of the arcane, and it’s really cool to "learn" a new spell from pieces of parchment found while adventuring.
As far as a trade I would love to see...I would definitely say Cartography. I know there are tons of other threads about in game maps/mini maps etc, but I think there is a huge opportunity here for player created maps via trade skill. I am a big map buff IRL, and I would love to have cool "artsy" maps in game with fantastic sea monsters drawn in the oceans, dragons drawn circling mountain peaks etc. I think this would be a cool trade to differentiate between the races too. Different races may have different art styles, or different points of interest to notate on a map. Maybe a Dark Myr map maker would be sure to make note of areas with very dry hot climates that would be harmful to them, or go to great lengths to point out an oasis in a desert to allow a reprieve from the hostile elements. As far as exactly how detailed the maps are, mini map availability, or "GPS" and player location icons go, I'll leave that discussion in other threads where they belong, but as a lover of maps, I would love to be able to create cool in game maps that have form as well as function.
I love to craft. Vanguard was far and away the best implementation. It was meaningful, hard to master, and was a viable alternative to the raid-mill. In general, VG, EQ2, and FFXIV have had the best systems that were easy to learn and rewarded strategy, gear, and skill.
Really, I'll be happy with anything that isn't simply click-to-combine. Improvements upon VG:
* Transferable recipes. Once i craft a few of a thing, it would be sweet to be able to jot down the recipe and pass it to someone who doesn't yet know the recipe. Maybe (to prevent market saturation) it's a direct teaching. Come craft with me and learn the recipe i'm working on? Then "rare drop" or "raid drop" recipe's don't have the sting of "i love crafting, why are you making me raid?"
* Grind reduction. Unlike combat, crafting is usually implemented as a solo activity. Repetitious fights are okay when the people you do it with change. Crafting 1000 daggers in a more-than-click system is just lame. Tradeskills level most efficiently by providing work orders (maybe players can file them!) and discovering/first-crafting new recipes. If i have to craft more than say 5 of the same item just to decon/vendor them, its going to detract.
* Master of all crafts. Usually controversial, but I really appreciate FFXIV's system of class swapping. While it may not make sense (in this game) to do that for combat, it always makes sense for crafters. Maybe gate it with mastery. Much like artificial limits of "daily" quests, artificially limiting what i can harvest (i can reap cotton, but can't chop down a tree?) is just rediculous. Likewise, if the journey to master is long and involved and crafters have epic tools and gear just like combat, then you really wont see many people topping out multiple professions (who wouldn't have done it anyway with alts). FFXIV has an open class system but it's no small feat to cap them all. In fact, it's more efficient to roll alts because you can craft concurrently, whereas letting a single toon access all trades means you have to stop advancing one to advance another.
* Social over market over vendor. Make trades a social thing. VG had trade interdependence for a few items (housing, ships), but they linked up through a market. Better would be to have the purchaser put down a frame and then the crafters group up and tailor, smith, woodwork a house/boat/etc into existence. This experience should trump "just buying the parts of the market". And as a crafter it should be more optimal to participate there then just list items on market or sell to vendor.
~TL;DR~
Make it like VG but more social and less restrictive. ;)